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My LGS has tournements every month and I don't see much of a terminator pressence anymore. Unless its of the T6 W4 variety. The month I won power armor bros were a true workhorse. Having twice the shots for the same price as a terminator squad pays dividends over the course of a game. Sure you need to rely a lot more on cover depending what you are facing but thats the norm. I do truly miss my terminators/paladins though. Oh, LoS why can't you still be cheesy. :(

I miss our terminators/paladins too. :( Maybe I'll field DW terminators and use my GK ones as "counts as"

Any thoughts on synergies between the DA codex and ours?

Also, potential "cheese" lists that might come up against us? I know in my local meta some guys ran Ravenwing squads with a Darkshroud 'speeder with teleport homers. Turn 1 scout move + rapidfire plasma weapons, turn 2 deepstrike DW terminators. & DW Knights. Some other armies I've seen lost pretty badly because of this, but I think we're fine since we've Warp Quake...

 Enigwolf wrote:
I miss our terminators/paladins too. :( Maybe I'll field DW terminators and use my GK ones as "counts as"

Any thoughts on synergies between the DA codex and ours?

Also, potential "cheese" lists that might come up against us? I know in my local meta some guys ran Ravenwing squads with a Darkshroud 'speeder with teleport homers. Turn 1 scout move + rapidfire plasma weapons, turn 2 deepstrike DW terminators. & DW Knights. Some other armies I've seen lost pretty badly because of this, but I think we're fine since we've Warp Quake...

Was I sleeping a week? The codex isn't out till saturday, right?

DakotaBlue wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I miss our terminators/paladins too. :( Maybe I'll field DW terminators and use my GK ones as "counts as"

Any thoughts on synergies between the DA codex and ours?

Also, potential "cheese" lists that might come up against us? I know in my local meta some guys ran Ravenwing squads with a Darkshroud 'speeder with teleport homers. Turn 1 scout move + rapidfire plasma weapons, turn 2 deepstrike DW terminators. & DW Knights. Some other armies I've seen lost pretty badly because of this, but I think we're fine since we've Warp Quake...

Was I sleeping a week? The codex isn't out till saturday, right?

Some guy who just came back from overseas already has a 'dex. Whether it's genuine or not is a different story.

The white dwarf has been out now and you can glean a lot from the battle report even though they didn't follow the foc. Still don't know points though you can see some of the potential rules though not exact wording

I can't wait to see a buddies DA dex. I'm sure Belial and friends are not going to be the cheap "If you want termies take us" allies they are right now. Who knows they might even become our new terminators if they have good plasma options at a reasonable price. Halberds pwn everything they face except 2+ saves and lose most of the time in a termi vs termi matchup. Conscripting some plasma and storm shield termies into chapter 666 might be good.

 Goat wrote:
I can't wait to see a buddies DA dex. I'm sure Belial and friends are not going to be the cheap "If you want termies take us" allies they are right now. Who knows they might even become our new terminators if they have good plasma options at a reasonable price. Halberds pwn everything they face except 2+ saves and lose most of the time in a termi vs termi matchup. Conscripting some plasma and storm shield termies into chapter 666 might be good.

DW Terminators can take plasma cannons. What's there not to like about that? Hell, I wish our termies could take plasma cannons and stormshields. :( Also, check the stuff on Faeit212. It's pretty accurate.

Siderant: Why can't other GK be as smart as Draigo and hold a stormshield in one hand, CCW and bolter in the other...?

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I can't wait to see a buddies DA dex. I'm sure Belial and friends are not going to be the cheap "If you want termies take us" allies they are right now. Who knows they might even become our new terminators if they have good plasma options at a reasonable price. Halberds pwn everything they face except 2+ saves and lose most of the time in a termi vs termi matchup. Conscripting some plasma and storm shield termies into chapter 666 might be good.

DW Terminators can take plasma cannons. What's there not to like about that? Hell, I wish our termies could take plasma cannons and stormshields. :( Also, check the stuff on Faeit212. It's pretty accurate.

Siderant: Why can't other GK be as smart as Draigo and hold a stormshield in one hand, CCW and bolter in the other...?

Draigo defies the logic of other codex terminators. They have no free hands for grenades. Draigo is so over the top he can hold sword and shield and still pitch grenades. The rest of the GK terminators have the stormbolter hand free to throw grenades and stay at Initiative 4 when going throw terrain. Conculsion Draigo has 3 arms.

