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Haha, the very existence of the Squat makes that story's validity in current canon suspect.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
You have access to science direct? It's behind a pay wall although I can PM it to you if you don't. And now you're getting into the pedantic weeds about specie definition. Viability of offspring is one of the most common metrics in a contentious field. Rejecting that out of hand is preference, not science.

Yeah, just PM me the info of author, vol and issue, I can get it through the U's database. I don't want to take this ten year old topic further into the genetic bedroom

Sure dude, although I don't know why you started it in the first place. Here's some light reading on the topic which I found interesting.


C. Brace, The fate of the “Classic” Neanderthals: a consideration of hominid catastrophism. Current Anthropology, 5 (1964), pp. 3–43

G. Bräuer, The evolution of modern humans: recent evidence from Southwest Asia, P. Mellars, C. Stringer (Eds.), The Human Revolution: Behavioral and Biological Perspectives on the Origins of Modern Humans, University of Edinburgh Press (1989), pp. 123–154

D. Caramelli, C. Lalueza-Fox, C. Vernesi, M. Lari, A. Casoli, F. Mallegni, B. Chiarelli, I. Dupanloup, J. Bertranpetit, G. Barbujani, G. Bertorelli, Evidence for a genetic discontinuity between Neandertals and 24,000-year-old anatomically modern Europeans. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (USA), 100 (2003), pp. 6593–6597

Eswaran, A diffusion wave out of Africa: the mechanism of the modern human revolution? Current Anthropology, 43 (2002), pp. 749–774

K. Harvati, S. Frost, K. McNulty, Neanderthal taxonomy reconsidered: implications of 3D primate models of intra- and interspecific differences. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (USA), 101 (2004), pp. 1147–1152

Karavanić, Upper Paleolithic occupation levels and late occurring Neandertals at Vindija Cave (Croatia) in the context of Central Europe and the Balkans. Journal of Anthropological Research, 51 (1995), pp. 9–35

Karavanić, F. Smith, The Middle/Upper Paleolithic interface and the relationship of Neanderthals and early modern humans in the Hrvatsko Zagorje, Croatia. Journal of Human Evolution, 34 (1998), pp. 223–248

 
Obviously it's biased towards data from Gibraltar and the Levant.

 disdamn wrote:
Like fear, it's an unnecessary distraction so removing that impulse is part of creating a space marine

Except that we have examples of Space Marines feeling fear. For instance, Loken, in Horus Rising, said that Space Marines do, in fact, feel fear; they just have the discipline to push it aside.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spetulhu wrote:

 disdamn wrote:
the Jaq Draco Inquisitor series. the Imperial Fist Marine that's with him talks about it.

It's years since I read that one (The Inquisition War?) but IIRC the IF Captain there doesn't actually say what he is or isn't capable of - physically. The Squat (yes, it's that old) speaks coarsely about all kinds of stuff and at one point starts asking the marine if he ever "goes to visit" women, to which the answer is that "he doesn't let such base urges guide him".

Which would suggest that Space Marines still feel the desire to bone, they just push it aside. Sort of like they deny the feeling of fear.

Not sure there'd be any point. Plenty of healthy un-modified humans to go around.

 MattBaby wrote:
I can't imagine the Administratum would dare give Space Marines that kind of power. They could use that to create a new species of super-humans. Further, the gene-seed wouldn't be implanted. So either, hearty humans or nothing. Also, the modifications that make a space marine only work on young males and would kill a woman.

New species of supermen to rule them all sounds like a good idea. The übermensch

 dusara217 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
IIRC the IF Captain there doesn't actually say what he is or isn't capable of - physically. The Squat (yes, it's that old) speaks coarsely about all kinds of stuff and at one point starts asking the marine if he ever "goes to visit" women, to which the answer is that "he doesn't let such base urges guide him".

Which would suggest that Space Marines still feel the desire to bone, they just push it aside. Sort of like they deny the feeling of fear.

Maybe, or perhaps he's actually so deeply psycho-indoctrinated against it that he can't consider doing it. Yes, he didn't say he's impotent or that he doesn't fancy women, he just brushed it off as unworthy base urges.

Some marines, like Space Wolves, do seem to still find women attractive in some fashion. But in their case it's often tales of women they knew before becoming Astartes - the SW do seem to take a bit older aspirants than Codex Chapters.

 Archaeo wrote:
Besides, in the far future there is only war.  No time for any of that 'fun' time.

I suggest you go read Horus Heresy: Legion by Dan Abnett.

 Sgt.Roadkill wrote:

Just a quick question....and one that may have been asked before....

The question is can they biologicaly....not morally

Depending on answers....it may affect my inquis char and my Chapter Bkgnd.

I suppose its possible, but they are mostly engineered into being super human. Its also not really mentioned if they have cervex smashers or if they are like a ken doll in armor. The real question is, do they even have a sex drive? if they do i picture in my mind a fetish that revolves around bolter barrels and chainsword oil.

I love that we desire a believable post human, but when arguments arise to make that post human more real, we fight that notion so hard.

