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Thing is, "Anime" isn't really a descriptor of "Shows from Japan" at this point- it's more of a Genre in and of itself, right up there with "Cyberpunk" or "High Fantasy". It's a collection of tropes and plots and characters common across a portion of animated media- Katana-wielding protagonists, scantily clad females, themes of determination conquering all and the value of friendship, and a dichotomy between incredible fast-paced action sequences and very slow, barely animated dialogue.
If you want to see a cartoon that's 'pure' Anime genre, look at something by Trigger- either Kill la Kill or Gurren Lagann.
But a lot of Japanese animation has little hints of Anime in it- Ghost in the Shell is almost pure Cyberpunk and Political thriller, but there's the scantily clad females all over. Naruto is a sort of 'Middle Fantasy', but it has a lot of Power of Friendship and Determination themes in it. Blood+ is a pretty deep Psychological Thriller, but the main character is an attractive girl who fights with a katana. And Sword Art Online explores themes of what it means to be Human and the nature of Reality, but sneaks in some Fanservice here and there, with a main character who, again, primarily uses swords (even though they're straight swords this time).
What you're saying is "Anime" here is just typical Shonen. "Anime" is literally just the Japanese word for animation. Framing "Anime" as something that is distinct from Japanese animation and even a precludes a lot of it is just plain silly. Given your definition things like the Honey & Clover adaptation (great series by the way!), aren't anime.
While they're certainly the most popular and really quite a bit of fun, anime aimed at 14-year old boys is hardly all that's out there.
Fair points- however, you have to remember the sorts of translation issues America seems to have with Japanese culture- for example, "Mecha" is just the Japanese word for "Mechanical stuff" yet we consistently use it to refer to a very specific genre of giant-robot shows, when we should more properly class them as their respective "Super Robot" and "Real Robot" genres.
And look at animation from other countries. Do we call things like Code Lyoko or the stuff from Moonscoop "Animation" specifically and consistently, or do we lump it under "Cartoons"? Do we call Winx Club "Animazione"? To be perfectly honest, at this point, I'm more comfortable with the portmanteu "Japanimation" as a word for "Cartoons from Japan" rather than lumping everything under Anime.
And though Shonen is the place where a lot of these tropes are most visible, that's not to say that Shonen is where they originated. Blood+ isn't really Shonen, neither is GiTS. And back when most of these ideas and tropes were codified in the Japanese animation industry, Shonen and Seinen and all those weren't really distinct sub-genres yet. Things like the original Astro Boy and Speed Racer have a lot of Anime trappings while being more generic Sci-Fi shows- sure, they have a lot of male-focus in them, but that's more a result of the times than a targetted attempt to appeal to young men.
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Thing is, "Anime" isn't really a descriptor of "Shows from Japan" at this point- it's more of a Genre in and of itself, right up there with "Cyberpunk" or "High Fantasy". It's a collection of tropes and plots and characters common across a portion of animated media- Katana-wielding protagonists, scantily clad females, themes of determination conquering all and the value of friendship, and a dichotomy between incredible fast-paced action sequences and very slow, barely animated dialogue.
If you want to see a cartoon that's 'pure' Anime genre, look at something by Trigger- either Kill la Kill or Gurren Lagann.
But a lot of Japanese animation has little hints of Anime in it- Ghost in the Shell is almost pure Cyberpunk and Political thriller, but there's the scantily clad females all over. Naruto is a sort of 'Middle Fantasy', but it has a lot of Power of Friendship and Determination themes in it. Blood+ is a pretty deep Psychological Thriller, but the main character is an attractive girl who fights with a katana. And Sword Art Online explores themes of what it means to be Human and the nature of Reality, but sneaks in some Fanservice here and there, with a main character who, again, primarily uses swords (even though they're straight swords this time).
What you're saying is "Anime" here is just typical Shonen. "Anime" is literally just the Japanese word for animation. Framing "Anime" as something that is distinct from Japanese animation and even a precludes a lot of it is just plain silly. Given your definition things like the Honey & Clover adaptation (great series by the way!), aren't anime.
While they're certainly the most popular and really quite a bit of fun, anime aimed at 14-year old boys is hardly all that's out there.
Fair points- however, you have to remember the sorts of translation issues America seems to have with Japanese culture- for example, "Mecha" is just the Japanese word for "Mechanical stuff" yet we consistently use it to refer to a very specific genre of giant-robot shows, when we should more properly class them as their respective "Super Robot" and "Real Robot" genres.
And look at animation from other countries. Do we call things like Code Lyoko or the stuff from Moonscoop "Animation" specifically and consistently, or do we lump it under "Cartoons"? Do we call Winx Club "Animazione"? To be perfectly honest, at this point, I'm more comfortable with the portmanteu "Japanimation" as a word for "Cartoons from Japan" rather than lumping everything under Anime.
And though Shonen is the place where a lot of these tropes are most visible, that's not to say that Shonen is where they originated. Blood+ isn't really Shonen, neither is GiTS. And back when most of these ideas and tropes were codified in the Japanese animation industry, Shonen and Seinen and all those weren't really distinct sub-genres yet. Things like the original Astro Boy and Speed Racer have a lot of Anime trappings while being more generic Sci-Fi shows- sure, they have a lot of male-focus in them, but that's more a result of the times than a targetted attempt to appeal to young men.
