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I think the relevant adage here is, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." We can always find things to complain about. By all indications this 3rd ed will be a marked improvement. I'll take it, and figure out how to resolve any difficulties that arise when they arise. Until then, it's happy dance time

Oh I'm not ranting against 3rd edition, I just wish they did it in a way that means I wouldn't need to lug 3 books around and spend time cross referencing profiles to weapons and rules across the 3 books, at least until Acheron Falls hits.

When that hits, we're going to be lugging 4 books around now to cross reference through, instead of 2 if they did 3rd edition the logical way.

That's my sole complaint. Otherwise, bring on 3rd edition.

I HATE THIRD EDITION AND EVERYTHING ABOUT IT! THIS IS TERRIBLE AND I DON'T WANT IT!


With that out of the way...
I'm anxious to see how this plays out. It's also worth mentioning that these kinds of things are not really going to change unless Infinity goes away from their "free reference material" on the web stance.
If that happened, then we might have seen a more "logical" approach in terms of the books...but I'm okay with this way.

Honestly, I think they need to clarify the statement a bit more.

Because on the face of it, considering what they said they are changing, I can't even see how it could be true that those books wont be obsolete. Will the 3rd Edition core only contain the level-less version of Infiltration so that the update in Human Sphere makes sense? Will the 3rd Edition core include crappy and simplistic unit carrying rules so they can be replaced by Paradiso's CASEVAC system? What about the unit profiles, will the redone units from core that received new profiles in Paradiso remain unchanged so that Paradiso successfully modifies them?

I'm not even talking about the inclusion of sectorials, linking rules (and variants) or anything like that. I'm talking about basic errata to the core system that has happened over the last several books (skill changes, two weapon shooting, CASEVAC, equipment and unit updates/errata not in core). I mean, it is almost certain the new core is going to, at some point, contradict or consolidate a good chunk of new rules content from Human Sphere and Paradiso.

To put it another way. After 2nd Edition came out, my 1st Edition book wasn't 100% useless. Sure, things like initiative and deployment had changed and there were a few unit updates, but most of the basic profiles stayed the same. There were some definite changes, and without the addendum I would be able to successfully play 2nd, but I could still use bits of 1st for reference (so long as I didn't need to use the Vet. Kazak or the Naffatun in a game). So you could certainly say my 1st Edition book wasn't obsolete.

And if an addendum for the 2nd Edition Core, Human Sphere and Paradiso is published then they can definitely still say that none of those books are obsolete.

So I would love to know what they really meant by saying it. Was it a throwaway line to still the possible backlash of players who bought in less than a year ago? Was it a sign that the core would not be a complete one-stop-shop for basic rules content (we already knew they wouldn't fit all the army list stuff in there unless they were making a 500 page tome)?

It is just vague enough that I can still hope 3rd Edition wont need content from Human Sphere and Paradiso to be 100% useable with every army in the game. But it is also just vague enough that I'm worried it will be incomplete and I will still need the Human Sphere and Paradiso PDFs in order to make a full set of rules.

I'm kind of hoping it was just a calming platitude or right-on-a-technicality. Ideally, we shouldn't need to crack open more than the core rules PDF and an armylist PDF to get our fix. The new core should obviate the need for a fan driven consolidated rules text, otherwise what is the point of a new edition? New players will want to play sectorials and without that stuff being at least explained in the core book, it will still feel like extra hoops to jump through. Those players that like DTF stuff will feel obligated to grab Human Sphere (and those who looked at Aleph or the Tohaa will need to grab Paradiso to boot). And even if going fully digital, having three PDFs to reference (not including army list files) instead of one is a pain in the arse as well (especially with how badly the current ones run on tablets).

So I kind of hope CB clarifies their statement in that regard. From what they've told us, 3rd Edition will contain changes that will make parts of HS and Paradiso obsolete simply because both of those book contain errata to the core rules (something which we know N3 will include). So saying the old books wont be obsolete seems like it may even just be a weasel statement to avoid righteous anger from new folks. I mean, at the very least most of the army profiles, some of the rules and all of the fluff will still be useful.

A more useful statement would be whether you need anything of the than the new 3rd Edition core (or its free PDF) and your army list (which hopefully consolidates EVERYTHING from all the books in to the updated format) to play. Because it is less important to know that the new edition wont make the books I already own 100% useless (possibly by eating them while I sleep). It is more important to me whether 3rd Edition CAN be a one-stop-shop for all Infinity rules content up to the point of its publishing (again, not including army lists, because they are huge). The statement that HS/Paradiso wont be obsolete doesn't answer the latter and worse, we can draw a lot of conclusions from it which they may or may not have intended.

