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I just hope they get faction warfare put soon, it'd make having the clan mechs slot more worthwhile and give me something to do that's interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, just checked out the forum post, some sweet things are a-comin

Well they will need 16 complete mechs. Clans do not have variants, they are omni-mechs. Having only 4 clan mech chassis available at the start would be boring for clan players.

My question is will they allow second characters for accounts for clan players. It would make zero sense afterall for a clan player to have an IS thunderbolt or jenner in their mech bay.

Of the 16 it'd be nice for 5 totem mechs, wouldn't mind a kodiak or a eyrie

Col. Dash wrote:
Well they will need 16 complete mechs. Clans do not have variants, they are omni-mechs. Having only 4 clan mech chassis available at the start would be boring for clan players.

My question is will they allow second characters for accounts for clan players. It would make zero sense afterall for a clan player to have an IS thunderbolt or jenner in their mech bay.

I would expect to need to purchase variant configurations. Otherwise, MWO's mastery system would preclude clan pilots rising above basic. Rolling out 4 Omnis and 3 configurations each would start with the same number the IS got.

Besides, you've got to leave room for progression and interests in this kind of model. If the next thing to look forward to after release is a Phoenix Hawk IIC, or some other solahma bandit hunting machines, no one is going to be excited. I would be stunned if all 16 Omnis dropped at once.

I think they should have 8, no variants. And clan mechs shouldn't have hardpoints, but their engine and all other hardware shouldnt be able to be taken out, and taking out a weapon destroys it, also generally just have lots of tonnage, armour and stuff, also some stuff should be faction exclusive.

I think they should keep Clan Tech out of player hands it is just too hard to balance imo.

They should allow us to at the very least pilfer Comstar's armoury.

Not allowing players to use clan tech would be a basics Fu to clan player and is the typical mantra of IS people, it'd be easy to balance.

 The Dark Apostle wrote:
Not allowing players to use clan tech would be a basics Fu to clan player and is the typical mantra of IS people, it'd be easy to balance.

I'd love to see clan tech but saying it's easy to balance is silly, it isn't. No need to be a dick about it.

Weren't they talking about having only 10 Clanners to 3 IS Lances? That lack of two Mechs would probably be worth a few ER Small Lasers and Streak SRM 6s.

Of course they won't be sticking to lore and having them be like that. But have the things I've described and having the price be a lot more than current mechs say 3x then what the current weight class average is. Having penalties for changing the loadout and adding weapons, have the machine parts be unchangeable. But having the armour, structure and heat sinks be equivalent of the upgraded ones I.e. Ferro, endo, double heat sinks. That's more then enough to balance them

Price differences are immaterial and of no consequence for the meta. If you can invest more c-bills to gain an advantage, then it will become a standard. Example: look what happened to DHS.
Limiting such advantages to a single faction is just bad design as it's just a matter of time until the majority on the advantaged side will have it, granting them easier wins. So, it would have to be curbed by other balancing factors.

There's a number of routes one could take here, from salvaging Clan-tech to smaller Clan companies to introducing ghost heat for changed loadouts on OmniMechs, just to name a few off the top of my head. But for the time being, we can only speculate. It's waaay to early to have a real debate.

Salvage is definitely something I'd like to see. I'd love it if, when I blew up a Side Torso without destroying the arm attached, the arm's equipment would be credited to me as salvage. Or if Legging a Mech gave access to the engine.

Frankly limiting clan tech would just be stupid. I know it makes in universe sense but in universe sense should be secondary to game play balance. Limiting player accounts to factions would earn money but it would piss off the majority of the player base who don't give a gak about the lore. The only really sensible way to handle the introduction is to just put it out there and force the lore to take a back seat to the game.

Clan tech could simply be part of the natural progression for players (like DHS). There's no need to complicate it at all.

 Lynata wrote:
Price differences are immaterial and of no consequence for the meta. If you can invest more c-bills to gain an advantage, then it will become a standard. Example: look what happened to DHS.
Limiting such advantages to a single faction is just bad design as it's just a matter of time until the majority on the advantaged side will have it, granting them easier wins. So, it would have to be curbed by other balancing factors.

There's a number of routes one could take here, from salvaging Clan-tech to smaller Clan companies to introducing ghost heat for changed loadouts on OmniMechs, just to name a few off the top of my head. But for the time being, we can only speculate. It's waaay to early to have a real debate.

