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There has been a debate for quite some time to do with the missing primarchs and what happened to them. Some people believe that these primarchs were traitors and were killed at the beginning of the heresy. If this is true then what happened to legions 2 and 11. The Horus heresy books suggest that they were traitors or destroyed by the chaos gods. I am here to provide a new theory that hopefully will provide a different light on this mystery. I am open to criticism on this so here it is:
The missing legions are the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch chapters. My evidence for the grey knights is in Codex:space marines (5th edition) which states in the grey knight background that records suggest that they may have been active during the great crusade. Acting in secret to destroy rogue psykers. But my main evidence is that the purifiers are hiding a great sarcophagus in their fortress monastery. It is said to be to big to contain a space marine so it remains possible that the being inside is the lost primarch. My final evidence is the grey knight power armour is modified mk 3 iron armour.
My theory for the deathwatch is that they have been said to have been assassinating xenos leaders since the Dawn of the imperium of man and that they're first leader the great hunter was said to be as big as a dreadnought.
So what do you think. Please reply with your thoughts
Thank you for your time

UPDATE:
The blood ravens are also noted as being one of the possible missing legions but this is in fact not true. Their primarch is rogal dorn. They are imperial fist successors as they possess three of the imperial fists main relics. Their battle barge, dorns mantle artificer armour and rogals blade power sword and on the world of Kronus their is a shrine dedicated to his honour with blood raven iconography on it.

Legions 2 and 11 are hinted at having been merged with the Ultras, but it isn't certain.

The Grey Knughts were formed after the start of the Heresy by Malcador. That's what Garro is up to in the audiobooks.

As for the Deathwatch, I don't know much about them, so it's an interesting theory!

The Grey Knight codex refers to the Grey Knights as part of the second founding. Chapter 666.

The Deathwatch have always been a random collection of marines from different chapters.

The missing two primarchs are also refered to by characters in the HH novels as "The Lost" and "The Purged".

I would think "The Purged" would be the legion that was "supposedly" killed off by the Space Wolves.

As for "The Lost", perhaps they were actually lost. Either in a tragic warp accident, gene-seed failure or turned to the runious powers.

The grey knights are officially a second founding chapter but even during the great crusade the emporor forbid anyone from going to the Titan monastery. Also in rogue trader rulebook in the section where it tells us of two missing primarchs and legions it quotes dorm saying before the battle for terra that it is suspicious that two battle barges were leaving Titan base. Further enforcing my theory

Castiel wrote:
The Grey Knights were formed after the start of the Heresy by Malcador. That's what Garro is up to in the audiobooks.

Again I'll say this.

I guess we'll never know. The real reason for them is so that players can use them for the basis of their own chapters. Of course that is now frowned upon. Due to the Mary-Sue Marines that often result.

Thesanguinesword wrote:
The missing legions are the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch chapters. My evidence for the grey knights is in Codex:space marines (5th edition) which states in the grey knight background that records suggest that they may have been active during the great crusade. Acting in secret to destroy rogue psykers. But my main evidence is that the purifiers are hiding a great sarcophagus in their fortress monastery. It is said to be to big to contain a space marine so it remains possible that the being inside is the lost primarch. My final evidence is the grey knight power armour is modified mk 3 iron armour.
My theory for the deathwatch is that they have been said to have been assassinating xenos leaders since the Dawn of the imperium of man and that they're first leader the great hunter was said to be as big as a dreadnought.
So what do you think. Please reply with your thoughts
Thank you for your time

I don't think there are 10,000 grey knights and 10,000 death watch running around. The origins of the grey knights has already been pretty must established, and the death watch arent their own chapter, the recruits for death watch are taken from existing chapters.

DeffDred wrote:
As for "The Lost", perhaps they were actually lost. Either in a tragic warp accident, gene-seed failure or turned to the runious powers.

I just hope so...

nah, the Blood Ravens are quite clearly loyalist 1k sons if we add everything up.

Brother Coa wrote:

Spoiler:

Maybe they are in fact Blood Ravens?

I just hope so...

Nope.

Definite nope.

They are a paradox of sorts; left out so players can make their own yet players who do so are generally the target of much rage and therefore they are left out by the players as well.