 Goat wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I can't wait to see a buddies DA dex. I'm sure Belial and friends are not going to be the cheap "If you want termies take us" allies they are right now. Who knows they might even become our new terminators if they have good plasma options at a reasonable price. Halberds pwn everything they face except 2+ saves and lose most of the time in a termi vs termi matchup. Conscripting some plasma and storm shield termies into chapter 666 might be good.

DW Terminators can take plasma cannons. What's there not to like about that? Hell, I wish our termies could take plasma cannons and stormshields. :( Also, check the stuff on Faeit212. It's pretty accurate.

Siderant: Why can't other GK be as smart as Draigo and hold a stormshield in one hand, CCW and bolter in the other...?

Draigo defies the logic of other codex terminators. They have no free hands for grenades. Draigo is so over the top he can hold sword and shield and still pitch grenades. The rest of the GK terminators have the stormbolter hand free to throw grenades and stay at Initiative 4 when going throw terrain. Conculsion Draigo has 3 arms.

Maybe his shield or his stormbolter has a hidden grenade launcher.

Ditto.

Neat stuff comming out of the DA codex stuff. Apparently their fliers are just kind of meh so I'm not sure of their counter air abilities as for 25 points more you can get a storm raven but their flakk missles on tactical squads can be useful.

I suddenly see more fun times with modrak bomb along with a DA deathwing assault with Belial as he won't scatter. They are also twin linked the turn they come in so can lay down some hurt. Massive amounts of shots from the modrak ghost knights on troops while the belial bunch can nuke down a vehicle or something from the rear armor. Also can get some interceptors or DK to shunt forwards (with possibly psycannons to the rear armor). It'll be a totally in your face army by turn 2 almost no matter what.

Technically turn 1 but assault by turn 2 almost no matter where you hide. Just have problems doing it against other GK I suppose lol.

I haven't checked on drop pods yet but I see yet more fun times dropping things on your enemy.

It's almost like I'm playing chaos daemons with all the deep striking lol


Some interesting wargear choices like Auspex can reduce enemy cover saves by 1 if you don't shoot with the model holding the Auspex.
Rad shells ( -1 toughness to unit when hit by this thing, 18' blast) will be something that synergizes well with our rad grenade inquisitors/techmarine. However, it's also extremely dangerous vs our henchmen and inquisitor HQ's as even a str 4 bolter will be able to instant death our multi-wound HQ's if hit by one of these things.

Not quite sure how to feel about all the crazy banner rules. I'll have to go read more on that a bit later on.

 Goat wrote:
My LGS has tournements every month and I don't see much of a terminator pressence anymore. Unless its of the T6 W4 variety. The month I won power armor bros were a true workhorse. Having twice the shots for the same price as a terminator squad pays dividends over the course of a game. Sure you need to rely a lot more on cover depending what you are facing but thats the norm. I do truly miss my terminators/paladins though. Oh, LoS why can't you still be cheesy. :(

I still embrace the Paladin Love. My 2k is pretty much Draigo, 15 paladins, 2 DK's and a Storm Raven for my 2+ themed army. Still very viable. And with the Meta changing to see a lot more anti MeQ infantry Weapons on the table i think Paladins/Termies are some of the best choices. Although melta can really ruin my day.

Joe, have you ever just attatched Mordrak to a 10 man strike squad and just save the points on the ghost knights? I've tried it out and liked it a lot. Having mordrak upfront to take some hits and let him spawn ghost knights into the squad.

 Goat wrote:
Joe, have you ever just attatched Mordrak to a 10 man strike squad and just save the points on the ghost knights? I've tried it out and liked it a lot. Having mordrak upfront to take some hits and let him spawn ghost knights into the squad.

I'm not sure that's a legal combination but could be fun if it worked. Modrak does not have the Indepedent character rule. He can't joint any units other than the ghost knights that are bought for him. When all the ghosts are dead, he reverts to a single model unit but never gains the IC rule.

 sudojoe wrote:

 Goat wrote:
Joe, have you ever just attatched Mordrak to a 10 man strike squad and just save the points on the ghost knights? I've tried it out and liked it a lot. Having mordrak upfront to take some hits and let him spawn ghost knights into the squad.

I'm not sure that's a legal combination but could be fun if it worked. Modrak does not have the Indepedent character rule. He can't joint any units other than the ghost knights that are bought for him. When all the ghosts are dead, he reverts to a single model unit but never gains the IC rule.