This seems roughly like saying that we shouldn't consider Banished, Harvest Moon, Sim City or Guitar Hero video games because video games are clearly about running/jumping/fighting/shooting and just general violent conflict. It'd be better to classify these as some kind of Objective-Based Interactive Media.
Besides in the current context "Anime" as "animated shows & movies from japan" is totally functional, I've certainly never seen the further distinctions confused by anyone but those who basically have no interest in the first place. The distinction you're trying to make here just muddles the conversations with veterans, and would only serve to make things less accessible for newbies exploring in this thread.
What in the world is accomplished by making Gurren Lagann as the most-anime-thing-of-all-things at putting everything else on some kind of sliding spectrum away from that point, with some cutoff for being "Anime" somewhere before GitS? How does it improve over the usual way of doing things?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/02 17:40:24
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I don't think Anime should mean "animation from Japan"
It is better applied to the style of animation that originated in Japan. Because after all there are Anime shows which are not made in Japan.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Should/does "Anime" simply mean "Animated media originating in Japan"? Should/does it mean "Animated media in the style popularized in Japan"? Is it a term describing themes and tropes commonly found in Animated media from Japan?
Here's something that muddies the waters between the first two, at the least- IGPX. It's phenominally "Anime". But it's fully American in origin, being an Adult Swim original production. But aside from the original language and the people who thought it up, it's Anime. Similarly with RWBY, actually. Same design philosophy, same storylines, same sort of action sequences...
I'm of the opinion that "Anime" isn't so much a descriptor of where a piece of Animated Media originates, as much as "a category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, characterized by similarities in form, style, or subject matter."- a.k.a., Genre. It's a Genre that has unequivocally originated in Japan, and is still dominated by media coming from there, but the fact that you can have live action Anime (the adaptation of Cromartie High, Sailor Moon, or Casshern) and still have it be unmittigatedly Anime suggests to me that you can't constrain the definition to "Animation created in Japan".
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
If yer an Ork, why dont ya WAAAGH!!
M.A.V.- if you liked ChromeHounds, drop by the site and give it a go. Or check out my M.A.V. Oneshots videos on YouTube!
"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill
Should/does "Anime" simply mean "Animated media originating in Japan"? Should/does it mean "Animated media in the style popularized in Japan"? Is it a term describing themes and tropes commonly found in Animated media from Japan?
Here's something that muddies the waters between the first two, at the least- IGPX. It's phenominally "Anime". But it's fully American in origin, being an Adult Swim original production. But aside from the original language and the people who thought it up, it's Anime. Similarly with RWBY, actually. Same design philosophy, same storylines, same sort of action sequences...
I'm of the opinion that "Anime" isn't so much a descriptor of where a piece of Animated Media originates, as much as "a category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, characterized by similarities in form, style, or subject matter."- a.k.a., Genre. It's a Genre that has unequivocally originated in Japan, and is still dominated by media coming from there, but the fact that you can have live action Anime (the adaptation of Cromartie High, Sailor Moon, or Casshern) and still have it be unmittigatedly Anime suggests to me that you can't constrain the definition to "Animation created in Japan".
That isn't how the word is used though.
You seem to be looking for a word to describe a trait or style common to a lot anime that is also shared with some other media. It's like we didn't have a word for yellow and you're looking for such a word, but since we don't have one you're claiming that Apples & Pears aren't fruit but sunflowers are fruit because Apples & Pears don't share the trait (yellowness) of the most common fruit (the banana), and that things that clearly aren't fruit are simply because they do share that trait (yellowness).
"Anime" just isn't used to describe a genre in the way you're trying to make it here. If I ask just about anyone who is vaguely familiar with anime if, the Space Brothers TV series is an anime they'll say "Yes". You'll find it listed and discussed on websites dedicated to anime. The people who worked on creating it originally and on doing the translation would agree it was. Yet it fails just about every metric you set for something being "Anime". On the sliding scale of "Gurren Lagen" to "Other Stuff" it certainly falls closer to other stuff than Ghost in the Shell and the like. I could list many other similar cases as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime wrote:Anime (Japanese: アニメ?, [anime] ( listen); English Listeni/ˈænɨmeɪ/) are Japanese animated productions usually featuring hand-drawn or computer animation.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2014/12/02 22:17:09
To be fair, yes, I am looking for a term to describe that genre that, let's say, is common to Anime. I think you've hit the nail on the head there, actually. But then, at the same time, I wonder why we have a word specifically for the animation from a single country- at least, when we don't have similar words for animation from other specific countries. Is everything animated in America a "Cartoon"? Would something animated in Taiwan or Korea be an "Anime"? Is Torkaizer, or IGPX, Anime, despite not being from Japan?
it's like how Mergansers look like ducks, walk like ducks, quack like ducks, but aren't ducks.
Also, just a fun little thing about bananas- they're Berries! As are tomatoes and pineapples. Blueberries, strawberries, raspberries and blackberries are [i]not[/i/] berries.