But I fear we wont get clarification until we start hearing more about the actual new edition. I'm just nervous of this new edition going the way of Heavy Gear's abortive soft reboot (via the field manual). They published a new core set of rules but still required army lists and other info pulled from 2-4 other books. It completely replaced the core rules (well, most of them, still needed the army lists from the core book) but the supplements and the rest of the mess remained. It actually made it harder for new folks to get in. That is the last thing I want for N3.

In the end, I'm going to wait and see, because that statement doesn't mean N3 wont be 100% complete out of the box. But it is the kind of statement that, without any explanation, could mean something pretty boneheaded when trying to reboot with a new edition. I dearly hope that it was just a statement made to placate the masses and not a sign that the new edition is incomplete out of the box.

 -Loki- wrote:
Given the fact that they're clarifying and updating rules, it's just really odd that they'd forgo giving the rules in Human Sphere the same treatment. I can understand if Paradiso was written with 3rd in mind, as they've been working on 3rd for a while. But Human Sphere? The book specifically done to update 2nd edition with link teams and sectorial lists? The book that's only 1 year newer than 2nd edition?

Leaving Human Sphere out of the rules revision is just really strange. We'll have to wait and see obviously, but it just doesn't make sense that they'd give the core rules a revision, but leave the expansion out of it. Add to that they've been talking about playing with some weapon attributes - shotguns to make them more appealing and weapon range bands, as well as adjusting some points costs on units. There's weapons in the Human Sphere book too. And units. There's weapons and units in Paradiso as well.

One thing to bear in mind is that the level and style of rules-writing changed totally between the second edition rulebook and Human Sphere. Although something like a third of the overall rules text comes from Human Sphere and Paradiso, the vast majority (90%?) of the FAQs are for the main rules or for where the HS/Paradiso rules are affected by 'loose' bits of the main rules.

Presumably there'll be an addendum for weapons and profiles.

Well, it looks like the Antipodes are coming within the next few months. Angel Giraldez is offering to do a step by step of the Antipode and controller if he reaches 4900 "Likes" on Facebook.

 IJW wrote:
Presumably there'll be an addendum for weapons and profiles.

Regarding weapons, profiles and army lists, I wouldn't even mind if they were separated in the books like they are now but there was one single combined unit profile list per faction, one single unified weapon list, and one single unified set of army lists as PDFs. That way you simply print off your factions profile list, the weapon list and the army list, err, list. Then the only hunting around would be for special rules.

Right now, for a complete Haqqislam profile list and weapons, I need the following PDFs:

Army and Weapon lists
Human Sphere - Army Lists
Campaign Paradiso - Army Lists
New Profiles (Updated 02/26/2014)

To make it more confusing, some profiles are split between PDFs. Two Odalisque profiles and a Muyib profile are in the Campaign Paradiso PDF and the actual main profile with stats for both is in the Human Sphere PDF.

If they're revising the core rules for readability and accessibility but leaving out Human Sphere and Paradiso, I'd really appreciate (and so would every single Infinity player I've spoken to at my FLGS) unified PDFs. Weapon List PDF, profile list PDF for each faction, Army List PDF.

But if you print out your list with either of the Big Two Free Online Army Builders, most of that can be pretty conveniently placed on a piece of paper.

Not ideal, sure, but certainly helpful!

There's no way I'm going to disagree on profiles split betwen PDFs, it drives me up the wall and was the reason I started on http://store.wargamingtrader.com/infinity/unit/armylist

Which is now on hold until we see what happens with 3rd ed...

Chairman Aeon wrote:
In summary:
1) I'm sad it's not a new edition and we are all starting at the same place,
2) It's not a new edition because you can use 2e books unadulterated,

It's your personal definition, people understood and people seem to disagree, no need posting it multiple times unless you have new arguments to bring forward.

And to add my opinion to the mix using your line of reasoning: If old stuff works with it, it's not a new edition.
When I install a new version of my operating system on my PC I expect some level of incompatibility, but I would be royally pissed if nothing worked with the new version and I had to buy a new version of every application. And expecting microsoft to include a free office, outlook etc. with the next version of windows is not a very realistic expectation.
Campaign rules and sectorials are additional levels of the game. The fact that most people currently seem to prefer to play sectorials doesn't change anything about that fact. Everybody uses some type of office application, but that doesn't automatically make it a core function of the next operating system. Campaign rules are entirely optional, so are sectorials. The game was originally designed without them.
That being said, I'm with you on the "would be neat to have everything in one place" front, but it makes perfect sense that they didn't go that way and they offer an alternative via free rules that you can print out and bind as one book instead of or in addition to buying the book.