According to most HH books, ALL recorded history of the existence of the 2nd and 11th Legions are gone... So what we DO know about them is that something so horrible and wrong happened that the Emperor felt it necessary to expunge them from existence. There is even a section of one of the HH books where a Primarch is in a hall filled with statues of himself and his brothers, and thinks to himself "what might have been" had the 2 empty plinths been filled and they allowed to continue in existence. This to me points to the Primarchs knowing their "missing" brothers, some may have even met the guys, but they either did something, or something happened.

Because we have records of the GK, and we know who the Death Watch are, we KNOW for a fact that these are not the 2 missing legions.

It could be that the writers ran out of "unique" primarch and legion traits to give out after 18 of them, couldnt be fethed to come up with 2 more, and told players to "make them up" which as n0t_u has pointed out, draws derision and scorn from most players.

Remulus wrote:

Thesanguinesword wrote:
The missing legions are the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch chapters. My evidence for the grey knights is in Codex:space marines (5th edition) which states in the grey knight background that records suggest that they may have been active during the great crusade. Acting in secret to destroy rogue psykers. But my main evidence is that the purifiers are hiding a great sarcophagus in their fortress monastery. It is said to be to big to contain a space marine so it remains possible that the being inside is the lost primarch. My final evidence is the grey knight power armour is modified mk 3 iron armour.
My theory for the deathwatch is that they have been said to have been assassinating xenos leaders since the Dawn of the imperium of man and that they're first leader the great hunter was said to be as big as a dreadnought.
So what do you think. Please reply with your thoughts
Thank you for your time

Remulus wrote:I don't think there are 10,000 grey knights and 10,000 death watch running around. The origins of the grey knights has already been pretty must established, and the death watch arent their own chapter, the recruits for death watch are taken from existing chapters.

The grey knights could not have more than 1000 at anyone time as they are all psykers and as you know psykers are rare and as such if they were around during the great crusade it is unlikely they had even 1000 members at that time. As for the deathwatch I believe many of their number were given to the ultramarines hence the ultramarines being prime donators to the deathwatch

According to Deliverance Lost both of the lost primarchs were "sanctioned" before the Emperor found Corax.

I could see one of the lost primarchs be related to the Custodes more so than the Grey Knights, but I think that even that is a stretch.

The Legions would be a separate question, did whatever happen to the Primarchs happen before their gene-seed was used to create their legions? Were the Legions created and absorped, created and santioned, or never created to begin with?

Thesanguinesword wrote:There has been a debate for quite some time to do with the missing primarchs and what happened to them. Some people believe that these primarchs were traitors and were killed at the beginning of the heresy. If this is true then what happened to legions 2 and 11. The Horus heresy books suggest that they were traitors or destroyed by the chaos gods. I am here to provide a new theory that hopefully will provide a different light on this mystery. I am open to criticism on this so here it is:
The missing legions are the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch chapters. My evidence for the grey knights is in Codex:space marines (5th edition) which states in the grey knight background that records suggest that they may have been active during the great crusade. Acting in secret to destroy rogue psykers. But my main evidence is that the purifiers are hiding a great sarcophagus in their fortress monastery. It is said to be to big to contain a space marine so it remains possible that the being inside is the lost primarch. My final evidence is the grey knight power armour is modified mk 3 iron armour.
My theory for the deathwatch is that they have been said to have been assassinating xenos leaders since the Dawn of the imperium of man and that they're first leader the great hunter was said to be as big as a dreadnought.
So what do you think. Please reply with your thoughts
Thank you for your time

UPDATE:
The blood ravens are also noted as being one of the possible missing legions but this is in fact not true. Their primarch is rogal dorn. They are imperial fist successors as they possess three of the imperial fists main relics. Their battle barge, dorns mantle artificer armour and rogals blade power sword and on the world of Kronus their is a shrine dedicated to his honour with blood raven iconography on it.

Blood Ravens are clearly 1000 Sons loyalist/remnents. At the end of ATS it's almost clearly stated, and in the story 'Rebirth' in Age of Darkness. I think we can put this one to bed folks.