Do you not see, the price addition is equal to paying for the upgraded armour and such, and the lack of hardpoints is made up by the fact that thei would be penalties for tempering with it

I'd always favour an approach that tries to walk the road between gameplay balance and background faithfulness - and surely it's not impossible in this case, too. Clantech being salvaged and redeployed by Inner Sphere forces is canon, it just wasn't done often because it was costly and involved a lot of research and reverse-engineering. However, the player characters are already exceptional, starting with the fact that we are even able to have our engines switched, or upgrade to Endo-Steel and DHS. That's far from what would be considered normal in an era where 'Mechs would walk into battle with existing damage simply because your techs lack the know-how and resources to repair its arcane machinery. It's not quite as bad as in 40k (especially after the discovery of the Helm memory core), but it's close enough.

I'm not sure I'd want to see it as part of a natural progression (or if so, then it should take quite a while, similar to modules), but it really depends on how they implement the Clans. If they do a 12 vs 10 and manage to create a balance this way, then I don't have a problem with it taking months to get a single Clan weapon. In fact, in that case it must take long, lest the IS runs the risk of having an unhealthy advantage, even if you make Clan engines etc remain exclusive.

One option could also be to limit Clan weapons to a specific number. Maybe even have you need to unlock slots with GXP modules - one module lets you slot one Clan weapon?

I still like the idea of having to salvage Clan tech by playing matches and shooting off components, though. Or maybe it could also be done via loyalty points ... all roads lead to Terra.

Do you not see, the price addition is equal to paying for the upgraded armour and such, and the lack of hardpoints is made up by the fact that thei would be penalties for tempering with it

There are no "upgraded weapons", though, so what does your price difference mean there?
And what "penalties" are you referring to exactly? And how would that make the 'Mechs balanced in their standard configuration?

 Lynata wrote:

Do you not see, the price addition is equal to paying for the upgraded armour and such, and the lack of hardpoints is made up by the fact that thei would be penalties for tempering with it

There are no "upgraded weapons", though, so what does your price difference mean there?
And what "penalties" are you referring to exactly? And how would that make the 'Mechs balanced in their standard configuration?

ehh, I didn't say weapon up[grades so ill regard that as a misread or typo, I've already mentioned penalties in my earlier post, having weapons destroyed when un-equipping them and unable to move hardware like engines or armour

 The Dark Apostle wrote:
Not allowing players to use clan tech would be a basics Fu to clan player and is the typical mantra of IS people, it'd be easy to balance.

I'd rather have clanners with hurt feelings then a game that is unplayable as IS, you just don't realise just how much better clan tech is do you?

It's only so much better when you stick to a hardbound lore based implementation and the obvious answer to the problem is to ignore lore and put game play first.

Or everyone can just sit behind their computer monitors crying about whose more screwed.

If you put gameplay first though, then Clan stuff, will have to have the same stats as its IS equivalent, making differentitating it pointless.

If the devs really want to give us clan tech, then I vote we wait until after Tukayyid which is 4? years at the earliest? That way they will at least have plenty of time to try and balance it, that is why I suggested we get to pilfer Comstar's armoury instead.

The Dark Apostle wrote:ehh, I didn't say weapon up[grades so ill regard that as a misread or typo, I've already mentioned penalties in my earlier post, having weapons destroyed when un-equipping them and unable to move hardware like engines or armour

But Clan-tech includes weapons, so you'll have to address this factor, too. And Clan weapons being destroyed when un-equipping them? That's just an inconsequential money-sink, and one that doesn't even function as well as R&R did in regards to Artemis ammunition. When was the last time you reconfigured your entire 'Mech? I for one always stick to one loadout that I've prepped in smurfy's, so if I had a Clan-Mech and tweak it to optimum settings, I'd not feel constrained by your one-time c-bill fee at all. It'd become as default as DHS (which, coincidentally, also get destroyed if you pull it out of your 'Mech).

When was the last time you reconfigured your entire 'Mech?

That's you though, I have a clan mate (you have played with him) JimmyBeaver that is the exact opposite of this. He (drives me nutz) changes his mech's after every battle, he would be screwed if they charged him to strip his gear every round.

Of course they won't stick to lore on clan mechs, what saying is a good way to implement them appearing powerful but keeping balance. Just think of it as if they come with the upgrades pre-added but a much bigger price and everything else. If you guys want I can give a much more detailed description.

Also I read about another way of balancing it is having your earnings getting lowered if you break the clan laws, like legging someone or shooting the back.

Deathshead420 wrote:That's you though, I have a clan mate (you have played with him) JimmyBeaver that is the exact opposite of this. He (drives me nutz) changes his mech's after every battle, he would be screwed if they charged him to strip his gear every round.

