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Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Is anyone else sick of Necron AB/Wraith spam? It's overpowered, predictable, overly reliable, and dull as dishwater.

How does Thunderstorm work?

I prefer the tooled out daemon prince over more wraiths. My list will only feature 5 and no more. However, I would be dumb not to run 3 AB. Just like an IG player takes his vendetta's or a necron player takes his heldrakes. Those units are the best point for point units in their codex. It would be silly not to run them in a competitive environment.

That's why I like your DP/Necrons list, it's creative and fun. Ugh AB's have such terrible models, otherwise I would spam them like it's 1945.

Damn straight, all these Necrons with Helldrakes.... I mean, was there a Necron list that didn't run them?

Flying DP's, Heldrakes, and Scythes are going to be lower tier once Tau hit the scene in force. Running heavy flyers against them doesn't work.
At my FLGS there are at least 3 skilled Tau players in every event.

Relic07 wrote:

Flying DP's, Heldrakes, and Scythes are going to be lower tier once Tau hit the scene in force. Running heavy flyers against them doesn't work.
At my FLGS there are at least 3 skilled Tau players in every event.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.

Tau isn't going to make flyers/FMC's worse. If anything, they are still a good bet against Tau. You need fast units to play against Tau. Any army that has to foot-slog against them will be in trouble.

 jy2 wrote:

Relic07 wrote:

Flying DP's, Heldrakes, and Scythes are going to be lower tier once Tau hit the scene in force. Running heavy flyers against them doesn't work.
At my FLGS there are at least 3 skilled Tau players in every event.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.

Tau isn't going to make flyers/FMC's worse. If anything, they are still a good bet against Tau. You need fast units to play against Tau. Any army that has to foot-slog against them will be in trouble.

QFT! If tau cant kill that MC in one phase+ overwatch then it is going to be a very long next turn. In addition, flyrants in particular can wreck an entire squad of fire warriors with dakka.

 jy2 wrote:

Relic07 wrote:

Flying DP's, Heldrakes, and Scythes are going to be lower tier once Tau hit the scene in force. Running heavy flyers against them doesn't work.
At my FLGS there are at least 3 skilled Tau players in every event.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.

Tau isn't going to make flyers/FMC's worse. If anything, they are still a good bet against Tau. You need fast units to play against Tau. Any army that has to foot-slog against them will be in trouble.

Sure it will. They can easily spam skyfire and interceptor like no one's business.

You walk into a tournament with a flyer spam army and face a competitive Tau build, you will likely loose.

Relic07 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Relic07 wrote:

Flying DP's, Heldrakes, and Scythes are going to be lower tier once Tau hit the scene in force. Running heavy flyers against them doesn't work.
At my FLGS there are at least 3 skilled Tau players in every event.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.

Tau isn't going to make flyers/FMC's worse. If anything, they are still a good bet against Tau. You need fast units to play against Tau. Any army that has to foot-slog against them will be in trouble.

Sure it will. They can easily spam skyfire and interceptor like no one's business.

You walk into a tournament with a flyer spam army and face a competitive Tau build, you will likely loose.

The thing is, I wouldn't walk into a tourney with a flyer-spam army. I'd walk in with a balanced army. Sure it'll include some flyers, but the main focus would be a solid ground force.

The only exception is daemons. FMC-spam is a very strong daemon build and I guarantee you Tau will have problems against daemon FMC's with 2++ re-rollable Invuln's, 3+ saves with re-roll's on 1's, 4+ FNP and/or +1W with It Will Not Die, not to mention the occasional Iron Arm that a DP may get.

BTW, the only place you will see skyfire is on the Riptides, Tau flyers and the quad-gun/Icarus lascannons. But I expect competitive Tau will run 3 skyfire Riptides just as CSM armies run triple heldrakes.

3 Skyfire Riptides is quite pricey, i'd be surprised to see three of them in the majority of competitive lists. A lot of Tau toys are pricey and you can get more firepower out of Broadsides.