As for II & XI. They where around pre-heresy. They where lost prior to corax being found. Magnus and Lorgar both knew then or of them as they talk in ATS. Rogal Dorn mused at the empity statue plinth in "The Lightning King' short story/audio book. The first we ever heard about them was when 2nd edition came out and they had the 'definitive list' of the primarchs. Before all a primarch was someone who founded a SM chapter. See the old Leman Russ story in the RT rule book where he was a IA commander put down some rebellion, and was instermental in founding Legion Astartes unit 4 Space Wolves. Also with osomotic lungs/gills =o]

Before the Heresy it was the job of the Sisters of Silence to hunt down rogue psykers. They also manned the Black Ships at the time which carried psykers to Terra for evaluation and testing with the un-usuable ones going to the 'hollow mountain' AKA to power the astronomicon. They where all blanks/phiriah's specifically for that reasion. The Grey Knights where formed post heresy by the founding members of the Inquisition Janus and others ( now retconned to be Malcador probley to tie it into the HH books) and named chapter 666 which was odd as there where only about 200 Space Marine Chapters founded during the second founding.

The DW and GK have always been and always will be Inquisitional assets. It's honestly a cool little idea. Maybe during the Crusade the Emperor laid the founding blocks for the GK? Maybe he was working on new geneseed or armour with the mechanicus. Maybe but who know's honestly? If it will help tie into the HH novels and sell more books and models I can see stuff like this happening ( especially with Ward and his ' My Marines haz 2 be the bestest marinez' mentality he writes his codex's with) but honestly it doesn't add to the existing back drop of 40k or make it more interesting. I personally hate the new ' malcador took them into the warp and out came the GK's" Well if Titan had planetary Gellar Fields why didn't Terra have them? The most important planet in the GALAXY! ? I think it cheepens the GK's alot as it brings them from 'People who give up there humanity and emotions to fight chaos' into 'Grey Knights are the roxorz...and the cheez

But honestly 40k is a huge place with alot of wiggle room in the galaxy.And what ever happens you will not be missed =o]

at least one was created an absorbed, supposedly by the ultramarines.

JohnnoM wrote:at least one was created an absorbed, supposedly by the ultramarines.

That does seem to be hinted as one of the reasions the Ultrablingers are so much larger then other Legions. It could also be down to the fact that they control a small stellar empire within the Imperium and have a large armount of worlds to draw Marine recrutes from.

Until we have some hard facts on Legion sizes ( the books are all over the place, they where around 10,000-20,000, then they jumped up to 50,000-100,000 with the UM being 250,000) this is all speculation and fanfiction territory. =o]

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

JohnnoM wrote:at least one was created an absorbed, supposedly by the ultramarines.

That does seem to be hinted as one of the reasions the Ultrablingers are so much larger then other Legions. It could also be down to the fact that they control a small stellar empire within the Imperium and have a large armount of worlds to draw Marine recrutes from.

Until we have some hard facts on Legion sizes ( the books are all over the place, they where around 10,000-20,000, then they jumped up to 50,000-100,000 with the UM being 250,000) this is all speculation and fanfiction territory. =o]

Most of what is talked about the Smurfs in the HH books (that I have read thus far) suggests that the Word Bearers are competing the the UMs for the largest legions size-wise. The "reason" that is insinuated at in most of the HH books is that Rouboute Guilliman himself is soo SUPER awesome at organizing things, kinda like a Martha Stewart with a Bolter and power fist.

d-usa wrote:I could see one of the lost primarchs be related to the Custodes more so than the Grey Knights, but I think that even that is a stretch.

No, the Custodes were created before the Primarchs. They also use a completely different creation process to a Marine. Custodes are artificial creatures grown in test tubes based partially off the Emperor's DNA. Space Marines look down on Custodes for this, they see them as something less then human whereas a Space Marine was a human at one time and still retains a visage of humanity.

Pundabaya wrote:I guess we'll never know. The real reason for them is so that players can use them for the basis of their own chapters. Of course that is now frowned upon. Due to the Mary-Sue Marines that often result.

but they don't need that excuse as they say that many chapters have successors and nobody knows exactaly how many there are

The HH novels sugest one was destroyed by the SWs and the other absorbed into the ultramarines. But the real reason they were left open is as we all know to allow the fans to create their own unique legion, one loyalist one traitor.

Sigh... Rick Priestley's original intention, according to an old interview, was that the two missing chapters has sided with the Traitors when the Horus Heresy began, only to return to the Imperial side when the Warmaster's true nature was revealed. To have been struck from Imperial records, and thus not remembered as traitors, was as reward, not a punishment.

The idea that they were intended to allow players to invent their own Astartes legions is entirely incorrect, since when the Heresy's background was first published (and the missing legions were first mentioned) the limit of twenty legions had not been established (nor had the concept of the Primarchs), and only about fifteen legions had even been named.