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
If yer an Ork, why dont ya WAAAGH!!
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Anvildude wrote: To be fair, yes, I am looking for a term to describe that genre that, let's say, is common to Anime. I think you've hit the nail on the head there, actually. But then, at the same time, I wonder why we have a word specifically for the animation from a single country- at least, when we don't have similar words for animation from other specific countries. Is everything animated in America a "Cartoon"? Would something animated in Taiwan or Korea be an "Anime"? Is Torkaizer, or IGPX, Anime, despite not being from Japan?
it's like how Mergansers look like ducks, walk like ducks, quack like ducks, but aren't ducks.
A somewhat more permissive usage of the term might include things that are broadly "Anime-styled" in the way you've picked them out. Particularly in casual usage or settings not particularly centered on the specifics of the Japanese industry. However this is very different from the restrictive approach you were taking earlier that defined anime as jiggly-tits, swords and hot-blooded young men. That definition just can't hold up to even the most basic pass at how the term is commonly used.
Bringing stuff under the umbrella when it is very clearly seeking to emulate some parts of some common types of japanese products might be fair to a limited extent. Especially since there really isn't a great term for them. However flexing the definition at the edges like that really can't mean things like Nodame Cantabile or Tatami Galaxy are edged out. If you do push things like that out, again you're defining the word in a way that doesn't even meet most basic usages of the term.
In the end I probably wouldn't put my nose up to someone calling something "American-Anime" or "American-Shonen" or the like, or even just leaving out the "American-" and putting it in the anime genre it is most emulating. That could certainly rattle more folks more purist than me though.
Also, just a fun little thing about bananas- they're Berries! As are tomatoes and pineapples. Blueberries, strawberries, raspberries and blackberries are [i]not[/i/] berries.
Berries are fruit. It's a Squares and Rectangles thing.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2014/12/02 22:21:14
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Dammit DraconicLord!
I haven't used my inhaler in over a year! And you made me get out!
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/03 17:14:11
"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill
I never noticed that, but it's been awhile since I've seen either show.
I still can't get over Blum as Orochimaru, I normally recognize his voice but he went out of his way for that one. Then again he uses something similar for Leeron from Guren Lagann...
Some of his recent work was in the Boxtrolls, he was voicing the trolls alongside my 2nd favorite Voice actor, Dee Bradley Baker.
I'm still amazed at some of the things he's been in. I played Starwars Battlefront II for YEARS without realizing he was in there somewhere. I only learned he was recently via the Wookipedia article on the game.
Speaking of Blum.... I might just go give Cowboy Bebop a go.... hmmmmm...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/04 02:41:17
Oh yeah watch it, it's good. There's a movie too, can watch it pretty much anytime after they pick up Ed and Valentine without it being out of place. Definitely happens during the run of the show, just another longer adventure.
I hear his voice (or really similar) alot, I think he may have been one of the very temporary characters in one of the FEAR games lol.
Started watching Terra Formars again. it actually got a lot better after the whole black bar episode.
I'll be honest though, the main appeal of this series is me being a big nature buff. All the powers in it are based on living organisms on earth which makes the whole thing very appealing.
I like Terraformers overall, but the fights all essentially break down into This side is clearly a dominant force of nature evolved to be the best, but wait! The other side is actually one step better suddenly! The underdog in any given fight is almost always the winner via sudden reversal. But yes, it is much better without the stupidly obstructive censer bars.
Just watched Trigun, High School DxD (It Sucked, it was Ecchi), The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzamyi (Fantastic), Black Lagoon (All of it, second season eh, first great, but the OVA's wow) and Just started watching Canaan (Holy Mother of God, just watch the first episode and you will see why).
Damn this is what happens at the least bit of my school year.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
If you like Canaan and Black Lagoon, Jormungand should probably be on your list as well.
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I might give jormungand a shot. I heard the main character (the white haired woman) is really terrible as a person. I was aware of the show and interested but never really watched it.
I also recommend monster even though i've seen only about half of it.
Parasyte so far with 10 episodes shown is really good. Man this show is crazy but also really awesome. The precision and knowledge of parasites that have been able to learn enough is crazy. In case you haven't seen the show the parasites are kind of like 'The Thing' though not quite as powerful. It's a great show and deals with some very f**k'ed up stuff.
Yeah all the characters interesting and the plot is kind of awesome.
And it is mostly a girl cast. Which is kind of interesting.
This is one of the few animes where there is actually very few fan service. IT actually makes sense O.O
Otherwise the characters are kind of awesome.
Apparently the back-story is from the japan only visual novel 428: Fūsa Sareta Shibuya de. As far as I can tell, the game is Maria's trauma causer.
I had a feeling about that. I haven't heard of it. Till now. But I don't think we need to go into details about it.
Though the Lesbian relationship between Maria and Canaan is just a fan tease by the looks of it :/ (damn you anime! it would of been awesome)
It's something I have not been able to figure out even after finishing the show (multiple times).
Spoiler:
Maria and Canaan are obviously very close, and neither of them seem to have any relationships other than that. Even if they don't love each-other like parteners, they love echother like sisters. Probebly one of the best relationships I've ever seen in a anime.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
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sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
