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 Xca|iber wrote:


GW has sunk an absurd amount of money into a case in which they lost 2/3 of the claims (not including ones they doubled-back on before judgement), and are now being hoisted upon their own petard in a risky appeals case that they cannot escape. This entire freezing of CH's assets (in the hope that CH will fold under the financial pressure) is a pretty clear sign that GW is getting desperate to get out of this case.

The silliest part about this is that, as has been pointed out by people more expert than I, GW has spent more money photocopies for this case than CHS has cleared as profit during their entire existence.

GW would have been far better off talking to CHS up front and working out a "here's some money, go do something else" agreement than they have been in pursuing this case.

Saldiven wrote:

 Xca|iber wrote:


GW has sunk an absurd amount of money into a case in which they lost 2/3 of the claims (not including ones they doubled-back on before judgement), and are now being hoisted upon their own petard in a risky appeals case that they cannot escape. This entire freezing of CH's assets (in the hope that CH will fold under the financial pressure) is a pretty clear sign that GW is getting desperate to get out of this case.

The silliest part about this is that, as has been pointed out by people more expert than I, GW has spent more money photocopies for this case than CHS has cleared as profit during their entire existence.

GW would have been far better off talking to CHS up front and working out a "here's some money, go do something else" agreement than they have been in pursuing this case.

Unfortunately your suggestion is taking the short view of the problem. GW is trying to take the long view in so far as precedent is concerned.
Yes paying off CHS to shut down may have been cheep solution to the CHS problem but then what do you do about WhersMySettlement Studios, GWshouldPayMeToo Studios, and GimmeMoney Studios, who are all other companies run by different people doing the the same thing CHS was doing.

The best I can tell is GW is looking at it as, Once we have a ruling in our favor then our C&D bully tactic will carry more weight and work even more effectively, and we can just scare all the other little studios into submission without having to pay settlements.

You understand that almost the exact opposite has happened? That, while you're correct they've avoided setting a precedent for paying people off, they have exposed how little they claimed was defensible, leaving a much clearer picture of where the line is, and therefore allowing anyone wishing to produce add on and alternate parts to know what they can and can't do.

If rewinding to day one were possible, licensing was probably the best win/win for all parties, but that ship has long since sailed.

I would be more worried about that if GW showed *any* sign of being able to look at things long-term. In that regard, I think they fail spectacularly.

The Spots the Space Marine was a great example of this- when pressed by the BBC about why exactly the company was trying to claim ownership of such generic science fiction words, a spokesperson from GW came out saying the company has a blanket "no communication with the media" stance. Seriously, are they ing Exxon or BP that they need to create such an absolutely absurd policy, considering how *LITTLE* the world cares about them (and indeed, all other tabletop wargaming companies). But no, let's give the finger to people who have a casual interest in the topic, that'll definitely net us some points.

Seriously, GW deserves every monetary punishment this case can give them. They thought they could strong-arm other companies into submission, and when that didn't work they started throwing money at the project like they were building a Finecast rocket to the moon! Except, just like Finecast, the whole plan was full of holes.

I like WHFB and 40k and all but, damn, the company is shockingly deplorable for a purveyor of plastic miniatures.

They said that to the BBC because their stance was morally and legally indefensible.

That in itself supports the supposition that GW are either very badly organised or actively malicious about IP matters. (Possibly both, of course.)

 keltikhoa wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 Xca|iber wrote:


GW has sunk an absurd amount of money into a case in which they lost 2/3 of the claims (not including ones they doubled-back on before judgement), and are now being hoisted upon their own petard in a risky appeals case that they cannot escape. This entire freezing of CH's assets (in the hope that CH will fold under the financial pressure) is a pretty clear sign that GW is getting desperate to get out of this case.

The silliest part about this is that, as has been pointed out by people more expert than I, GW has spent more money photocopies for this case than CHS has cleared as profit during their entire existence.

GW would have been far better off talking to CHS up front and working out a "here's some money, go do something else" agreement than they have been in pursuing this case.