Oh, crap... well that changes things for this weekends tourney. I didn't even notice. I just seen it in his special rules. "Mordrak and any unit he's attached to... blah blah blah" and figured.

I got a look at the DA codex today. I feel that Deathwing became really overcosted. The Flyers are very expensive for what they do, but the Ravenwing bikes are amazing if the typo for the command squad turns out to be how I think it is.

The bikers can all have Salvo 2/4 for their Boltguns. This means that DA can put out more shots than we can per squad at 24 inches. Add in that they can take dual Plasmaguns in those squads and its a pretty vicious combo. I'm thinking that Guard Blobs won't be such a great ally, but again this is only if the typo for the command squad is fixed soon.

Anyways its possible to take a Tactical Squad as an objective holder or scouts and then take a large Ravenwing squad as allies for us. It could really help increase the damage potential that GK can put out.

Taking a heavy for 5 man tac squads is cool to, I normally play aegis line with strike squads, so adding a small 5 man tac squad with flakk missile laucher to put behind the line might be a great cheap way to use the troops allies tax.

Libbys are cheap to, dirt cheap, and then just fill out a nice size ravenwing squad, lots of ideas

So with Nova and 1750 lists now upcoming what are people planning to play? I've been testing with friends and we have a few unexpected lists ...


== Doing the Monster Mash ==
HQ: 1 Malleus Inquisitor (TDA. Psycannon, Prescience) 110 (GK)
HQ: 1 Avatar of Khaine 155 (EL)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 15 Storm Guardians (2 Flamers, Spiritseer, Conceal, Singing Spear) 173 (EL)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Dreadnought (Dual TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition) 135 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Wraithlord (Missile Launcher, Scatterlaser 135 (EL)

- so this is the list that you have sen many pages back toned down for 1750. I had to drop Draigo - I miss him. At 1750 the list works okay but Draigo was rather important - nice to have scoring DKs.


== NecKnights ==

HQ: GK Grandmaster (Nemesis Force Halberd) 180 (GK)
HQ: Destroyer Lord, Sempiternal weave, MSS 160
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troops: 5 Warriors [Nec], 165 
1 Night Scythe [Nec] (TL Tesla Destructor)
Troops: 5 Warriors [Nec], 165 
1 Night Scythe [Nec] (TL Tesla Destructor)
Fast Attack: 5 Wraiths (1 Whip Coil) 185 (Nec) Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Anihilation Barge (Nec) 90

- this list plays better in the current meta methinks. It just has more answers all round. I have cc capabiliteies, AA and decent dakka with the grandmaster adding some scoring troops to the mix.

 felixcat wrote:

So with Nova and 1750 lists now upcoming what are people planning to play? I've been testing with friends and we have a few unexpected lists ...


== Doing the Monster Mash ==
HQ: 1 Malleus Inquisitor (TDA. Psycannon, Prescience) 110 (GK)
HQ: 1 Avatar of Khaine 155 (EL)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 15 Storm Guardians (2 Flamers, Spiritseer, Conceal, Singing Spear) 173 (EL)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Dreadnought (Dual TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition) 135 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Wraithlord (Missile Launcher, Scatterlaser 135 (EL)

- so this is the list that you have sen many pages back toned down for 1750. I had to drop Draigo - I miss him. At 1750 the list works okay but Draigo was rather important - nice to have scoring DKs.


== NecKnights ==

HQ: GK Grandmaster (Nemesis Force Halberd) 180 (GK)
HQ: Destroyer Lord, Sempiternal weave, MSS 160
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troops: 5 Warriors [Nec], 165 
1 Night Scythe [Nec] (TL Tesla Destructor)
Troops: 5 Warriors [Nec], 165 
1 Night Scythe [Nec] (TL Tesla Destructor)
Fast Attack: 5 Wraiths (1 Whip Coil) 185 (Nec) Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Anihilation Barge (Nec) 90

- this list plays better in the current meta methinks. It just has more answers all round. I have cc capabiliteies, AA and decent dakka with the grandmaster adding some scoring troops to the mix.

Not that much of a fan of the first one as I typically find that eldar bring the best anti-psyker and are good at buffs but some of their guns aren't as good as they used to be. Also, that wraithlord doesn't have an eldar psyker guiding it does it? Won't it just seize up like a servator every once in a while? Lack of air support or anti-air will kind of hurt as well as lack of mobility since everything is just footslogging. More of a fun list that I can see more than anything else.

