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If they advanced the fluff in the main rulebook then the reading sequence of Rulebook then Human Sphere then Paradiso no longer works. :(

Human Sphere and Campaign Paradiso to not be invalidated by the new rulebook - awesome!

Acheron Falls to come out...later... 2015, right?

I'm a little sad about the lack of fluff advance, but the way it was explained made a lot of sense to me. So I'm cool with that.

I definitely like the silhouette concept. Which means I'm not going to have to worry about rebasing any of my stuff or anything like that. So yay.

 Alpharius wrote:
Human Sphere and Campaign Paradiso to not be invalidated by the new rulebook - awesome!

Acheron Falls to come out...later... 2015, right?

Seems so. But I think this new book, with new units and even new artwork too, will keep us busy 'til then. It seems right to tidy things up now. A good call by CB.

I like that they won't advance the fluff on the new book. Save that room for rules, image examples, fleshing out factions and concepts, and good indexes and glossaries.

The supplements do fine for keeping the narrative in motion. Thats where you actually have room to spare, since new rules in other books don't usually take that much space. You could fit all the new rules that came in Campaign: Paradiso in what, 30-40 pages?

Will the fireteam rules be in the core rulebook? It doesn't sound like it from the BOW video.

"we are going to be releasing an american themed army"

'murica

Fireteams are from Human Sphere, so no.

I was hoping they'd take this chance to consolidate all rules, weapons, profiles and lists into one book to prevent hopping between multiple books. It's a shame they're not - I like using the books rather than printouts, but it's just cumbersome doing it with multiple books.

I understand them not wanting to invalidate other books but that seems like a basic and sensible thing to add to the core rules from an outsider's perspective.

Yeah, new editions should be around to consolidate rules in to one source, update them with the most recent errata, clarify them with the most recent FAQ and give folks a single source for all their needs.

I mean, link teams, the scenario rules, and SpecOps aren't changing then I can see why HS and Paradiso wouldn't be invalid per se. But that shouldn't mean that all of those rules aren't contained in the new core. I desperately hope that is what they mean.

If the core book will still have all the rules (including stuff like link teams and the like) while not overwriting HS or Paradiso (not counting any recent FAQ/Errata work on those books), then that is fine. If it will not include them and still force new players to reference 2-3 rulebooks to get all of their rules then that will be a bit of a cluster .

So I really hope that the comment is just so folks don't write them angry letters about just having bought HS/Paradiso and how dare they release a new edition after 6 years. Hell, part of me is also kind of hoping that all they mean is the fluff is still good so that tweaks are open to all corners of the system.

I mean, not including the scenario system? I can see that. But I think link teams (and its Aleph, Tohaa and Haris-based variants) should definitely be in the core book along with rules for playing sectorials. Even if Aleph and Tohaa need to be stuck in a PDF update instead of in the core, one shouldn't need to crack open rules from Human Sphere or Paradiso to play them if they have the core book.

I mean, if all the books are needed by the time Acheron Falls rolls out... yeah, things will still be a mess, even if the core is more solid.

They probably want to save the fluff advance for an actual expansion book.

I'm happy that the core rulebook v3 will just be a rahash of the existing fluff. Then, newcomers won't be left in the dark.

Have to say I'm really looking forward to 3rd edition...............just don't feel any need to bang on about it until it arrives and I can get playing

Not seeing the new sectorials yet, and not having an advance in fluff is a bit of a bummer, but since a lot of people are complaining about rules, I understand why they want the improve the ruleset before adding more complications. Personally I have played jusy a few games, I'm not confident enough with the rules to make a sensible critic of what works and what's broken.

Also yes, having all the rules in one book is so much useful, so it would be nice. Maybe HS and C aren't invalidated just fluff-wise?

Man I want the Ariadnean sectorials so bad... :S luckily we are going to be having new units (yay Spetsnatz!), despite not having an actual list. That works for me.

Oh, BTW, the Spanish edition of Ravage, that's actually news for everyone. Currently there isn't a Spanish edition of the magazine. The news arrived yesterday or two days ago, the first issue will be availabe on July or August, and that's the issue that will include the basic rules of N3. I ignore wether this will be some kind of QSR or maybe something a bit more complete, and wether they will be published in French and English editions or not.

 warboss wrote:
I understand them not wanting to invalidate other books but that seems like a basic and sensible thing to add to the core rules from an outsider's perspective.

Agreed, hopefully that is the case!

Really looking forward to a new edition, the local group seems a little exasperated with the clarity of the rules as-is, so the timing seems perfect for us.

Seems this isn't so much 3rd Edition as Revised 2nd Edition.

Bit disappointed.

Iain.

What would you have liked to have seen instead?

Gotta say I was a bit underwhelmed too. New rules including clarifications and collecting all the rules in a single book is definitely welcome. I will be pre-ordering as soon as available.