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The 18 Wraith + AB + Scythe list is one of the most god-awful boring things to see everyone play. Completely broken, since all 3 units are far undercosted.

 jy2 wrote:

Relic07 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Relic07 wrote:

Flying DP's, Heldrakes, and Scythes are going to be lower tier once Tau hit the scene in force. Running heavy flyers against them doesn't work.
At my FLGS there are at least 3 skilled Tau players in every event.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.

Tau isn't going to make flyers/FMC's worse. If anything, they are still a good bet against Tau. You need fast units to play against Tau. Any army that has to foot-slog against them will be in trouble.

Sure it will. They can easily spam skyfire and interceptor like no one's business.

You walk into a tournament with a flyer spam army and face a competitive Tau build, you will likely loose.

The thing is, I wouldn't walk into a tourney with a flyer-spam army. I'd walk in with a balanced army. Sure it'll include some flyers, but the main focus would be a solid ground force.

The only exception is daemons. FMC-spam is a very strong daemon build and I guarantee you Tau will have problems against daemon FMC's with 2++ re-rollable Invuln's, 3+ saves with re-roll's on 1's, 4+ FNP and/or +1W with It Will Not Die, not to mention the occasional Iron Arm that a DP may get.

BTW, the only place you will see skyfire is on the Riptides, Tau flyers and the quad-gun/Icarus lascannons. But I expect competitive Tau will run 3 skyfire Riptides just as CSM armies run triple heldrakes.

FMC Daemons is not a competitive build. It is gimmicky. You are counting on the grimoire working to get a 2+ invuln, and 3+ saves don't matter to Tau as they will blow right threw a 3+.
One failed grounding test, and the T5 princes are toast. FMC Daemons also fails miserably against a good horde army, not to mention a competitive Grey Knight build will just flat out pwn them.

Broadsides can provide a nice skyfire option. I have seen it used locally to great effect.

In any case, mark my words: This time next year, flyer spam lists will no longer be placing at top tables.

In any case, mark my words: This time next year, flyer spam lists will no longer be placing at top tables.

Probably but the reason is going to be the changing of the rule sets via Faq's and newer codexs. This is how GW makes money with their Rock/paper/scissors, milking the awesomeness of the current meta until the next meta comes.

Heres the problem with that thought; none of the t16 armies were flyer spam armies. I ran 3 (2 Scythes, 1 Dragon), a couple others ran 3, and a couple people ran 2. You wanna hate on something, hate on Anni Barges. Those are some darn good gunboats for 90pts.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

In any case, mark my words: This time next year, flyer spam lists will no longer be placing at top tables.

Probably but the reason is going to be the changing of the rule sets via Faq's and newer codexs. This is how GW makes money with their Rock/paper/scissors, milking the awesomeness of the current meta until the next meta comes.

Agreed, BUT we are already there. Codex Tau puts a big dent in flyer heavy lists.

LValx wrote:
3 Skyfire Riptides is quite pricey, i'd be surprised to see three of them in the majority of competitive lists. A lot of Tau toys are pricey and you can get more firepower out of Broadsides.

Yet they are good enough that I can see competitive Tau lists spamming them. They outclass the crisis suits in almost every way in terms of versatility and are also Tau's best anti-air solution, much like flyrants are for tyranids.

The 18 Wraith + AB + Scythe list is one of the most god-awful boring things to see everyone play. Completely broken, since all 3 units are far undercosted.

Hey! That's my army you're talking about.




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Relic07 wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

In any case, mark my words: This time next year, flyer spam lists will no longer be placing at top tables.

Probably but the reason is going to be the changing of the rule sets via Faq's and newer codexs. This is how GW makes money with their Rock/paper/scissors, milking the awesomeness of the current meta until the next meta comes.

Agreed, BUT we are already there. Codex Tau puts a big dent in flyer heavy lists.

No, it isn't because of Tau.

Rather, it is because of resilient ground forces that can limit flyer movement and easily deal with the 5-man troops that they have to spit out at the end of the game onto objectives.

Tau is decent against flyers but the main reason for people not taking flyer-spam lists is for balance. In a tournament, you need to have a solid foundation and that is your ground forces.

I think the first person I saw running it was actually Eric Hoerger! lol.

