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...Ah, viral. Right.
Well, that's... immensely specific to being shot at by a very narrow set of enemy models - but when it happens, it's pretty nice.

Viral AND Shock.

And remember that the Bolts have Bioimmunity as well.

That's why I was interested in the rule in the first place

Really though, isn't shock even rarer than viral? I can't remember when I was last shot at with shock ammo.
(viral is another matter; I know two regular opponents who will not be happy with that bolt link team at all)

Well remember that this rule was written with the next book in mind.

They might be doing a huge, overall rules revamp in association with the new book where Shock Ammo becomes a bit more widespread.

Don't a lot of Tohaa have Viral Shenanigan Potential?

There is indeed a ton of Viral options in the Tohaa.

Plus the "Swarm Grenades" count as using the "Shock" special ammunition, forcing a BTS roll rather than an ARM roll like Shock ammo normally does.

Without Engineer, the Bolts are less appealing. The BS13 and ARM2 are great, but the price isn't, really. The prospect of tons of E/M grenades in a fireteam is pretty cool though.

Bioimmunity may be more useful as more SMGs come around. Against viral it's okay: Bolts already have an effective armor of 6 against Viral ammo, so the bioimmunity just pushes them further up the curve into Not-a-good-targetsville for Viral shooters. The rule will also come in handy when using Hazardous Environment rules.

Something which I think is still too new for people to really consider?

Swarm Grenades and Viral weaponry on the Tohaa. Bioimmunity is a rule for the new book, where we're also supposed to be getting at least one new Tohaa Sectorial.

Swarm Grenades are a circular template that remains on the table for a turn and anything coming into contact with it has to make a BTS roll(instead of ARM) per the rules for Shock special ammunition.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well remember that this rule was written with the next book in mind.

They might be doing a huge, overall rules revamp in association with the new book where Shock Ammo becomes a bit more widespread.

Okay. Would that mean revamp of existing profiles, new pts costs et al, or just weapons getting a tweak across the board?

 Bolognesus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well remember that this rule was written with the next book in mind.

They might be doing a huge, overall rules revamp in association with the new book where Shock Ammo becomes a bit more widespread.

Okay. Would that mean revamp of existing profiles, new pts costs et al, or just weapons getting a tweak across the board?

Don't know. It's just speculation at this point but there was a lot of confusion prior to Human Sphere.

 Bolognesus wrote:
Really though, isn't shock even rarer than viral? I can't remember when I was last shot at with shock ammo.
(viral is another matter; I know two regular opponents who will not be happy with that bolt link team at all)

Antipersonnel Mines are the most common mine, and they're innately "Shock".

I should think there will be just tweaks, there is no need for a massive re-vamp.

Quite a cool pic up on Angel's LifeInvader page

Bolt are another [No Expletive Filter 'workarounds' please! - Alpharius] profile for PanO général list ...
Kamau do better for less

the hacker with EM grenade with PH 11 is just ... stupid/suicidal( no one is ever gonna use this grenade with a hacker xD)
no good specialist ...

as for the use in sectorial list i dont know, i dont care. I don't like this idea of "only usefull in this sectorial list"


I'm starting to hate CB this days ...

 Absolutionis wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
Really though, isn't shock even rarer than viral? I can't remember when I was last shot at with shock ammo.
(viral is another matter; I know two regular opponents who will not be happy with that bolt link team at all)

Antipersonnel Mines are the most common mine, and they're innately "Shock".

...Well, that's one thing we might have to start actually playing right around here, then

 Sangarn wrote:
Bolt are another shittty profile for PanO général list ...
Kamau do better for less

the hacker with EM grenade with PH 11 is just ... stupid/suicidal( no one is ever gonna use this grenade with a hacker xD)
no good specialist ...

as for the use in sectorial list i dont know, i dont care. I don't like this idea of "only usefull in this sectorial list"


I'm starting to hate CB this days ...