But, I was expecting something "new" that would alter the game, even a little. Indoor rules and scenarios. Vehicle rules (as long as they are within reason--no dropships, but perhaps a light ground vehicle). The introduction of O-12 as a faction. Linkable TAG's. Something. (Just so we're clear, I am not advocating these changes, just what are possibilities I thought might happen.)

Still, Infinity is my favorite miniatures game on the market. CB has done well with the game and the market. So I'll follow along.

I think it's unfair to judge the book that isn't out yet on what he's said so far.

From what I can tell it is going to:

1)Introduce some interesting new rules for us.

2)Clean up some previous Rules/Language snafus.

3)Add some cool new units to the base armies. (Did you SEE those Spetznaz?!)


I don't want to sound like one of those 'They Can Do No Wrong' types, but from what I heard in that video I feel like they 'get it' really well.

The Silhouette thing was a big deal to me, simply because of listening to the passion he had when he talked about people being able to have fun and expressing themselves through their models... how they shouldn't be punished for adding height or dynamic posing.

As fun and exciting as the rules are, they are a miniature company, and they really focus on making good stuff that we wanna buy.

...okay fine. I got some spare room on the bandwagon, anybody else want on?

Chairman Aeon wrote:
Seems this isn't so much 3rd Edition as Revised 2nd Edition.

Bit disappointed.

Iain.

I don't think change for the sake of change is necessarily the best way to go about it.

CB spent 4 years balancing the core mechanics of the game before the 1st edition rulebook was even released. They put a great deal of time and effort into it. It might be that the editions from the supplement books have knocked this a little bit (I know some posters have commented to that effect).

Personally, having seen other companies do things differently (and release things just for the sake of change, sometimes even reversing to previously used rules, to cause another round of miniature purchases because your current lot suddenly don't work) I must say I prefer the CB way of doing things!

Yeah, the game doesn't need a huge shake up. And it is refreshing when a new edition is an incremental change rather than a massive-scale rewrite. There will definitely be some rebalancing going on (please, sweet jebus let the Crane and Pheasant get some kind edit... I want to stop using them as proxies), changes to fundamental bits like LoL and Retreat (which is actually a big deal) and hopefully much better translation and clarification. Acheron Falls can bring the next big shakeups (just like Human Sphere did when it dropped). N3 should be about resetting the baseline and consolidation/clarification. That is the purpose of a new edition (at least in my mind, and as rarely as that is actually the case in the gaming world).

That's really all Infinity needs at the mo'. It needs another pass for balance since there are some very identifiable areas where things are clearly off kilter and not working as intended, the rules need to be clearer and translated better, and everything needs to get consolidated back in to one book.

The last bit is the only thing I'm worried about. Since Human Sphere and Paradiso contain their fair share of massive rules additions (like sectorials and links) as well as a lot of little errata (Infiltration becoming a levelled skill, changes in how dual-wielding ranged weapons works, faction-specific link rules), I feel those should be in the core, but I fear some (like link teams) may not be. That is currently my only reservation about the new edition.

The only reason I want to crack open HS and Paradiso after the new edition drops is to read the background.

I agree that a 're-tightening' of the rules is great. Some slight balance issues, like weapon costs and profiles, could be adjusted. Mostly just to clarify the grey areas and FAQs of the current system.

I would really, really prefer that a new rulebook contain ALL the game rules. I mean a full index of weapon and units special rules/types, full rules including linked teams and any rules for objectives that are common to most or all missions (like which models are normally 'specialists' etc)

CB seem to try and hold unit descriptions and special rules for the supplements to fit into their narrative. I see that as more of an extra, clear and accessible rules are paramount. Keep the supplements for fluff and special mission/campaign stuff.

Again, I'm not necessarily advocating CB makes big changes to the game. I also feel a single book that contains all the rules would be very beneficial, even at the loss of some fluff (in that single book). But, neither of those are the point of the disappoint.

The disappoint comes from the build-up leading to this info. Now, maybe its not fair that many expected something different from CB at this release, but I certainly feel like that was the prevailing sentiment going into this weekend.

I'm happy to hear about the consolidated and clarified rules, but had expected something new instead of a rewritten set of rules.

@I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly Can I just say that your name is probably the third best I've seen? That is just excellent.

I agree on the rules squish. It'd be nice to have everything in one book. But I do understand their want to make the other books non-obsolescent.

And hey, all the important stuff is free online anyway. Who else does that! It is nice to be able to print out a list of all your army's special quirks and stuff to have with you when you're playing.

 Pacific wrote:
Personally, having seen other companies do things differently (and release things just for the sake of change, sometimes even reversing to previously used rules, to cause another round of miniature purchases because your current lot suddenly don't work) I must say I prefer the CB way of doing things!

AMEN!


