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Well it depends on what one means by Deadlier.

For example, I would rather run into a Krieg guardsman in a dark alley than a Catachan one.

But I would rather run into fifteen Catachan than I would two or more Kreig.

^ What. I'm not sure how you are comparing, but 15 Catachans charging would be worse than or equal to 2 or more Kriegsmen charging? Or shooting?

If we're talking a versus contest, hands down Catachans.

Their style of war is an exact counter to regimental standardized warfare, with hit and run guerilla tactics, infiltration and disguise, and precision striking enemy key weak points, while not engaging the main bulk in a standoff.

That is their element, they WANT to fight a huge traditional army, because they'll pick and tear at its soft spots until the end of time, all the while evading open firefights.

Much like stalking predators of their homeworld.

 purplefood wrote:
I think the Catachan could probably mess anyone up with whatever comes to hand...
In fact didn't Straken strangle a chaos lord with a vine?

Straken is a bionic monstrocity with a chainfist for an arm.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
I think the Catachan could probably mess anyone up with whatever comes to hand...
In fact didn't Straken strangle a chaos lord with a vine?

Straken is a bionic monstrocity with a chainfist for an arm.

He's right though, given any set of any kinds of circumstances, I'd vote for Catachans for being more able to adapt.

And with 40k, it's adapt or die.

Actually, in 40k, human survival all about rigidly adhering to counter-intuitive dogma. So DKoK win there. Of course, are you still human if you manage to survive -- that's what GrimDark is all about.

BronzeJon wrote:
He's right though, given any set of any kinds of circumstances, I'd vote for Catachans for being more able to adapt.

And with 40k, it's adapt or die.

Free-thinking leads to Chaos.

Burn in the Emperor's fire, heretic.

99% of the Imperium has not yet adapted to the Warp - the other one percent are no longer favored by the Emperor.

Burn in the Emperor's fire, heretic.

I say Krieg. Imo, Id prefer guys who WEAR ARMOR. Catas are runnin round in vests,
Kriegsmen
1: ARMOR-More survivability
2.ARTILLERY-Long range, takes out cover. Nothing to hide behind.
3:Organised fire- Blankets of las-fire comin at you, where do you go?
4. Imo, BETTER at cq

Why would it matter where? Jungle? No more jungle. Wastes? Hill of dead. Only place catas might beat Krieg, is in a city. Maybe.

Death Korps.
It's probarbly me just being a fanboy, but they're just epic.
Just like everybody's said before though, theyr'e both specialist regiments and excell at different things. The IoM need's both.

 Decio wrote:
^ What. I'm not sure how you are comparing, but 15 Catachans charging would be worse than or equal to 2 or more Kriegsmen charging? Or shooting?

I was using hyperbole to illustrate my point, but what I was trying to say is that 1v1 the Catachan is probably better, but at any unit tactics whatsoever, from fireteam to army-wide, the DKoK have much better inter-arms and interpersonal communication, as they all have identical fatalistic and realistic looks at war.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

PresidentOfAsia wrote:

Catachans are Space USMC(The actual marines); Death Korp of Krieg is Space WW1 German/French soldiers from WW1. And of course the USMC> Wehrmacht.

You mad?

Krieg are the most badass IG Regiment in the galaxy, second only to Cadians themselves.
They are emotionless, loyal to the Emperor to the point where Black Templar loyalty seems small, they can withstand to lose millions and still fight on and they nuked their own homeworld to prove their loyalty.

+ they are based on WW1 western front solders but mostly going toward Wehrmacht witch makes them more than awesome.

How about this,

they can win WITHOUT losing millions of men

Also, because the Catachans aren't emotionless, they tend to be much more interesting and use actual tactics instead of DURR CHARGE DURR I DUNNO NO FEAR DURR CHARGE

Catachans lean towards US marines, which makes them even more awesome; in other words, they get gak done

For the history ignorant German military fanboys who keep saying that the Catachans don't wear armor and will lose automatically,

guess how the Army and Marines dressed in the Vietnam War?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamero wrote:
I say Krieg. Imo, Id prefer guys who WEAR ARMOR. Catas are runnin round in vests,
Kriegsmen
1: ARMOR-More survivability
2.ARTILLERY-Long range, takes out cover. Nothing to hide behind.
3:Organised fire- Blankets of las-fire comin at you, where do you go?
4. Imo, BETTER at cq

Why would it matter where? Jungle? No more jungle. Wastes? Hill of dead. Only place catas might beat Krieg, is in a city. Maybe.

the Jungles of Catachan WILL grow back with twice the effort should it be demolished, its not as easy as it seems; thats why its a DEATH world, jungle planets and death worlds are different classifications

and thats assuming the flora and the fauna of said planet don't mess with the kriegsmen

Yeah but then drop the Catachan in Krieg, and if they're not dressed like Kriegsmen, they're dead, end of.