Unfortunately your suggestion is taking the short view of the problem. GW is trying to take the long view in so far as precedent is concerned.
Yes paying off CHS to shut down may have been cheep solution to the CHS problem but then what do you do about WhersMySettlement Studios, GWshouldPayMeToo Studios, and GimmeMoney Studios, who are all other companies run by different people doing the the same thing CHS was doing.

The best I can tell is GW is looking at it as, Once we have a ruling in our favor then our C&D bully tactic will carry more weight and work even more effectively, and we can just scare all the other little studios into submission without having to pay settlements.

If GW was really concerned about that, why not pay off CHS now? There's a ruling (partially) in GW's favor on the books. GW has already shown that it is willing to litigate all the way to a jury trial.

All of GW's gains (such as they are) could get undone on appeal. GW could expose itself to millions of dollars in costs and attorney's fees. GW could see the kind of precedent set that would bind its hands in any similar litigation. Just as before the trial, GW is facing the prospect of, in Tom Kirby's own words, far too much cost for far too little gain, even if it manages to prevail in the appeal. Besides, whatever 'message' GW wanted to send to the industry has already become muddled in the extreme.

GW's behavior is merely institutional ignorance, shortsightedness, and self-righteousness. It affects all sorts of organizations. The existence of the 3rd party bits industry stuck in Tom Kirby's craw for some insane reason. GW set out on the total war path convinced of its own righteousness. It was going to burn them all down starting with Chapterhouse Studios. All those businesses were going to fold like a house of cards.

Having taken that position, GW has been, institutionally, unwilling to back down from it, regardless of the cost. PAY someone that you sued? PAY a thief for the privilege of stealing from you? Admit defeat when your righteousness should have been obvious to anyone looking at the issues?

Of course, things have gotten so bad for GW that even Tom Kirby has publicly lamented proceeding down this course. Can you imagine GW trying to file another, similar lawsuit with those words of Kirby's hanging in the air? Fiduciary duty anyone? Having said that litigation is a losing process that wastes "indecent" amounts of investors' money, Mr. Kirby is going to have a hard time being Chairman if GW goes down that path again.

So why doesn't GW slink away to lick its wounds? Pride, maybe? Could be stubbornness. But what other ammunition does GW have to prevent the appeal from going forward? Chapterhouse's motion indicates that the parties have agreed to immediately file a joint motion to lift the hold on the appellate briefing schedule if the judge finds in favor of Chapterhouse on the judgement issue.

Silly question time. Could this cost GW it's monopoly on producing 40k type space marines. If so could that drive GW prices down, as others start to produce them.?

Sorry, yes @Azreal13 and @weeble1000 you are correct. My theory was simply what they may have been thinking at the start of the whole thing. Which was the time someone would be deciding between paying off CHS and going threw the lawsuit.

Just speculation on my part.

As to why they do not settle now, weeble1000 you said it much better than I could. Honestly I believe its pride. GW apparently does not know its own fluff and is following the fall of the Emperors Children

 loki old fart wrote:
Silly question time. Could this cost GW it's monopoly on producing 40k type space marines.

Technically, they never had one.

If so could that drive GW prices down, as others start to produce them.?

Theoretically yes, but in reality, not really, plenty of companies are already making variations of armoured space soldiers, we haven't really seen much price supression as a result

 Azreal13 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Silly question time. Could this cost GW it's monopoly on producing 40k type space marines.

Technically, they never had one.

If so could that drive GW prices down, as others start to produce them.?

Theoretically yes, but in reality, not really, plenty of companies are already making variations of armoured space soldiers, we haven't really seen much price supression as a result

I was thinking, or was it hoping that if GW loses this case. It could be the final nail in kirby's coffin. And his replacement might stack em high sell em low. To drive away the competition.

Anything's possible, but if it were me, I wouldn't cut prices, that has too many run-on implications financially, but finding a way of giving the consumer better VFM, or simply making a product people will be excited to pay the asking price for would both work.

