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 Knight wrote:
I'd like to have my rules for Bipandra. :(

If you mean the profile, it is available already: http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/downloads/army-lists/%5Ben%5DNewProfiles.pdf

 Erasoketa wrote:

 Knight wrote:
I'd like to have my rules for Bipandra. :(

If you mean the profile, it is available already: http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/downloads/army-lists/%5Ben%5DNewProfiles.pdf

Bipandra is not available for Aconticemento though, which Knight mentioned as playing.

What is very strange is that she is available for the Military Orders and NeoTerra but not ASA.

 Savnock wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
10 models is still the best course, simply the lower tier models will be replaced by higher tier.

ISS player here beggin very much to differ. Warband spam will become even more common like Knight says, perhaps balanced by an extra Total Reaction unit or two to protect that larger order base.

On the upside, I bet we see a LOT more TAGs, which is usually fun.

Also my 5-man Hsien team will finally see the light of day, woot!

Warband spam can happen at any points, its not a dire thing that only 400 points will bring, the fact that we do not see them at least regularly is a testament of its effectiveness.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Erasoketa wrote:

 Knight wrote:
I'd like to have my rules for Bipandra. :(

If you mean the profile, it is available already: http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/downloads/army-lists/%5Ben%5DNewProfiles.pdf

Bipandra is not available for Aconticemento though, which Knight mentioned as playing.

What is very strange is that she is available for the Military Orders and NeoTerra but not ASA.

Ah, she's a Fusilier. I can field her in the general force, should have enough of other models to build 300 - 400 list. I'd love to know how her medikit works with Doctor skill. It's nothing critical, especially with December being typically slow month for gaming. I'll try to play a game at 400 points on 6'x4'. I'm hoping CB will publish new scenarios in the next 7-10 days.

 Knight wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Erasoketa wrote:

 Knight wrote:
I'd like to have my rules for Bipandra. :(

If you mean the profile, it is available already: http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/downloads/army-lists/%5Ben%5DNewProfiles.pdf

Bipandra is not available for Aconticemento though, which Knight mentioned as playing.

What is very strange is that she is available for the Military Orders and NeoTerra but not ASA.

Ah, she's a Fusilier. I can field her in the general force, should have enough of other models to build 300 - 400 list. I'd love to know how her medikit works with Doctor skill. It's nothing critical, especially with December being typically slow month for gaming. I'll try to play a game at 400 points on 6'x4'. I'm hoping CB will publish new scenarios in the next 7-10 days.

CB say 4 new ITS mission should be added by the end of the year, and the current ones rewriting for a total of 9 mission.


As for hordes on a proper set up table, not to light or heavy on terrain you should be able to thin the out, just like at 300pts.

I actually play 300pts on a 6 x 4 sometimes, it makes for quite an interesting (and different) playing experience.

Waiting now to see some mental warband lists, and beyond that a painted force of such a list on the tabletop

I'm not worried about warband spam, though that's me being biased because I don't think my group would ever really do it.

I am, however, interested in it because, as said earlier, it should make TAGs more common. I love the TAG models and is disappoints me to see them so underused, at least in my area.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:


Warband spam can happen at any points, its not a dire thing that only 400 points will bring, the fact that we do not see them at least regularly is a testament of its effectiveness.

Okay, quite right about 400 points being no different for warband spam. Good point. But I seriously disagree with your "warband spam is not effective because we don't see it a lot" statement.

Being a guy who regularly fields 8-Kuang Shi lists with a ton of nasties riding those cheap orders, I actually do see a lot of effectiveness thanks to warband spam. Pretty much everytime I do it, in fact.

The main reason that you don't see a lot of warband spam isn't that it's ineffective: in fact it's totally killer and potentially game-unbalancing.

The main reason you don't see warband spam is that Infinity players are generally nice people who don't build lists to exploit weaknesses in the rules. We know warband spam is powerful, but choose not to do it so that things stay fun. Just like PanO players don't field the Cutter in every single non-sectorial list they ever bring.

Fortunately Infinity players, unlike many 40K players, play the game to tell a cool story during their matches, and to let their opponent have fun too- not just to game the rules and win on technicalities. That's why I love Infinity!