I think Riptides are really good as well. But spamming 3 is difficult. I'd think pairs are most likely. I myself only take 1, but i'd like two.

LValx wrote:
I think the first person I saw running it was actually Eric Hoerger! lol.

I think Riptides are really good as well. But spamming 3 is difficult. I'd think pairs are most likely. I myself only take 1, but i'd like two.

My battle against Reecius' missile-spam wolves actually inspired him to run that list at SVDM 2012 (I've had a few chats with him via PM with regards to wraithwing necrons back in 5th).

Personally, I'd only run 2 riptides myself. Then again, I also said that you shouldn't run more than 2 heldrakes in a CSM army because it would imbalance the army. Doesn't matter what I say. People will still spam the good units.

Well, consider me wrong! Still, I'd imagine the majority of players running that sort of list came up with it on their own. It is easy to independently conjure up a list that simply runs the most threatening/undercosted units in a codex. Its similar to missile wolves/flyrant+tervigon/henchmen+psyflemen, etc. lots of builds are obvious due to certain units being way to overpowered or undercosted. I'd put scythes/barges/wraiths into undercosted. Closest, imo, to an easy button there is (now that flamers/screamers are gone).

Only problems I see for Riptides are that Broadsides/HS/Marker sources will compete with them heavily. And if Tau players take allies, which I think they should and many will, then it'll be difficult to always sink too many pts in pricey MCs. Tides can be pretty pricey for a lg blast that good players can mitigate with spacing.

A lot of people talk about flyer spam and 3 heldrake lists etc. , but I think Adepticon goes to show that these lists aren't really competitive and yet still a bunch of people brought them.

All about balance. Plus Heldrakes are so prevalent that people have started building with them in mind.

D6Damager wrote:
A lot of people talk about flyer spam and 3 heldrake lists etc. , but I think Adepticon goes to show that these lists aren't really competitive and yet still a bunch of people brought them.

Any single event is a poor measuring stick for demonstrating what is "competitive." The overemphasis on kill points and relic missions at Adepticon no doubt skewed the representation and success of certain builds. Many of the attendees who I've spoken with changed their armies specifically to accommodate the unusual mission representation. Nick's list, for example, was obviously chosen because giant Paladin squads are extremely useful for both limiting kill points and capturing the relic.

Kill points is not a good indicator for sixth edition.

Are they going to upload recorded games from the championship rounds at all?

I'd settle for getting the sound turned back on. But who knows?

 jy2 wrote:

LValx wrote:
I think the first person I saw running it was actually Eric Hoerger! lol.

I think Riptides are really good as well. But spamming 3 is difficult. I'd think pairs are most likely. I myself only take 1, but i'd like two.

My battle against Reecius' missile-spam wolves actually inspired him to run that list at SVDM 2012 (I've had a few chats with him via PM with regards to wraithwing necrons back in 5th).

Personally, I'd only run 2 riptides myself. Then again, I also said that you shouldn't run more than 2 heldrakes in a CSM army because it would imbalance the army. Doesn't matter what I say. People will still spam the good units.

I try to not rely on flyers or flavor models of the month myself. It is not because I can not afford them, it is because everyone else is playing has them in their list. That is not out of the box thinking, Once you find out the standard synergy of your opponents army list, to me it becomes a forgone conclusion.

I also find it very rewarding is when someone thinks out of the box. Win or lose it does not matter to me against that type of player, because that is when I continue to learn about the game.

And there is still plenty to learn about the game.

And you are right about the imbalance as well.

Whigwam was running 18 Wraiths and 5 Barges almost immediately after the new Cron codex came out. When Jy2 started posting battle reports I had to break the bad news to Whig that his army had been netdecked.

I assume quite a few people came to the same conclusions around the same time period.

CONGRATS to They Shall Know Fear for winning the team tournament again this year.