Isn't that even worse, then? If the system "screws" with people depending on how they play the game?

The Dark Apostle wrote:If you guys want I can give a much more detailed description.

It would certainly help with the discussion, if you really want to have one. Given that weapons don't have an upgrade available for IS players, I'm certainly interested what you would to there.
At least I'm assuming that this is what people would care more about than pre-installed Ferro-Fibrous or whatever.

I also wouldn't say that they "surely" won't stick to the canon just yet. Not as long as they've actually showed us what they have in mind. As I said, there's a lot of ways to tackle this. Some are just more complicated or more difficult to balance than others.

The Dark Apostle wrote:Also I read about another way of balancing it is having your earnings getting lowered if you break the clan laws, like legging someone or shooting the back.

That's not balancing if the faction still walks off the battlefield with an easier win, even if this is just an option they may avail of. It would breed a caste (hah!) of privileged gamers who don't give a frak about their c-bill earnings, and thus end up with a superior 'Mech but without those limitations you intend to make it fair. They might even simply consider the c-bill loss a "necessary winning fee", like it was with Artemis ammunition back when R&R was still active. The remainder will whine and bitch on the forums about how it's impossible for them to fight Lights now.

And that's before you consider the jokers who might shoot an enemy's leg orange, just to troll one of their teammates with the chance to accidentally leg the opponent. Or that some IS pilots would start taking the armour off their back location to reinforce the front, and other such shenanigans.

I really don't want to sound like a Dissenting Davion, but with the gaming industry, you always have to account for the worst possible scenario when it comes to your players. People will seek ways to take advantage of any kind of system, so you need to account for any of your ideas being misused just because it's possible. And players can be very creative when it comes to that.

For clans they need to use honor points not C-Bills. Honor points in general would be earned by killing bigger more threatening mechs and higher ranking players but no points for losing a match. A nice restrictive system like this would both hold clans in check and be fluffy.

Plus 10vs12 would need to be implemented for balance. It would be silly to reduce clan tech to IS tech levels and I hope they dont. Price in honor points would obviously be higher to pay for the equipment since it is better than IS tech. That should be all the balancing needed. Out numbered, more yet less customization for mechs due to omni-tech and extreme cost, and make it a paid for faction along with loss of IS mechs in mechbay.

When they are some day introduce the Clans, I would indeed expect a "currency" similar to the already announced Loyalty Points for the House regiments.
I think mercs are collecting Prestige instead?

Not sure how you imagine it would hold them "in check", though - it'd just be another resource to grind. Probably for the same purpose, meaning unlocking higher ranks and cool paint jobs, or transfers to a more prestiguous regigalaxy.

As for c-bills, they're just an abstraction. No MechWarrior in service to a House would pay for their own 'Mech - and those few that do (offspring of nobility) won't make sufficient cash in such a short timespan but rather inherit their 'Mech as a family heirloom. That we still have to pay for this stuff is just a necessary evil of online gaming. Just like the SWAT teams in Counterstrike have to buy their own body armour, and like Republic Troopers in TOR have to visit the auction house to buy a better rifle.

I for one hope for a 10v12 match balancing as well, but I think that Clan players should start out with their signature advantage in equipment. IS players could use Loyalty Points to purchase salvaged Clan stuff, though? That way, the Inner Sphere could "keep up" with the Clan players who are simultaneously investing their spoils into better-tweaked configurations and pilot skills. This formula depends, of course, on a Starter Clan 'Mech being equal to 1.2 Inner Sphere 'Mechs with basic skills unlocked. I have no idea if it'd pan out, and I think it would need actual live testing to get any reliable projection.

None of that is balanced.

They're not going to split the player base and they're not going to convert the Clans into the elite pay 2 win faction. If anything that'll destroy the game more than the imbalance in mechs and glitches ever will. And as much as PGI likes to ignore the problems with their game I doubt they're oblivious to them.

People are over thinking this problem because its not a problem. The lore should be pushed aside. To rigidly adhere to it does nothing but produce artificial obstacles that do not need to exist.

They will have to. Plus lore is one of the most important things about this universe, without it this is just another boring mecha game so dropping or not building the game according to the lore is a non-starter and the game might as well close up shop. They have already hurt it by essentially making IS mechs Omni-mechs, that's far enough.

Clan tech has no business in IS hands until after at least 3053 or 54. It took years for IS techs to figure out how to jury rig clan weapons onto IS chassis and much longer to come up with their own cheap copies. Its the equivalent of giving a 1960s TV repair guy a flat screen LCD TV and telling them to fix it.