BS13 missile launcher? better than a bog standard fusilier if you have the points for it. Having a shotgun along with the ML is also actually useful at short range at least (depending on target, of course).

 Sangarn wrote:
Bolt are another shittty profile for PanO général list ...
Kamau do better for less

the hacker with EM grenade with PH 11 is just ... stupid/suicidal( no one is ever gonna use this grenade with a hacker xD)
no good specialist ...

as for the use in sectorial list i dont know, i dont care. I don't like this idea of "only usefull in this sectorial list"

So everything should be made for the GENERIC list first, Sectorials being second?

Thank God you aren't a game designer.

so making units only usefull in sectorial list is the mark of a good game designer ?
What about making them usefull in general (wich is the most played in ITS) AND in sectorial ...

@Bolognesus: for the same price of your bolt ML you can have an nisse HMG ! You know MSV2 Mimetism ... and BS13

Vanilla Lists are played MORE often than Sectorials in ITS tournaments?

I find this hard to believe, especially with how 'order efficient' link teams are, or can be, I suppose...

 Sangarn wrote:
so making units only useful in sectorial list is the mark of a good game designer ?
What about making them usefull in general (wich is the most played in ITS) AND in sectorial ...

I didn't say that "making units only useful in a Sectorial list is the mark of a good game designer", but I do think that there comes a point when we should just ditch the idea of the "general" lists and recognize that Sectorials and how they might play are at this point far more important than the "general" lists and a make or break decision for potential players.

It's nonsense that the first well you run to is "this unit is terrible for the general list!" and then insist that "it doesn't matter how they are for the Sectorial".



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Vanilla Lists are played MORE often than Sectorials in ITS tournaments?

I find this hard to believe, especially with how 'order efficient' link teams are, or can be, I suppose...

Depends on the meta I think.

If you want to go really heavy on specialists, vanilla is probably a better option for PanOceania since there aren't many specialists in the sectorials.

 Sangarn wrote:
Bolt are another shittty profile for PanO général list ...
Kamau do better for less

the hacker with EM grenade with PH 11 is just ... stupid/suicidal( no one is ever gonna use this grenade with a hacker xD)
no good specialist ...

as for the use in sectorial list i dont know, i dont care. I don't like this idea of "only usefull in this sectorial list"


I'm starting to hate CB this days ...

Even though I'd put it in a more diplomatic way I'm inclined to agree. There is little to nothing to work with and we all know everything gets better with a link team. I shall get them, for they're great and new models. Cannot promise they will see play any time soon. Oh, well. Onto more pleasant things.

General list is about flexibility, and in infinity you can have more than one list (of the same general army or sectorial army) in an tournament
so you can have an dual TAG list for killing stuff and specialist heavy list for scénarii both in PanO général stuff

maybe my english is too bad but take this exemple:

in ASA you have the regular unit that is the counterpart of the fusilier in général list.
this unit bring new weapon option and make the base troop of ASA unique.
but they also bring in general pano some cool stuff: the regular with minelayer and sensor that is usefull alone in an defensive playstyle.

this profile is usefull in both sectorial AND general.

the bolt are not :p

So for an ITS tournament, I could have 2 lists - a NeoTerra Sectorial as 1 list, and a 'vanilla' PanO as the other?

A good defensive hacker is worth a LOT in an army with lots of very expensive shiny suits (like NeoTerra). It's worth enough that Bolts are a decent idea even if they aren't as badass for their points as Wildcats or Kaplans. Synergy between units is very important when deciding what to take in Infinity, even more important than units on their own as compared to other forces' versions.

The only major disappointment is no Engineer, for much the same reason (repairing TAGs and gear is super worthwhile, especially when you have a TAG plus an HI or two). But like others have said, that might be addressed later.

As for E/M grenades on a hacker: If you've hacked a TAG or even HI, taking a Normal roll to drop a grenade on it is well worth the risk. D-charges would have been way better, but in their absence E/M is a nice option.