I think it's the fear of man's base instinct. We fear that humans can in fact develop a mental state much like a Space Marines. Hyper indoctrinated, never questioning, always loyal. Totally and utterly dangerous. Unbending resolve. Steel. This isn't fictional fancy people there are people in the world today working right now to make themselves or others fit this exact bill. And guess what its already possible and the science advances more every war. Take a good look at an SAS soldier or a Spetznaz and tell me that they don't remind you of a Space Marine. You could torture that Spetznaz man all day and he won't talk. If he had acid spit you can bet your ass he'd use it on you. So maybe that's why we fear and resist believable Space Marines, we almost have them in today's world!

So how do we combat this fear? Well removing human qualities is a great place to start. Making fun of the concept. Denial. The fact is folks, Space Marines are post human humans, nothing more and certainly nothing less. Maybe Man Child is a better term? Sure each Chapter practices extreme mental conditioning to overcome the human flaws of untrammeled emotion but this doesn't mean those flaws vanish! No in some cases, Marines just like people each one is different, even certain flaws are exacerbated by the gene seed. I've said it a million times. You can't have inhuman Space Marines. It doesn't work on a fundamental level, a level that has been firmly established by the canon. Space Marines are big babies. Horus Heresy proves it. Nothing has changed except how they lie to the IoM about their organization, so why the humanity-vaccuum?

Its simply because we fear these same monumental failings within ourselves and in society as a whole and we are powerless to change it.

So again, how do you make the Space Marine less scary? Emasculate him. Dehumanize him. Turn him into a machine that can be ordered and directed ad infinitum without ever worrying about what he thinks or feels. Cut off his penis and sterilize his brain. Now he is just a thing, not a man, not human. Marine. Sterile, cold. Steel.

The only trouble is folks, this isn't just fictional literature we're delving into. Its your own gorram soul. What you do to that Marine, you do to yourself. Can't face the terror of knowing you are capable of atrocity? The worst thing to do about that is deny it.

Oh hi darkcloak.

I think that's pretty ableist, and heterosexist, and Eurocentric.

I mean, not to say that it isn't true, because it is. Any assertion that marines are sterile or asexual because they have to be or because it's abominable or unthinkable or impractical that they be capable is morally and intellectually suspect. Industrialized warmaking and killing are human traits and othering space marines by saying they can't reproduce is a tiny form of evil to go along with tiny plastic toys.

But reproduction is not actually an essential human trait the way war is. Every person has the potential for violence and merely by living around a society, humans are complicit in the violence perpetrated by society. Assuming that reproduction is a human is also intellectually impeachable.

After all, it is impossible to say that someone who is not capable of reproduction by reason of age or by disfigurement or other pathology is not human. Furthermore, a person who is reproductively capable but does not include reproduction in his schema of personhood does not require reproduction to qualify as human. To say so would be essentialist and that is somewhat shy of the truth.

It is also true that in society many human men simply will never reproduce. Even in a western society that assumes nuclear families, sizable minorities of men are less likely to ever reproduce than women. In many other societies, the suppression of reproduction is more explicit, a dominant class of males will reproduce while a larger class of males will be significantly inhibited from reproduction. In fact, many features of monotheism underlying western society themselves to limit reproduction to dominant males.

So while it is disingenuous to say that space marines cannot or do not ever reproduce, it is also disingenuous to say that they must be able to reproduce, because that assertion perpetuates the underlying discourse of othering. Just like it is wrong to say that space marines are monstrous and we are not like they are, it is wrong to say that humans reproduce and therefore are unlike space marines.

It is most useful to say that space marines never reproduce, because frequently atrocities are committed by groups who are themselves oppressed. Many gendered crimes are committed by women against women or men against men, and racialized crimes within racial groups. So also would a space marine, who is monstrous, be captive of a system that prevents his reproducing, by whatever means that it does.

Was listening to this 40k Radio show with Rick Priestley. Was listening to him discuss the original idea behind the Legions

http://www.40kradio.com/archives/1433

at 2:34:30 Rick says that Space Marines are castrated. Not sure if this holds any water nowadays though.

Times change. Who knows?

I suspect they are still sterile though.

It's a big galaxy and if space bugs can fly in space without engines, evolve and re-evolve in days or hours, demons can use voodoo magic to spawn out of what can only be described as another dimension and 5 different species of blue people can go from the stone age to a united mech building, energy weapon wielding, space age people in 6 thousands years then you can make your chapter breed like rabbits. With all the craziness in 40k I am surprised there is so much hate against space marines breeding.

If anyone is to tell you something different simply point at their own army and mention some "canon" fluff that is totally outrageous in of itself. No army in 40k nor the 40k universe as a whole truly follows Biological rules or laws of physics. It hardly even follows basic rules and even those rules are so loose they fall off and blow away from time to time. Sometimes GW even breaks their own rules. Until GW hires Master or PHD LvL Science majors to advise their fluff I am not going to use Bachelor Degree lvls of Science or High school lvl science for that matter to tell anyone they can't use something in the Fluff of their own army that they spent a good chunk of money on to make their own.

This is a hobby and, it's your hobby so do it your way. You break no rules in making fluff for your own army, sure it might sound crazy but so is 40k it might not follow the Laws of physics but GW doesn't so why should you.

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.