Krieg are not retards that only know to charge, they use plenty of tactics, even those that might cost a lot of troops.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah but then drop the Catachan in Krieg, and if they're not dressed like Kriegsmen, they're dead, end of.

Krieg are not retards that only know to charge, they use plenty of tactics, even those that might cost a lot of troops.

Tbh, i haven't seen a single instance where the Deathkorps fights like a halfway competent, modern army. WW1 style trench warfare was the result of a very specific combination of circumstances which should only rarely happen in the technologicaly advanced 40. millenium. Specialising solely in this kind of warfare appears to be a waste of time and ressources imo.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah but then drop the Catachan in Krieg, and if they're not dressed like Kriegsmen, they're dead, end of.

Krieg are not retards that only know to charge, they use plenty of tactics, even those that might cost a lot of troops.

Tbh, i haven't seen a single instance where the Deathkorps fights like a halfway competent, modern army. WW1 style trench warfare was the result of a very specific combination of circumstances which should only rarely happen in the technologicaly advanced 40. millenium. Specialising solely in this kind of warfare appears to be a waste of time and ressources imo.

The problem is, in a place as big as the galaxy with a civilization as backwards as the Imperium, those "very specific combination of circumstances" are happening somewhere at all times, and that is where the DKoK will be sent.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah but then drop the Catachan in Krieg, and if they're not dressed like Kriegsmen, they're dead, end of.

Krieg are not retards that only know to charge, they use plenty of tactics, even those that might cost a lot of troops.

Tbh, i haven't seen a single instance where the Deathkorps fights like a halfway competent, modern army. WW1 style trench warfare was the result of a very specific combination of circumstances which should only rarely happen in the technologicaly advanced 40. millenium. Specialising solely in this kind of warfare appears to be a waste of time and ressources imo.

Dead Men Walking, they use siege to destroy the city, which is pretty standard procedure, tbh, they send Grenadiers in as recons, to identify who they're fighting, said Grenadiers are infiltrated in Valkyries and later on with underground means, they use city combat (using cover vs warriors, going all Krieg on the Flayed Ones).

Hate the models, but I think growing up on a planet that constantly tries to kill you is harder than someone trying to break you. Also, the biggest hazard of krieg is avoided with a mask and suit. All the armor in the galaxy can't protect you from catachan. It's all about wits, agility, and fortitude.

The merest, tiniest gap between clothing and skin is fatal on Krieg. We're talking isotopes as deadly, if not more so, than Sarin, especially because of their long half-life and the density of them. That urge to scratch that itch on your wrist - you can't. Or on your nose. Or anywhere on the body. You just have to live with it because the instinctual urge to scratch can get you killed. If you get hot in the equipment you can't open it up to improve the airflow, if your clothing is torn then you will most likely die. If you're food/drink pipes in your mask make contact with the air they'll be contaminated and you will die. If the end of your air tube is contaminated you will die.

Catachan is a planet that will try and kill you, Krieg is a planet that will kill you. Both are horrific to live upon.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
The merest, tiniest gap between clothing and skin is fatal on Krieg. We're talking isotopes as deadly, if not more so, than Sarin, especially because of their long half-life and the density of them. That urge to scratch that itch on your wrist - you can't. Or on your nose. Or anywhere on the body. You just have to live with it because the instinctual urge to scratch can get you killed. If you get hot in the equipment you can't open it up to improve the airflow, if your clothing is torn then you will most likely die. If you're food/drink pipes in your mask make contact with the air they'll be contaminated and you will die. If the end of your air tube is contaminated you will die.

Catachan is a planet that will try and kill you, Krieg is a planet that will kill you. Both are horrific to live upon.

Yet dont scratch that itch and your fine... The worlds inconvenient.
Catachans arnt stupid either and certainly wouldnt deploy into a radiated wasteland without appropriate protection.
But their is protection.... The most wet , pathetic Guardsmen in existence can survive providing he knows how to use his equipment.

On Catachan, no gizmo, or piece of equipment will help. Only skill, fortitude, reflexes and luck.