The necron list you have is pretty close to what I'm doing with GK + necrons lately cept I use coteaz to sit on the back and use a doomscythe instead of the annhiliation barge. I do miss the scoring dreadknight in that scenario but I do manage to slap a teleporter on him usually to get in people's faces the same time as the wraithstar hits and or support the arrival of the air forces. It's got pretty good balance of things and really just suffer a bit from mostly just medium range weapons. Fast dark eldar things are annoying to fight with this due to night shields but overall the fliers will be able to get in there and negate that advantage.

There is a spiritseer in the list. I've not had the problem yet ... the list does lack psychic defense though. Overall it is not terrible but there are some holes.

We tried the Coteaz/henchman variant of list two. It works but plays differently for sure. And henchmen need transports that just fail at times leaving fragile troops exposed. Why the doomscythe? It isn't really that good. It is quite expensive and more of a fear factor. It has very weak armour and does things that the night scythe does as well and the A. Barge does cheaper. On paper it looks better but you can only hit other flyers in hover mode and Gk and Necs already have all the tools needed for tanks and infantry. Saving 85 points and taking an A. Barge makes more sense to me.

The doom scythe is there for me to tackle hard to penetrate things that are depending on stealth/shrouding at 12' - ya looking at you Tau Hammerheads.

Also vs bastions which are being fielded fairly frequently as are land raiders which locally is making a come back. As much as I like psycannons and my str 7 spam, 10 warriors are not enough gauss to glance heavy hitters to death nor is AP4 psycannons any good even with a rend. As of current edition wording, only wounds get the AP2, armor pens are not wounds thus people have not been kind enough to allow the AP2 to apply to armor pen by strict RAW reading. I'm still personally waiting for a FAQ to change this but I've tried the argument myself over at YMDC and that's the current popular opinion. While I save points on the A.barge, it's still restricted to roughly the same range as other things so I mostly depend on the doom scythe to get those tough to kill, high armor things that may require me to get pretty close.

DE ravagers or venoms can be brutally annoying to get to by foot as you'll really be hammered from 36' out while you need to close to 18' to shoot back from night shields. A.barges just don't work as well vs alot of lances. Rather hide and come in later on to hopefully bring things down.

Coteaz is mostly just there to give me some cheap 12 point scoring troops. The main body of the GK's SS's can stay the same. The grand master could have only made the DK scoring as far as I can tell. Can't affect necrons with his power as far as I'm aware but it's kind of a rules grey area.

I'm not familar with the spiritseer so I can't really comment on that combination.

While the warscythe lord + wraiths are good vs some of the targets I listed above, I find that he can't be everywhere at once and can sometimes get tied down keeping fast movers off my lines like spawns and or potentially be going after different targets. Also one game they got wiped out by a suicide melta grey hunter 5 man squad + rune priest in a pod with JAWS lol
(was an objective game so I didn't go first and he got the "drop" on me before warp quake could go up.)

Edit:

ok Looked up what a spirit seer does so I guess it does work. May perhaps consider using some crazy contemptor mortis if you guys are allowing forge world as it can get skyfire and interceptor with twin linked auto cannons along with psybolt and missles at good range. Also it's BS5 but it's like 200+ points at that range.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/499195.page

Big talking point here in relation to us (mostly) about feel no pain vs force weapons, I guess it will be up to the TO otherwise house rule/roll of.

I say no to feel no pain as if the psychic test is passed, the wounds immediately become instant death, thus ignoring feel no pain.

 tuiman wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/499195.page

Big talking point here in relation to us (mostly) about feel no pain vs force weapons, I guess it will be up to the TO otherwise house rule/roll of.

I say no to feel no pain as if the psychic test is passed, the wounds immediately become instant death, thus ignoring feel no pain.

No one I've ever played with in my FLGS has ever called me out on ID'ing through FNP. =/ Let's face it, it doesn't make sense.

Oh I agree entirely, my main opponent is blood angels and hes fine with it, its how I have always played,

Expect to be questioned about it more though I guess. Just a loop hole people like to find and rave about until an official faq is ever put out.

Got some more looks at the DA codex and it's got some nice features that definately can give our gunlines big headaches.