As a guy who frequently tries the close-up hack on suits (with CG/Crane teams or ninja hackers), I have to say that E/M would be a lot more useful than having to just combi a frozen TAG to death.

@ Alpharius

No the two lists must be from the same army list so two vanilla, or two neotera and so on, the Vanilla list is preferred on many occasions because it has not flexibility and abundance of choice.

@ Sangarn

Really? bioimmunity and BTS -6 they are quite attractive in the present and probably future meta, quite an interesting choice to have.

Submachine guns have shock ammo. So those Scots Guard we'll be seeing in abundance have submachine guns... And of course the Odalisque w/submachine gun. A thorakitai too. Shock is incredibly common in my group. And of course mines, crazykoalas...

I guess the mine-launcher/Dropbear will have to wait, just like the doctor+medi-kit rules on Bipandra.

This increase in BTS for a lot of things is curious though.

An 'interesting' month. Next month, Toni.

 Sangarn wrote:
so making units only usefull in sectorial list is the mark of a good game designer ?
What about making them usefull in general (wich is the most played in ITS) AND in sectorial ...

@Bolognesus: for the same price of your bolt ML you can have an nisse HMG ! You know MSV2 Mimetism ... and BS13

Different tools for different purposes. I find link team players get nicely scared and twitchy once they've seen a missile launcher or two once in a while, more so than my sniper or hmg nisses. To each his own, though. (The faces I see when playing sierras offensively...)

I'm disappointed Tarik didn't get a profile update to match his new stature, but after looking at it again... he didn't really need it. He already was a light HI with TAG movement and superjump, masquerading as a LI. I don't think the model needed as much beefing up as it got, but the old model didn't really represent the statline.

The addition of the Spitfire profile, however, is awesome. Mine will definitely be getting a weapon swap.

Must finish painting what Haqq I have before purchase of new stuff...
Must finish painting what Haqq I have before purchase of new stuff...Must finish painting what Haqq I have before purchase of new stuff...Must finish painting what Haqq I have before purchase of new stuff...

 Alpharius wrote:
So for an ITS tournament, I could have 2 lists - a NeoTerra Sectorial as 1 list, and a 'vanilla' PanO as the other?

No, in this exemple you can have two list of the same "army" vanilla or neoterra. My point was: with PanO general list you have more options (and the bolt is not an valid one) ; the bolt are only here to provide second option for a more powerfull fireteam for neoterra sectorial

bioimmunity and BTS -6 will not save you from spitfire/HMG wich is the most common weapon used to kill people in infinity, mimetism can.
as for the missile launcher, if you want one, go for a suiss ML, be a true neoterran

 Savnock wrote:
A good defensive hacker is worth a LOT in an army with lots of very expensive shiny suits (like NeoTerra). It's worth enough that Bolts are a decent idea even if they aren't as badass for their points as Wildcats or Kaplans. Synergy between units is very important when deciding what to take in Infinity, even more important than units on their own as compared to other forces' versions.

The only major disappointment is no Engineer, for much the same reason (repairing TAGs and gear is super worthwhile, especially when you have a TAG plus an HI or two). But like others have said, that might be addressed later.

As for E/M grenades on a hacker: If you've hacked a TAG or even HI, taking a Normal roll to drop a grenade on it is well worth the risk. D-charges would have been way better, but in their absence E/M is a nice option.

Only small problem of being limited with points. You will not find a good compromise between shiny suits, orders, specialists and medium infantry. At the moment I wish Bolts were on the power level of Wildcats and Sekban (Haris and higher willpower doctor) but all we have in response is wait and see, like Bipandra. It is getting irritating and frustrating, especially with the new formats where competition is tough and expectations are high.

Another of the cool 'evolution' pics on Angel's blog



Have to say, the old sculpts have a certain charm to them (and I would be happy to use them!), but the new ones fit the modern Infinity aesthetic much better.