And on a side note:
I trust CB to give us a good product as usual!
And while I feel the worry about not having everything in one place, I do understand and even support CB's motive of not making the other books obsolete, that some of us bought not too long ago.
If you feel the need to carry say the fire team rules with you (personally doing well with the wiki in those cases) you can easily bring your N3 book plus the printed HS rules, that you get for free anyway.

So pretty much what Cutthroat said while I was typing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
@I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly Can I just say that your name is probably the third best I've seen? That is just excellent.

Now I'm curious for No.1 and 2.

drazz wrote:
Gotta say I was a bit underwhelmed too. New rules including clarifications and collecting all the rules in a single book is definitely welcome. I will be pre-ordering as soon as available.

Part of the problem is that it isn't collecting all the rules in a single book. According to the BOW video (in English), you'll still need Paradiso and Human Sphere books to access the rules in those books (obviously excluding printing out pages from their free download of course which has apparently always been an option.. not sure.. don't play yet).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ronin_eX wrote:

The last bit is the only thing I'm worried about. Since Human Sphere and Paradiso contain their fair share of massive rules additions (like sectorials and links) as well as a lot of little errata (Infiltration becoming a levelled skill, changes in how dual-wielding ranged weapons works, faction-specific link rules), I feel those should be in the core, but I fear some (like link teams) may not be. That is currently my only reservation about the new edition.

The only reason I want to crack open HS and Paradiso after the new edition drops is to read the background.

I don't mind the sectorial stuff necessarily being in another book but things that should be core rules and that it seems most people use every game like link teams SHOULD be in the core book. As a new player, I don't want to be told that my brand spanking new book fresh from the printer doesn't include a rule that everyone says is pretty much mandatory for alot of figs. It might be a good idea for one of the fine folks here who is also on the official forums to just bluntly ask that question about the fire teams and whatever other effectively "core" rules that came out post 2nd edition will be included in the 3rd edition book. Army lists variants are one thing and fine IMO to stay in a supplement (although it would be nice if they didn't but it is acceptable if they do)... but basic rules should only be in one place right after an edition swap.

I agree... I have all the books but the rules are intimidating already (and not very clear) so it would be great to have ALL the core game rules consolidated into one book.

 warboss wrote:

drazz wrote:
Gotta say I was a bit underwhelmed too. New rules including clarifications and collecting all the rules in a single book is definitely welcome. I will be pre-ordering as soon as available.

Part of the problem is that it isn't collecting all the rules in a single book. According to the BOW video (in English), you'll still need Paradiso and Human Sphere books to access the rules in those books (obviously excluding printing out pages from their free download of course which has apparently always been an option.. not sure.. don't play yet).

Right, because the "Third Edition" book is not containing Sectorials or Tohaa...which are the only reason why you would need the Fireteam rules as part of the book.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

The last bit is the only thing I'm worried about. Since Human Sphere and Paradiso contain their fair share of massive rules additions (like sectorials and links) as well as a lot of little errata (Infiltration becoming a levelled skill, changes in how dual-wielding ranged weapons works, faction-specific link rules), I feel those should be in the core, but I fear some (like link teams) may not be. That is currently my only reservation about the new edition.

The only reason I want to crack open HS and Paradiso after the new edition drops is to read the background.

I don't mind the sectorial stuff necessarily being in another book but things that should be core rules and that it seems most people use every game like link teams SHOULD be in the core book. As a new player, I don't want to be told that my brand spanking new book fresh from the printer doesn't include a rule that everyone says is pretty much mandatory for alot of figs. It might be a good idea for one of the fine folks here who is also on the official forums to just bluntly ask that question about the fire teams and whatever other effectively "core" rules that came out post 2nd edition will be included in the 3rd edition book. Army lists variants are one thing and fine IMO to stay in a supplement (although it would be nice if they didn't but it is acceptable if they do)... but basic rules should only be in one place right after an edition swap.

But by that same vein, if you were a new player and had bought Campaign Paradiso or Human Sphere(say if you were wanting to play Tohaa or ALEPH of either flavor) you would have your book invalidated by 3rd edition if they changed something up.

By keeping Link Teams, Sectorials, and SpecOps effectively "in their own books" it lets CB update those books or rules separate to the main rules.

I think the thing is that Fireteams and those later rules aren't 'core' rules. They are considered advanced rules not necessary for gameplay.

Yet at the same time, you can lament the lack of everything being in one place, but it is in one place, the internet, for free. So that is cool.

And not one of you can say you don't have the internet.

Aside though, I also felt that the rules were rather cumbersome, and I had the first edition rulebook that was supercartoony and had WAY worse translations than the 2nd Edition. But just musclin' through it and getting some games in was the best way to learn. You just gotta take into account those first few games are going to last a lot longer than normal as you look up eeeeeeverything.

I don't have the Internet with me everywhere I go...

Just sayin', not everyone carries a smart phone or tablet when they go to game.