But we digress, there's plenty of how to fix GW threads and this isn't one of them.

Well i hope CHS assets gets unfrozen soon, i will order some stuff just to help him/them.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Well i hope CHS assets gets unfrozen soon, i will order some stuff just to help him/them.

Seriously. I've looked over their products in the past and never been that interested in anything, but after all of this, I'm sure I can find something useful in their catalog. Anything to help the good guys in this fight.

I've been waiting for Raven Guard themed bits like shields, helmets and weapons, don't much like the current ones.

I can recommend both the Land Raider extra armour and Stormraven extension kits (although the latter does require some skill to make work)

I also have a couple of their Eagle shields which, painted up appropriately, made excellent Raven Guard Terminator Stormshields, and their magnetised weapon turrets are great and fit either Razorbacks or Stormravens.

The alien pod and space bug walls are both excellent. I also have their jump packs, and they're good, although there's a lot of competition for those at the moment (which was not the case when I got them, and so they were a lifesaver then).

I'm just dissapointed their truscale marines dissapeared, which I find ironic, since GW's claim to "space marines" went out the door with this law suit

Not really on topic, but GW has appointed a new CEO, former Chief Operating Officer/Financial Officer Kevin Rowntree: http://www.paintingbuddha.com/blogs/news/18102375-games-workshop-announces-new-ceo

Tom Kirby stays on as chairman but is no longer acting CEO.

Tomorrow is supposed to be the date of the latest hearing, so I suppose we can expect some news by next week.

 OsitioRojo wrote:
Not really on topic, but GW has appointed a new CEO, former Chief Operating Officer/Financial Officer Kevin Rowntree: http://www.paintingbuddha.com/blogs/news/18102375-games-workshop-announces-new-ceo

Tom Kirby stays on as chairman but is no longer acting CEO.

Tomorrow is supposed to be the date of the latest hearing, so I suppose we can expect some news by next week.

As I understand from the docket, the hearing tomorrow is so that Nick Villacci can testify about Chapterhouse's assets. The rulings on Chapterhouse's motion to stay execution of the judgment, waive the bond requirement, and quash the citation to discover assets won't come until at least the 17th.

 Guildsman wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Well i hope CHS assets gets unfrozen soon, i will order some stuff just to help him/them.

Seriously. I've looked over their products in the past and never been that interested in anything, but after all of this, I'm sure I can find something useful in their catalog. Anything to help the good guys in this fight.

I've been getting more and more models to paint for friends that have CHS parts on them.

If anything this case has probably helped CHS more than hurt them, at least I think it will in the long run when it's all over.

Apparently GW didn't learn anything from the 2 Live Crew incident of the early 90's.

 loki old fart wrote:
Silly question time. Could this cost GW it's monopoly on producing 40k type space marines. If so could that drive GW prices down, as others start to produce them.?

I think whatever the exact ruling will be, GW wont like it. Even today you can just crank out interchangeable bits or come pretty close designwise. I think once the gunsmoke has cleared on this one, even without companies being able to produce original warhammer parts or name them thus, there will be more of them making stuff you can use for warhammer. However, there are two roads this can go from here:
A: Other competitors pricing themselves close to GW. This allready happens. Look at Kromlech. The stuff is nice and I'd have ordered quite a lot of stuff from them allready if they were at least a little bit cheaper than GW.
B: Other competitors start producing WH-usable stuff for cheap. If I can get a box of 40 soldiers for less than 35€ in other systems (hello bolt action), it sure as hell is possible with Space Marines and Astra Mutilarium... I mean Kosmos Paratroopers and Imperial Guard, lol.

We need all other companies to side with A for A to happen. We need only one or two going the B route for all others to adjust their attitude and their prices. Now, I don't have much faith in any company, but I do believe we'll have at least some good guys.