They will have to split the base or allow accounts to have a second character slot with its own mech bay specifically for clan mechs. Having clan tech isn't paying to win and there would be nothing wrong with a business model that made characters pay for new mechs similar to the Pheonix package. Plus with honor based economy its not like clan players are going to be upgrading their mechs quickly and they will be forced to seek out the best and biggest mechs on the enemy team just to advance themselves.Playing as a clanner should be fairly rough and limited, grinding should take awhile and not just be taking part in a battle.

Col. Dash wrote:
They will have to. Plus lore is one of the most important things about this universe, without it this is just another boring mecha game so dropping or not building the game according to the lore is a non-starter and the game might as well close up shop. They have already hurt it by essentially making IS mechs Omni-mechs, that's far enough.

They've broken for lore plenty of times (machine guns vs mechs lul) and pin point perfect accuracy and what do you mean just another boring mech game? The market isn't exactly flowing in mech games. The Mechwarrior Line of games has always brushed the lore to the backseat to maintain game integrity. I don't understand why people are so die hard in demanding it must be lore perfect or it will be a failure. The majority of the player base probably has near no knowledge of Battletech outside of the Mechwarrior franchise.

Making things needlessly difficult serves no one. it doesn't serve PGI who seems to perpetually be hurting for money and it doesn't serve the players who want a mech battle simulator not the authentic Battletech experience.

Col. Dash wrote:Clan tech has no business in IS hands until after at least 3053 or 54.

Because nobody managed to capture a piece for research until the DCMS did it in '52, seeing as the Clans steamrolled everyone before encountering sufficient resistance to actually let stuff remain on the battlefield to be salvaged. It would be a bit lame and one-sided if this winning streak would be replicated by the game, though.

Also, it should take years for a single MechWarrior to advance through the ranks, get better 'Mechs and join more prestigious units, too, but the game is compromising here as well.

This is what I meant about walking the middle road earlier - the lore is important, but there are opportunities where you can and perhaps should tweak things if it makes for a more fair and interesting gameplay experience. For example, Clan tech being superior to IS tech is an element that I believe must remain in place, yet on the other hand I don't necessarily agree about having to stick to the timetable with every little detail when 1) you think of the aforementioned issues with players "blitzing" through ranks, 2) the battles will yield different results in terms of battle outcome and conquered planets, and 3) 'Mech customisation is already much more liberal and open than it is in the canon.

Gods know, I wish they'd stick a bit more to the canon, at least then the Guardian ECM wouldn't be such a ridiculous gamechanger.

There is, of course, also the option of simply having the timeline skip to a later year, just like it would be possible to halt the timeline before 3060 and the Great Refusal, or jump to the Jihad etc - it all depends on how deeply PGI aims to explore the setting, and for how long they are planning into the future. Though personally I'm a bit on the fence about it and cannot really decide between whether I'd prefer a "live" timeline or one that jumps from one interesting moment to another.

Col. Dash wrote:Having clan tech isn't paying to win and there would be nothing wrong with a business model that made characters pay for new mechs similar to the Pheonix package.

The Phoenix 'Mechs are rolling out as purchasable for c-bills. Along other nice things such as the premium time or the customisation goodies, the package is nothing but an "early access" kind of deal. It might be P2W if this were not the case, depending on the individual 'Mech's performance (fortunately they all seem very balanced to the rest, though, otherwise people would complain about the delay).

Col. Dash wrote:Plus with honor based economy its not like clan players are going to be upgrading their mechs quickly and they will be forced to seek out the best and biggest mechs on the enemy team just to advance themselves.Playing as a clanner should be fairly rough and limited, grinding should take awhile and not just be taking part in a battle.

That's kind of like saying Trial 'Mechs are balanced because it takes so much time for players to grind themselves to a proper one.
A solution for permanent balancing must be found, not something that focuses on initial equality. Veteran teams from IS and the Clans must (obviously) have equal chances at winning a match.

For example, Clan tech being superior to IS tech is an element that I believe must remain in place

The simple solution to clan weapons is just rolling out lostech which for all intents and purposes would be identical in game. Balance problem solved on that front and lorewise is workable enough. It was already being worked on long before the Clans invaded.

The other, even simpler solution is to ignore it and leave it out of the game. LRM's and SRM's are still wonky, non ER weapons are pointless, SHS are pointless, MWO is not a game that has dedicated massive amounts of time to weapon balance. Do we really want to throw more weapons into the mix?