3) I hope the official PDFs improve substantially or proper ebook versions are made available.
Point three would be interesting if the videos were interfered into the rule book

That would be great for some of us (me included) but it's obviously a different product from a free rule book. I assume it would be quite some work to turn the rules into a structurally sound and interactive e-book. CB would be out of their mind to give that away for free. Maybe in the future they will get around to produce such a thing, but I guess the market would be relatively small for that.

@Chemical Cutthroat - cheers mate.

Someone (think it was Loki) put it succinctly: updating the rules but not covering anything in Human Sphere or Paradiso would be crazy. Both those books reference and work off the core rules. Both contain profiles, equipment and special rules. Changing the core rules would necessitate rebalancing and create FAQs/rules contradictions, at the very least. If a new edition is being released, it just makes sense to reprint all rules, edited for compatibility. Even if the expansions still 'function' there must be noticeable discrepancies, and it is just so much easier to have all the rules in one source.

On that note, I would also love to see any new rules re-formatted both in the books and online. I play Infinity using a printout that was put together by some fans of the game, combining the core and HS rules in one booklet, with the order slightly rearranged and the fluff taken out. As awesome as infinity's rules are, they could be more clearly presented. Some defend this by advocating using the wiki, but what's stopping CB from taking their experience on board, looking at what sort of clarifications and info are on the wiki now, and putting that information into the written rules?

Ha, for a moment I read your screen name as I-bounty-hunt-the-eldar

I think most people are using the unified fan made rules PDF. I know of some who had it bound, so it is like a small paperback rule book.

A unified unit profile and weapons list, at least as a PDF, and a unified rules PDF. That would go a long way.

Antipodes and controller.... June? The Mutts are rumored for that month too.

Edit for typos. I hate my phone's keyboard.

Finally got time to watch the BoW interview.

Interesting comment about the Bolts and the comment that LoL and Retreat are being reworked. Carlos says that Bolts won't fall back in Retreat like Fusiliers, but so far the only units that do that are Religious.

Bolts aren't Religious.

 -Loki- wrote:
Finally got time to watch the BoW interview.

Interesting comment about the Bolts and the comment that LoL and Retreat are being reworked. Carlos says that Bolts won't fall back in Retreat like Fusiliers, but so far the only units that do that are Religious.

Bolts aren't Religious.

My stab in the dark is that it's related to their "Veteran Troop" classification. Because at the moment that does... nothing? Or they'll get a new rule, either one.

Holy gak the new Anitpodes look stunning.

That they do.

Also I only bought the V2 rulebook like... 2 months ago, yet I am not one bit annoyed about this news, nor am I worried at all about what changes will come.

This is a new and wonderful feeling for me :')

Carlos sounds like my kind of gamer. Talking about the 55mm base and people complaining about it increasing visibility to lines of fire - "Don't worry. Enjoy the awesome miniature. We'll figure out how to make it work in game".

Yeah, I'll do that.

If anyone is just interested in pictures.

Sorry if this is inappropriate.

Squalo's lookin' good. I'll need to get one.

I really like the Terracotta Soldier. Though I notice that apparently Yu Jing's Spitfire has become their HMG. Odd.

I do hope that there's a non-action posed Nikoul at some point. He's got a cool design.

Love the Ghazi Mutti'wah redesign - and Carlos clarification about how some people assume them to be suicide bombers (they're not, and their fluff doesn't suggest it). Can't wait to get a few and disable some HI links.

The Nikaul Ambush Unit looks staggeringly awesome. The 360 shots they showed in the interview were simply stunning. That one will be getting added to my Tohaa.

The awesome thing about the Terracotta Warrior? 35pt Heavy Line Infantry. Now that's a cheerleader! I think the HMG is mislabelled. The Druze Spitfire has a Yu Jing model Spitfire that looks exactly the same, and is a recent model.

Where did you hear 35 points?

 -Loki- wrote:
The awesome thing about the Terracotta Warrior? 35pt Heavy Line Infantry. Now that's a cheerleader! I think the HMG is mislabelled. The Druze Spitfire has a Yu Jing model Spitfire that looks exactly the same, and is a recent model.

Where are you getting a cost from (I don't think anything was announced)?