And warband spam definitely does exploit a weakness in the order-pool mechanic, especially if your warbands are regular. They end up super-powering some serious ramboing from a harder unit, like Su Jians backed by Kuang Shi. With 5-point warband support, you can do that with at least two, mutually-supporting, rambos. And/or engineers keeping those rambos up and running, using a separate order group to do so. Facing such a list and going second, you are probably doomed unless you can castle like a mofo (which is a basic survival skill in Infinity, but surviving 2 simultaneous 9-order TAG or HI attacks is pretty damned impossible). If ISS had an actual TAG, their regular warbands would be broken. Fortunately the designers seem to have seen that and prevented it.

Irregular warband spam is less powerful, granted (just on a par with other powerful things like AD and TAGs, heavy camo, etc.). But regular-order warbands actually do break the game IMO.

Also, 20-30 models is a total pain both the to play and to play against: it takes a long time to move them, and ARO checks on your opponent's turn take FOREVER. So you're not only gaming the rules with warband spam, you're also hogging the table while you do it. Most Infinity players are too considerate to do this. Maybe once in a while for a lark like you might do HGL (this game is fun with "extreme" lists fielded occasionally to keep the meta-game guesswork fresh), but not on a regular basis.

I've been "that guy" that did warband spam before just for kicks, and while I did very well with the horde lists, I felt like a jerk for taking up 3/4ths of the table time and exploiting the order-pool mechanic.

I still play 16+-model lists (ISS and JSA) fairly regularly, but when I do so I speed through my orders and try not to rambo the crap out of most opponents. Oh, maybe except the guys in my group who will stomp me if I take it easy on them

I respect your opinion about rules balance PS, but warn you not to assume that player/tourney meta means that rules exploits aren't there. Remember that your fellow players may just be too nice to break the game ona regular basis

You have chosen 1 of 2 extremely cheap units that provide regular orders to build your argument around, neither of which are particularly spammable except for in the pair of sectorials they appear in.

I'd argue the reason people aren't spamming "warbands" like the ones you postulate they would isn't that they are too nice, but rather that only a small fraction of the player base are playing the armies necessary to do so.

People aren't and won't spam impetuous irregular warbands out the wazoo except in rare occasions because it's simply not practical, and that's what warbands are for the majority of forces.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
You have chosen 1 of 2 extremely cheap units that provide regular orders to build your argument around, neither of which are particularly spammable except for in the pair of sectorials they appear in.

I'd argue the reason people aren't spamming "warbands" like the ones you postulate they would isn't that they are too nice, but rather that only a small fraction of the player base are playing the armies necessary to do so.

People aren't and won't spam impetuous irregular warbands out the wazoo except in rare occasions because it's simply not practical, and that's what warbands are for the majority of forces.

...and if this were 40K everyone would suddenly be playing those armies (Caledonians and ISS), and yes you would see warband spam all over, just like you saw Grey Knights all over at one point. All you would have to do is buy the army (and paint it, which is another metagame barrier). Again, players of Infinity aren't jerks, so they're not all buying the army that breaks the game. In other words, they're too nice. You and I are actually arguing the same point, Drunkspleen

Doesn't change my core argument: warband spam exploits a hole in the mechanics. You don't see it much for metagame reasons (nice players who both won't exploit it in general, and who won't buy an army just to use the exploit). If Infinity players weren't generally upstanding folks, there would be an issue with the rules that might affect how fun things like tourneys would be. Fortunately Infinity attracts a higher caliber of player than 40K, IMHO.

Also, no need for quotes around warbands. It's a troop type and movement category in-game, not something someone on a forum made up.

No offense but doesn't this belong in the Infinity Forum, not the News and Rumors? This whole discussion has nothing to do with either news or rumors which is what I'm looking for.

ephrael wrote:
No offense but doesn't this belong in the Infinity Forum, not the News and Rumors? This whole discussion has nothing to do with either news or rumors which is what I'm looking for.

You're right, sorry!

We were originally discussing how the changes to the tourney formats (points allowance) might affect game balance. PsychoticStorm's right, they won't. Then I tangented, sorry

We don't see Warband Spam in this game because nobody is willing to BUY 34 Pretas or 25 Galwegian miniatures.
We don't see that kind of competitiveness in ITS because Infinity has not reach that level yet. Infinity is not yet a hugely popular game, with popularity competitiveness will come. Once the USA gaming scene becomes competitive with Infinity, many "grey areas" will appear in the rules.
IMHO, right now the basic core rulebook is not ready for bringing the game into a competitive scene.

By the way... I would prefer not to see Infinity becoming a competitive game, with ultra-competitive players. Rules are still too fragile for that.
Also, I've been having so much fun in tournaments and there was such a good atmosphere, good will and love for the game that I really don't want it ruined by "smart guys" coming with an Avatar and 32 Pretas, really.