As for why GW does not want to settle - maybe they do, by now. However, seeing as how chapterhouse has them by their balls, why should they agree to a settlement? They'll squeeze lawyer fees, compensations and all the other stuff out anyways AND have the moral satisfaction to see GW crying for mommy. Plus, if there is a ruling on what is ok and what not, that is still something very much desirable for the whole industry, so wasting that chance would be disappointing for all concerned (except GW, but who's asking them, right?).

keltikhoa wrote:
Yes paying off CHS to shut down may have been cheep solution to the CHS problem but then what do you do about WhersMySettlement Studios, GWshouldPayMeToo Studios, and GimmeMoney Studios, who are all other companies run by different people doing the the same thing CHS was doing.

This is the reason why such agreements include non-disclosure agreements as part of the settlement. In that way no one outside the two parties necessarily knows if someone was paid or how much.

I imagine behind closed doors GW are trying to settle and be done with this, but they are still trying to settle from a position of power they no longer have.

Before the case they could have said "We'll give you $x to shut down and never speak of this again" because back then they seemed like a threat. I imagine they are making that kind of offer now and CH has absolutely no reason to take it. I also imagine his lawyers would advise him against that as they want to stop precedents from being set here.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I imagine behind closed doors GW are trying to settle and be done with this..

I really don't believe this. I think they want to grind Chapterhouse into the ground and win on default. Even with weakened IP, they'll have demonstrated a willingness to crush anyone that even thinks of doing this in the future. I expect Kirby and friends think that's well worth the cost.

Yeah this is a battle of attrition and Kirby has probably calculated (quite accurately) that GW can outlast its opponent, if they can freeze CHS assets.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I imagine behind closed doors GW are trying to settle and be done with this, but they are still trying to settle from a position of power they no longer have.

After all this time and everything Nick has had to go through why would he settle now?

Unless it's because of the frozen assets and how badly that mey be affecting his personal finances I can't see a reason for CHS to settle.

 prplehippo wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
I imagine behind closed doors GW are trying to settle and be done with this, but they are still trying to settle from a position of power they no longer have.

After all this time and everything Nick has had to go through why would he settle now?

Unless it's because of the frozen assets and how badly that mey be affecting his personal finances I can't see a reason for CHS to settle.

With no ability to conduct business, even if his personal finances aren't compromised, he's still under financial siege. All GW has to do is outlast him. It's common enough of a legal practice to not be shocking at this point.

 Jimsolo wrote:
With no ability to conduct business, even if his personal finances aren't compromised, he's still under financial siege. All GW has to do is outlast him. It's common enough of a legal practice to not be shocking at this point.

I'm surprised a tactic like this is still allowed by judges.

It's basically GW saying "Your Honour, we know we can't really "win" this case and have no ground to stand on many of our claims; so we're going to just freeze his assets and outlast him so he goes out of business. Oh, and we'll probably do that to anyone else making parts compatible with our games."

Really? This is still allowed?

 prplehippo wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
With no ability to conduct business, even if his personal finances aren't compromised, he's still under financial siege. All GW has to do is outlast him. It's common enough of a legal practice to not be shocking at this point.

I'm surprised a tactic like this is still allowed by judges.

It's basically GW saying "Your Honour, we know we can't really "win" this case and have no ground to stand on many of our claims; so we're going to just freeze his assets and outlast him so he goes out of business. Oh, and we'll probably do that to anyone else making parts compatible with our games."

Really? This is still allowed?

Since the judge said he'll unfreeze the finances if they don't submit a good reason why he shouldn't within a week, I think it's kind of not allowed. Some light at the end of a tunnel here...

I hope so, because CHS deserve their time in court for appeal, that would be just. GW shouldn't win by strangling their opponent through legal means denying them the opportunity to get to court, where's the justice in that? Big companies do this to little ones all the time, it's one of a number of ways that the big guys nearly always win.

Even if the asset freeze is lifted, CHS will have taken a blow and it will have cost GW almost nothing to have applied another underhanded stalling tactic. GW and their legal team have done far worse during the last four years and received little consequence.