English Assassin wrote:Sigh... Rick Priestley's original intention, according to an old interview, was that the two missing chapters has sided with the Traitors when the Horus Heresy began, only to return to the Imperial side when the Warmaster's true nature was revealed. To have been struck from Imperial records, and thus not remembered as traitors, was as reward, not a punishment.

I've never heard that before. Source?

Sigh... Rick Priestley's original intention, according to an old interview, was that the two missing chapters has sided with the Traitors when the Horus Heresy began, only to return to the Imperial side when the Warmaster's true nature was revealed. To have been struck from Imperial records, and thus not remembered as traitors, was as reward, not a punishment.

The idea that they were intended to allow players to invent their own Astartes legions is entirely incorrect, since when the Heresy's background was first published (and the missing legions were first mentioned) the limit of twenty legions had not been established (nor had the concept of the Primarchs), and only about fifteen legions had even been named.

Sigh... Everything you brought up is outdated.

The idea that they were intended to allow players to invent their own Astartes legions is up for debate. Rick Priestly, according to a more recent interview, said that was an acceptable conclusion. And last time I checked, most of us are not, infact, Rick Priestly so we shouldn't put words in his mouth or consider him the center of 40k lore. Sure he came up with the idea but hundreds of people have put in their (official) two cents since the 80's.

English Assassin wrote:Sigh... Rick Priestley's original intention, according to an old interview, was that the two missing chapters has sided with the Traitors when the Horus Heresy began, only to return to the Imperial side when the Warmaster's true nature was revealed. To have been struck from Imperial records, and thus not remembered as traitors, was as reward, not a punishment.

The idea that they were intended to allow players to invent their own Astartes legions is entirely incorrect, since when the Heresy's background was first published (and the missing legions were first mentioned) the limit of twenty legions had not been established (nor had the concept of the Primarchs), and only about fifteen legions had even been named.

Ah forgive my ignorance, that story of the legions seems to be allot more to my liking than many others.

DeffDred wrote:

Sigh... Rick Priestley's original intention, according to an old interview, was that the two missing chapters has sided with the Traitors when the Horus Heresy began, only to return to the Imperial side when the Warmaster's true nature was revealed. To have been struck from Imperial records, and thus not remembered as traitors, was as reward, not a punishment.

The idea that they were intended to allow players to invent their own Astartes legions is entirely incorrect, since when the Heresy's background was first published (and the missing legions were first mentioned) the limit of twenty legions had not been established (nor had the concept of the Primarchs), and only about fifteen legions had even been named.

Sigh... Everything you brought up is outdated.

The idea that they were intended to allow players to invent their own Astartes legions is up for debate. Rick Priestly, according to a more recent interview, said that was an acceptable conclusion. And last time I checked, most of us are not, infact, Rick Priestly so we shouldn't put words in his mouth or consider him the center of 40k lore. Sure he came up with the idea but hundreds of people have put in their (official) two cents since the 80's.

Good work utterly missing the point there. Was I asserting that the original Horus Heresy (Epic Space Marine rulebook, 1989) background is presently canonical? No, I was pointing out that the oft-repeated claim that the missing legions were originally intended to provide a 'blank canvas' for players' creations was not founded in fact. Since you didn't manage to grasp that the first time, I'll reiterate. 1) Priestley, the original author of that rulebook, has specifically claimed that his intentions were otherwise. 2) There was no need for the background to 'provide room' for player-created legions, since their numbers had not been fixed at twenty (or indeed eighteen), and only fifteen or so had even been named.

We will find all about them one day, when GW broke down and decided to share us the begging and the end of Warhammer 40k universe.

Or they will maybe tell us on 21'st December when the world is ending and they all know how much we would like to know that...

English Assassin wrote: Was I asserting that the original Horus Heresy (Epic Space Marine rulebook, 1989) background is presently canonical?

That setting was completely invented by Jervis Johnson, by the way. Priestly invented the 40k setting in general. Jervis invented the Horus Heresy.

Sort of like some people say about Christianity; Jesus may have had some ideas, but Paul made it popular.

I had quite forgotten (or indeed never noticed) that. Strictly, his credit (as for Adeptus Titanicus) was for game design, which implies the background may well in fact have been the work of miscellaneous studio hacks. Priestley was at the time the studio's lead writer, so I continue to trust his opinion on the intention of the background. In any case, the simple fact remains that the contents of the aforementioned rulebook invalidate the claim that the missing legions were intended to allow players leeway to create their own.