Infinity O-12 has reported the following as December releases:

Uxia McNeill, SAS Version
Lt Stephen Rao, Bagh Mari
Celestial Guard Box (repack): Spitfire, Sniper, Kuang Shi Control Device, Hacker
Gorgos Squad (Tohaa TAG)
Morat Aggression Force Starter Pack

3 boxes, Rao and AT LAST! UXIA! That's going to be an insane release.

I'm not sure why a third Uxia is necessary to be honest.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not sure why a third Uxia is necessary to be honest.

A third one is not necessary, but the first one needed a resculpt soooooo bad. I've been waiting for this a lot of time. Now I hope the new mini won't suck

 Erasoketa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not sure why a third Uxia is necessary to be honest.

A third one is not necessary, but the first one needed a resculpt soooooo bad. I've been waiting for this a lot of time. Now I hope the new mini won't suck

Yeah, hopefully.

The point was more that her profiles are practically identical. The only difference is assault pistols on Covert Action and Pistol, AP CCW+MSV1on SAS Operative. If only they had modeled her with her shotgun instead of assault pistols for Covert Action.

So do we have any pics of the tohaa tag?
And there was me saying I wasn't going to spend after the crimbo splurge...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Erasoketa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not sure why a third Uxia is necessary to be honest.

A third one is not necessary, but the first one needed a resculpt soooooo bad. I've been waiting for this a lot of time. Now I hope the new mini won't suck

Yeah, hopefully.

The point was more that her profiles are practically identical. The only difference is assault pistols on Covert Action and Pistol, AP CCW+MSV1on SAS Operative. If only they had modeled her with her shotgun instead of assault pistols for Covert Action.

And the cammo in the SAS version Vs the Specialist Troop skill in the Covert Action version. Is one of the oldest characters, and the new profile is a consecuence of the campaign system and the mission objetives. The character is the favourite of the CEO, so I don't see CB eliminating one of the versions.

Having the shotgun would have made it much easier to proxy, yep.

 Eggs wrote:
So do we have any pics of the tohaa tag?
And there was me saying I wasn't going to spend after the crimbo splurge...

Sure:



Basically we won't have pictures of the Gorgos for a bit yet. That's a teaser shot of the step by step though.

ephrael wrote:No offense but doesn't this belong in the Infinity Forum, not the News and Rumors? This whole discussion has nothing to do with either news or rumors which is what I'm looking for.

At this point, yes, please!

Kanluwen wrote:Infinity O-12 has reported the following as December releases:

Uxia McNeill, SAS Version
Lt Stephen Rao, Bagh Mari
Celestial Guard Box (repack): Spitfire, Sniper, Kuang Shi Control Device, Hacker
Gorgos Squad (Tohaa TAG)
Morat Aggression Force Starter Pack

Whoa - potentially a very expensive month for me there!

Bear in mind that if that list is correct, the Celestial Guard are repacks not resculpts. Not aimed at you Alph, but just want to ensure people realize that this is likely going to signal the existing blisters going away for the Celestial Guard.

I'm really excited for Stephen Rao and the MAF starter.

I play PanO general list and I dont see any use of Rao, he is just a sitting target practice

The tohaa tag concept art looks awesome. When can we expect model pics?

Within the next week or so, I'd think...

 Sangarn wrote:
I play PanO general list and I dont see any use of Rao, he is just a sitting target practice

Yeah, that's because he is more effective as part of a Bagh-Mari Link Team. He's also one of the few 0 SWC Aconticemento Shock Army Lieutenants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Within the next week or so, I'd think...

I think sooner than that because of next week being Christmas, but it is dependent upon how fast the blogosphere gets their acts together. Corvus Belli does not really undercut their exclusives with the official previews.

 Sangarn wrote:
I play PanO general list and I dont see any use of Rao, he is just a sitting target practice

He's either a cheap lieutenant with good WIP or serves as a decoy while the real lieutenant - Knight of Holy Sepulchre moves into position. I wonder in how many pieces the model will be build. I'm hoping for an easy Spec Op conversion.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Infinity O-12 has reported the following as December releases:

Uxia McNeill, SAS Version
Lt Stephen Rao, Bagh Mari
Celestial Guard Box (repack): Spitfire, Sniper, Kuang Shi Control Device, Hacker
Gorgos Squad (Tohaa TAG)
Morat Aggression Force Starter Pack

OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG!

Fantastic news!

Oh I had been waiting for that Uxia resculpt for so long.