In each of their respective home worlds, they would thrash their opponent- in an open, generic area in a straight-up fight, Krieg would win.
I'd say they're roughly equal at CQB (Catachans have strength, Krieg have numbers and no emotions).
So it comes down to how they perform at range, which Krieg are definitely superior at with their ridiculous amount of artillery.
What would happen in an open battle is Catachans would try and hide in woodland and rely on skirmishers, while Krieg would set up a perimeter, dig in and basically just flatten any nearby foliage (or cover for that matter) with artillery fire until the Catachans push an attack, where they will take huge losses from artillery fire and a storm of las-fire, then the remainder who get up close will get mobbed.
Catachan's best hope would be to use guerrilla tactics, but they will inevitably lose due to the resolve and single-minded determination of the death korps.

The superior fighter.

I have a bias here, as does everyone.
I will let it shine through before I try to be objective.

The Catachans are jungle fighters whose idea of "good camouflage" is putting bright red targets on everyone's foreheads and leaving their entire upper bodies bare and like most of 40k they are as white as bleached cornbread, so that's gonna reflect light pretty well. The models are consistently painted wearing white wifebeaters as camo, and their official paints (and usually fan paints) do not tend to use things such as camo beyond "well my pants are green", glare-reducing smears under the eyes, ghillie suits or other advanced camouflage, or even basic profile-muddling patterns. They are furthermore against the concept of orders or following battle plans, vehemently so.
The very fact that they are effective ANYWHERE in 40k's fantastically cruel setting, and not much more ineffective than the Vietnam-era US soldiers they're based on ended up being already, is something we just have to take GW's word for.

The Krieg meanwhile use outdated and cruel tactics (well, depends on who you ask - Dead Men Walking sees them use quite competent ones, and that's the most deep fluff book we have on them) but seem to at least be aware of their role. And of course, trench warfare in a setting where small arms fire has a maximum effective range so short that cavalry charges are quite able to go from "out of range" to "skewering you" in the timespan it takes for you to fire a single shot is actually a lot more reasonable and logical than it ever was in real life.

Now that THAT is out of the way...


In a Krieg vs Catachan fight, the Krieg will win, because while both are by human standards very good at close quarters combat (by current edition rules, the krieg are in fact as good as the Space Marines and leave the Catachans in the dust), the Krieg's special rule "Turn any and all terrain into mud-caked trench-filled hellholes" ensures that they are never out of their element, whereas the Catachans are as soon as they stop being surrounded by trees.

However, that singular thing is not sufficient to tell who is more effective.

Against Chaos, the Krieg are resolute and unyielding in the extreme, second only to Cadians in suitability to fight a foe that works on killing morale and spreading fear. The fact that chaos invading a world will alter the topology and terrain, if in sufficient size, further skews this.

Against Orks, the Catachans have a clear advantage. A frustrating foe that surgically attacks leadership and vulnerable targets is perfect for fighting an army like the orks. Where the Krieg can use heavily fortified positions to lure the orks into all-out assaults across no man's land and then blow them to tiny little pieces with several thousand tons of ordnance, and bayonet anything wriggling, the Catachans can use much fewer resources to dismantle a WAAAGH.

This continues, going down each possible enemy.
Ultimately however, the fact that the Krieg are ADAPTABLE, MUCH MORE SO THAN THE CATACHANS, is what brings me over to their side the most.

Catachans are almost exclusively light scouts, suited to one particular environment.
Their most famous weapon is the flamer, which they field in large numbers. It is well adapted to dealing with groups of weak creatures, but excessively poor at trying to fight armour, monstrous creatures, or heavily armoured enemies.

The Krieg do not only have siege regiments, but armoured companies, armoured fist regiments, scores upon scores of artillery regiments, ordinary infantry regiments, and dedicated heavy-armor veteran grenadiers.
They are famed for using large quantities of meltaguns, which are weapons able to bring down almost any target. They can use these in conjunction with their fabled heavy artillery to deal with enemy armour and tank-equivalent monsters as well as their most heavily armoured elite soldiers.

My vote as is probably clear goes to the Krieg, as the more overall adaptable and deadly regiment of the two. If the catachans win in one environment and the Krieg win in seven others, it is clear who is the better overall choice.
Even if the Krieg tactics are outdated, they are not the ones trying to take on the horrors of 40k armed only with wifebeaters, knives, and a few flamers.

The Death Korps of Krieg, the Superior Fighter.

mynamelegend wrote:
Against Chaos, the Krieg are resolute and unyielding in the extreme, second only to Cadians in suitability to fight a foe that works on killing morale and spreading fear.