Their stealth generating land speeder is pretty boss and can be as hard to kill as Tau since it's essentially got a 2+ cover in the open with a flat out. We only really have perfect timing to help offset this at range. The DK incinerator can possibly reach it as well but would be kind of tough to bring down for standard gunline set up. That thing set up with some ruins and a banner of devestation to give bolters salvo 2/4 can be pretty tough to breach especially if a techmarine bolsterd it. Pretty much everything with a 2+ cover and would be very tough to budge. 24' bolter death wall.

Throw some cheap devestators in there too and they can get range and better damage against alot of our henchmen shooting. Good thing auspex only works at 12' or we'd be royally hosed. Someone else pointed out on a different thread that IG with cammocapes/cover netting w/e they are called, + aegis + stealth field would have like a battery of artillery with 2+ cover pounding our lines. I don't have much that can counter this yet lol.

The land speeder going with ravingwing bikes can get into our faces also really fast with nice cover saves via flat out saves and stealth along with T5 melee possibly with some sort of FNP banner. Henchmen really some sort of counter assault in place as far as I'm concerned. Strike squads is a possibility vs keeping some purifiers or DCA around.

Our stike squads can help at least with warp quake vs belial's massive terminators in our face. Also their knights will be T5 and possibly with some FnP deep striking in our face. Being that tough with 3++, I'm not even sure coteaz's I've been expecting you will be quite enough to stop them all. More to come as I'll try to proxy some stuff against myself since no one here actually plays DA.

Their super cheap librarians come in at just 65 points so got me jealous quite a bit even with our inquisitiors.

Lastly, I see quite a bit of fun with the vindicare as we can snipe their banner guys nicely at least.

Its going to be a really tough nut to crack, but once hits go through the darkshroud will die quickly. It'll die to weight of fire which GK have loads of. I don't think it'll be a huge issue for us to handle. What does bother me is the grenade launcher that fires Rad Grenades. It makes it easier to take down MEQ's now and just about anything.

I'm in agreement with the Rad Grenades, T3 marines are not fun to have. =/ Anyhoo, regarding the Darkshroud, most lists I'm seeing now for GK field DKs with Heavy Incinerators, or Teleport Packs. Even with a Heavy Psycannon, remember that if you're within (I believe?) 6" of them of the same ruin, they can't claim the terrain's cover save.

I've yet to try a proper game against them, since I've been theoryhammering most of it with my FLGS' local cheese player. Can someone remind me what Auspex does?

Also, with the size of basilisks and other IG tanks, I'd be very hesitant to give them a cover save from the ADL (also depending on the angle of firing), since it does state that you need to be concealed by it to gain the cover save - it doesn't work by simply standing behind it. That being said, my Elysian Tauros Venators are low enough that they can claim that save...

My real worry is only Belial's terminators, and I'm determined that Warp Quake will be more important than ever now.

T3 marines yes but the T2 inquisitors getting one shot by bolters is what scares me.

Auspex is at 12', and reduces enemy cover save by 1


Do you have a reference on where it says you don't get a cover if within 6' of the same place? I don't see any mention of that in the book under shooting or cover or ruins. On the flip side, I just realized that ruins are area terrain and that you get a +2 to cover save when going to ground in there. I never knew that and somewhat surprised it took this long for it to have come up. I get a 2+ cover naturally in regular ruins by going to ground with my strike squads now. Woots. Thanks for making me looks stuff up as I've realized I've been playing it wrong for a while now.

 sudojoe wrote:
T3 marines yes but the T2 inquisitors getting one shot by bolters is what scares me.

Auspex is at 12', and reduces enemy cover save by 1


Do you have a reference on where it says you don't get a cover if within 6' of the same place? I don't see any mention of that in the book under shooting or cover or ruins. On the flip side, I just realized that ruins are area terrain and that you get a +2 to cover save when going to ground in there. I never knew that and somewhat surprised it took this long for it to have come up. I get a 2+ cover naturally in regular ruins by going to ground with my strike squads now. Woots. Thanks for making me looks stuff up as I've realized I've been playing it wrong for a while now.

Hm, now that I'm looking it up too, I can't seem to find it either. I remember that it was described that they don't get a cover save simply because you're firing point blank at them. Does anyone have a recollection of this, or was this something from 5th ed that I carried over without checking...?

 Enigwolf wrote:


Hm, now that I'm looking it up too, I can't seem to find it either. I remember that it was described that they don't get a cover save simply because you're firing point blank at them. Does anyone have a recollection of this, or was this something from 5th ed that I carried over without checking...?

That's a 5th relic. People at my FLGS (including me) were playing like that for a few months after 6th until someone decided to look it up.