People have been speculating on that sucker since we saw grainy photos of it, and many are kind of under the impression that the starter box would be nearly unworkable unless they bring 'em down below 25 points. I tend to agree, especially if they are to be the main line troopers for the list. Yu Jing already has plenty of 27-36 point HI line troopers in their stable. With some creative cutting on the Domaru profile (getting rid of most special rules, the CC ability and its funky grenades and CCW; replacing the chain rifle with a combi) you can get an HI profile packing Frenzy and coming in at 17-20 points. Seems more reasonable if that is going to be the Invincible Army's line trooper (especially in the starter box). If they were each 30+ points then a 300 point army would be hard pressed to get 10 of them in there.

'Course, maybe they have an order sergeant equivalent. But if these guys are following alongside Wildcats and Thorakitai as interesting line infantry options, then I think we may be seeing a really barebones HI that comes in at less than 26 points.

As for the HMG, there are loads of little differences compared to the Yu Jing spitfire.



They have a similar look, but that is definitely a straight-up redesign of Yu Jing's HMG. The Yu Jing spitfire has a long under-hanging bit on the front of the gun and no rail/iron sights on the top (at least not as pronounced as on the HMG redesign). The Yu Jing spitfire also has a rubberized/contoured foregrip along the lower front end, like the combi and MULTI.

Definitely from the same design family, definitely not the same gun. About time the ridiculous minigun thing was replaced.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

People have been speculating on that sucker since we saw grainy photos of it, and many are kind of under the impression that the starter box would be nearly unworkable unless they bring 'em down below 25 points. I tend to agree, especially if they are to be the main line troopers for the list. Yu Jing already has plenty of 27-36 point HI line troopers in their stable. With some creative cutting on the Domaru profile (getting rid of most special rules, the CC ability and its funky grenades and CCW; replacing the chain rifle with a combi) you can get an HI profile packing Frenzy and coming in at 17-20 points. Seems more reasonable if that is going to be the Invincible Army's line trooper (especially in the starter box). If they were each 30+ points then a 300 point army would be hard pressed to get 10 of them in there.

'Course, maybe they have an order sergeant equivalent. But if these guys are following alongside Wildcats and Thorakitai as interesting line infantry options, then I think we may be seeing a really barebones HI that comes in at less than 26 points.

A bare-bones magister is 27 points. Take off religious and hyper-dynamics and replace the panzerfaust with a combi-rifle, and I can see that being 25 points.

In the BoW interview I recall Carlos saying they'd be about 35 points.

The O-Yoroi TAG has an HMG, and it also looks like a bigger spitfire. I like it better that way, the older pseudo-gatling design didn't appeal to me.

Really liking the look of those new Ariadna troops, the Spetsnaz especially looks really cool.

And nice to see the concepts of the new Kum bikers, reminds me to get hold of them now they are being released!

I just rewatched the section with the Invincible, and I must have made an automatic assumption of about 35pts as he compared them to 3 light line infantry.

Sorry for the confusion.

Looking at the pictures makes me want to have all of them.

The Muttawi'ah look like something I actually want to field now. Fanatical as they may be, the old sculpts were toodamnugly. Now they look rather awesome, and I'll certainly enjoy ruining TAGs with them.

And the Spetznaz look cool. And the Terra Cotta Warriors look freaking solid... I just want to paint them! HI Army go!

And though I may never use the Fast Pandas, they are adorbs. And I have a thing for adorable robots in the middle of a warzone. Not super sold on the Interventors, but apparently the Nomads are now straight off The Grid.

And despite the flak she'll be getting, I absolutely love the Kum Biker chick. Even has the trashy angel-wings back tattoo. I dig it.

 -Loki- wrote:
Love the Ghazi Mutti'wah redesign - and Carlos clarification about how some people assume them to be suicide bombers (they're not, and their fluff doesn't suggest it). Can't wait to get a few and disable some HI links.

I like the redesign as well but have to disagree about the fluff not suggesting it; my take away was more of a high tech version (EMP vs explosion) and the old/current model suggests it with it's visuals. That unit/model is the reason why I sold my Hassassins. If you wish, we could discuss/debate it in the sub-forum.

The original fluff was based around the original design for the EMP weapons. Since they dropped a roudn template directly over the model. Because of this, nobody really used them, so they got a redesign of the weapon that made it more useful, and didn't put the unit at risk by being basically an EMP bomb.

I always read them as fanatical, but not necessarily suicidal. That's what my Kuang Shi are for.