Brad Tonwnsend
Nick Nanavati
Aaron Aleong
Andrew Gonyo

Imperial Team GK x 3 IG x 1

I played at the championships, and obviously I run Necrons and have been since 3rd edition. Through trial and error I have run several incarnations of my older list using things like C'tan, scarabs, and Monliths only to be horribly disappointed by the points inefficiencies of those units in the current codex. As I built and play tested my list I ended up dropping expensive lords in favor of just using D. Lords and wraiths. I resisted using A. Barges, but gave one a shot and realized three are far better than any other H. Support we have access to. My list ended up at Adepticon with two Nightscythes, 3 barges, 12 wraiths and 2 D. Lords, and though these were common elements in several Necron lists, I walked the room and did not find a single Necron army that was identical to any other.

So to call people's list copies of a "net deck" list someone else created, is not only an exaggeration, but its also insulting. Necrons are simply a top tier codex at this time, but there is plenty of room for personal tweaking and when combined with allies there is a great amount of variation. To discredit someone for building a good list and taking advantage of using allies to make up for the long range, and horde accessability that the Necron codex suffers from is just bad sportsmanship, and is borderring on just plain flaming to downright trolling. These lists were nothing like the leaf lower IG army list copies I've seen in Adepticon's from years past.

Whoooaahhh slow down buddy, nobody is trying to discredit you, sans a few trolls here and there.

I said it was silly for someone to try and take sole credit for an an archetype which MANY people stumbled upon at the same time, that's all.

I was there on day 2, also playing a variant of Necrons/allies which I took the time to build from the ground up as soon as the new CSM codex came out, and I can confirm that no two lists were alike.

The netdeck comment was a joke in reference to the competitive MtG scene I used to be a part of..

I'm sorry, you bring a 3AB 2Wraith D-Lord spam list and you tell us you're a special metallic flower? I don't buy it. Say what you want about the necrons there, all the top lists had 3xAB 2xWraiths D-Lord. The last original Necron list I saw was the one in TK's final with Imotekh the Stormlord.

Then again, if I could get 3x Str 7 spamming AV13 Skimmers for 90 points each....

And Relic07, Tau can get skyfire (they don't need Interceptor to shoot ground things) quite easily but their anti-air is still pretty mediocre compared to Vendetta spam. Maybe at the end of 6th, when all the flyers are balanced, Tau will be the best anti-flyer race,but flyers in the winning lists aren't there to carry the army to victory, just battlebus. Tau anti-flyer spam is weak against everything else... including flyer spam with strong ground support.

Congrats to TSKF on their repeat! Nanavati's bringing home a lot of awards this year!

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I'm sorry, you bring a 3AB 2Wraith D-Lord spam list and you tell us you're a special metallic flower? I don't buy it. Say what you want about the necrons there, all the top lists had 3xAB 2xWraiths D-Lord. The last original Necron list I saw was the one in TK's final with Imotekh the Stormlord.

Then again, if I could get 3x Str 7 spamming AV13 Skimmers for 90 points each....

And Relic07, Tau can get skyfire (they don't need Interceptor to shoot ground things) quite easily but their anti-air is still pretty mediocre compared to Vendetta spam. Maybe at the end of 6th, when all the flyers are balanced, Tau will be the best anti-flyer race,but flyers in the winning lists aren't there to carry the army to victory, just battlebus. Tau anti-flyer spam is weak against everything else... including flyer spam with strong ground support.

Well sorry buddy, but each necron list was unique at tournament. If you don't believe it, look at the coverage on spikey bits blog for great pics of the armies, I challenge you to find two identical lists amongst the Necrons.

Asmodai: Not all the lists had 2x Wraith squads and Dlord..

Don't feel bad about developing the Necron list.

I played Daemons when the codex first came out, and experimented with every build under the sun.

When the White Dwarf update came out, I developed a list virtually identicle to the one that took 1st at Feast of Blades.
And this was weeks before they received any tournament coverage.

When I mentioned this in the forum, I was spammed with bull$hit. Par for the course on dakka.

But on another note, these big events usually always revolve around the current top codex\build. Player skill matters a bit, but it's mostly
in what you take. For example, if Nick would have been running Vanilla Marines, Orks, Eldar, or a myriad of other codexes, he wouldn't have won.

Somewhat depressing if you feel like you should be able to take your army into a fair event. I don't see it ever changing.