I'd say Krieg are better at dealing with an enemy which sows fear and destroys morale- Cadians are used to it, but Death Korps physically cannot be affected by it.

other than that, pretty much every point there is well made

 shrike wrote:
in an open, generic area in a straight-up fight, Krieg would win.
I'd say they're roughly equal at CQB (Catachans have strength, Krieg have numbers and no emotions).
So it comes down to how they perform at range, which Krieg are definitely superior at with their ridiculous amount of artillery.
What would happen in an open battle is Catachans would try and hide in woodland and rely on skirmishers, while Krieg would set up a perimeter, dig in and basically just flatten any nearby foliage (or cover for that matter) with artillery fire until the Catachans push an attack, where they will take huge losses from artillery fire and a storm of las-fire, then the remainder who get up close will get mobbed.
Catachan's best hope would be to use guerrilla tactics, but they will inevitably lose due to the resolve and single-minded determination of the death korps.

Not so sure about that. That's assuming the DKoK had (a lot of) time to set up their trench lines, haul in their artillery, and set up the necessary logistical chains necessary to run their style of warfare.... Granted I don't know too much of the DKoK fluff, but I'm pretty sure they can't "flash-mob" their massive forces into a warzone. They would constantly get harassed and raided while trying to set themselves up. Heck, maybe a few "barking toads" will show up at their landing sites...!

 Eetion wrote:

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
The merest, tiniest gap between clothing and skin is fatal on Krieg. We're talking isotopes as deadly, if not more so, than Sarin, especially because of their long half-life and the density of them. That urge to scratch that itch on your wrist - you can't. Or on your nose. Or anywhere on the body. You just have to live with it because the instinctual urge to scratch can get you killed. If you get hot in the equipment you can't open it up to improve the airflow, if your clothing is torn then you will most likely die. If you're food/drink pipes in your mask make contact with the air they'll be contaminated and you will die. If the end of your air tube is contaminated you will die.

Catachan is a planet that will try and kill you, Krieg is a planet that will kill you. Both are horrific to live upon.

Yet dont scratch that itch and your fine... The worlds inconvenient.

Having to be aware 24/7 that anything you may do, even instinctively, can lead you to die in a couple of seconds from the isotopes soaked into the planet is just an inconvenience? After two weeks of being buttoned up in uniform & equipment it must be astoundingly hard to not want to wipe away sweat from the face, to stop it from stinging the eyes, being unable to wipe away the gound from your eyesockets (that sharp prickly sensation when you wake up with all that gunk at the corners of your eyes - imagine that day after day for hours until the fluids of your eyes manage to wash it away), to not scratch at any itches, to suppress the urge to look at your own body - we can look at our own skin each day and every day but not being able to do so after several weeks? Must be hard to not want to double check you're ok and all in one piece. Spots and boils must be horrible to have, wanting to examine them because you can feel them but can't see them yet you can't look at them at all. Even when they're asleep Korpsmen have to suppress instinctive urges to scratch or take off things such as their gloves or loosen their boots or clothing.

It's not about knowing how to use the equipment, it's about living in that equipment without falling to instinctual needs to do even the most innocuous thing. Try not to scratch any itches for an entire day - you'll scratch one instinctively at some point.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:
Not so sure about that. That's assuming the DKoK had (a lot of) time to set up their trench lines, haul in their artillery, and set up the necessary logistical chains necessary to run their style of warfare.... Granted I don't know too much of the DKoK fluff, but I'm pretty sure they can't "flash-mob" their massive forces into a warzone. They would constantly get harassed and raided while trying to set themselves up. Heck, maybe a few "barking toads" will show up at their landing sites...!

That's only the case if you take the limited view that the Death Korp can only fight from trenches, which is false. As they're based upon the Western Front of The Great War, which had a lot of fighting where trenches weren't even involved, it stands to reason that the Death Korp can 'flash mob' a warzone, in fact that would be damned scary to face, a never-ending supply of grim, faceless soldiers who don't fallback without orders who are advancing on you, moving from cover to cover, firing away at you, creeping ever closer until they close-in with the bayonet, the most fearsome bayonet fighters of the Imperium charging down the enemy.

I think people get hung up too far on the trench thing. The speciality of the Death Korp of Krieg, where they're the absolute best of the best, untouchable in their capabilities by any other regiment from any other world, is when fighting turns to trench/attritional based warfare or offensive siegeworks. Outside of those they're still more than capable soldiers who can move, shoot, use cover, work in small formations to advance upon the enemy until they can use their flamers, melta's & long bayonets on them. They're not one-dimensional soldiers who can only fight near trenches, they're fearless killing machines who just happen to not care whether they die or not whilst they try to kill their beloved God-Emperor's enemies - the longer they stay alive the better as they can kill more of those enemies but if they die then they've paid their part of Krieg's blood-debt.