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 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So when it comes to equipping Paladins/Termies, are Halberds still the way to go, or are swords better now? I'd think that with only one exception (Incubi), most things that hit at AP2 now go at the after you, and those few that do now (DPs, GDs, Genestealers, Avatar of Khaine) will still go before you even with the Halberds, or be I1 since you have the psyk-out grenades making I6 pointless, in which case you'd want the 4++ in case it survives your first round of attacks.

And wow I just realized something, anyone else think the Super high initiative of new Daemons/Avatar was created specifically in response to GK halberds?

I'm interested in people's thoughts on this post...

Pretty sure it was answered. 2 hammers, 2 halberds, 1 sword per 5 TDA seems to be the forum favorite, with max Psycannons. Banners are preferred on CC oriented squads, Psybolts at 10man only, and Staves on Justicars if you have the points (halberds if you don't).

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Pretty sure it was answered. 2 hammers, 2 halberds, 1 sword per 5 TDA seems to be the forum favorite, with max Psycannons. Banners are preferred on CC oriented squads, Psybolts at 10man only, and Staves on Justicars if you have the points (halberds if you don't).

SJ

Wouldn't a sword be better on the Justicar, since anything that accepts a challenge from him can probably bypass his 2+ armor, hence the 4+ becomes very useful?

Edit: nevermind, Halberd means he'll probably kill most anything that can bypass his armor.

On the discussion about Daemons i had a few games against them this week end and i found that GK were really nice against them.
Prefered ennemy is really nasty against them (reroll 1 to hit&wound in CC&shooting).
This is even better then twin link on ALL your army (except vehicles and henchmen).

There is obviously the risk of the FMC but with MSU you force lots of grounding checks and we are one of the best army against the screamerstar (vindicare + icarius or storm).

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Have an idea about allying Grey Knights into my Eldar list. One thing I found that is really a problem for Eldar are Drop Pods and Deep Strikers dropping right in front of your Serpents. Also against certain enemies going first is a must. Lastly, immense hoards with cover might be an issue for some lists.

I was thinking Coteaz, 10 Strikes and a Dreadknight would make good allies for a 3-4 Serpents list with 2 Wraithknights tacked on. This gives re-roll to seize, Deep Strike protection, some additional AA with Prescienced Psycannons, and the Dreadknight for anti-hoard and more monstery fun.

What do people think about this?

Apologies for double posting this, but it got buried on the last page immediately after posting so don't think anyone will see it, and really could use some opinions.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Have an idea about allying Grey Knights into my Eldar list. One thing I found that is really a problem for Eldar are Drop Pods and Deep Strikers dropping right in front of your Serpents. Also against certain enemies going first is a must. Lastly, immense hoards with cover might be an issue for some lists.

I was thinking Coteaz, 10 Strikes and a Dreadknight would make good allies for a 3-4 Serpents list with 2 Wraithknights tacked on. This gives re-roll to seize, Deep Strike protection, some additional AA with Prescienced Psycannons, and the Dreadknight for anti-hoard and more monstery fun.

What do people think about this?

For mechdar, it really isn't that much of an issue. If you aren't going first, well, then it wouldn't really matter because strikers can't cast Warp Quake anyways. Coteaz's bubble will help, though I find it rather easy for drop pods to deploy out of his range (or at least for the crew to disembark out of his range). At the ATC, I never really got to use Coteaz's ability except once (against Marbo) but then I forgot to use it that time. Lol.

Anyways, getting back on topic, all you really need to do is to deploy your serpents along or close to the edge of your table and the only thing they can fire at is your serpent shielded front/side armor. If you are going first, just move all your skimmers flat-out and, assuming you've got holo-fields, now you have 3+ cover as well. If you're really concerned about your wraithknights, you can always opt to reserve them. However, just keep in mind that it takes a lot to kill them. Even if your opponent was to drop a unit of sternguards with combi-meltas and go after your WK, chances are that he will survive if you place him in area terrain. Then next turn, your opponent can then say bye-bye to his 300+ pt sternguard unit.

If I add GK's to eldar, it isn't really out of necessity. Rather, I'd do it because I think they make for a fun combo. Wraithknights + dreadknight is definitely a fun combo. Coteaz + strikers do bring something to the army, though be aware that they are a rather static unit in an otherwise fast army (plus they are quite susceptible to the dragon CSM builds or riptide ion accelerators+markerlights).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lurker wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So when it comes to equipping Paladins/Termies, are Halberds still the way to go, or are swords better now? I'd think that with only one exception (Incubi), most things that hit at AP2 now go at the after you, and those few that do now (DPs, GDs, Genestealers, Avatar of Khaine) will still go before you even with the Halberds, or be I1 since you have the psyk-out grenades making I6 pointless, in which case you'd want the 4++ in case it survives your first round of attacks.

And wow I just realized something, anyone else think the Super high initiative of new Daemons/Avatar was created specifically in response to GK halberds?

I'm interested in people's thoughts on this post...

I'm finding that I'm liking hammers more and more. Now, I always try to maximize the number of hammers in my paladin builds. Maybe 1-2 halberds, 1-2 swords, 1 banner, 1 stave and the rest hammers in a 10-man Draigowing build. Why hammers? Because they are scary as sh*t. Opposing terminators, riptides, dreadknights, necron overlords and other 2+ opponents don't really care about the AP3 halberds or swords, but hammers will pound them to the ground. Halberds aren't fast enough anyways to strike above daemon princes and their kinds anyways unless you can get the charge in....but in that case, even the sword will strike at about the same time as the halberd due to psyk-out grenades. Swords IMO are better than halberds because now they let you tank a couple of enemy AP2 attacks before you have to allocate it on your other weapons. Stave is the best for such tanking purposes, but I don't normally put staves on anything less than a 10-man unit. So this is my preference: hammers > swords > halberds.

 jy2 wrote:
For mechdar, it really isn't that much of an issue. If you aren't going first, well, then it wouldn't really matter because strikers can't cast Warp Quake anyways. Coteaz's bubble will help, though I find it rather easy for drop pods to deploy out of his range (or at least for the crew to disembark out of his range).

I haven't used Wraithknights yet, so I was basing my concern on previous lists where I had trouble with Drop Pods landing on front of me. It wasn't the initial drop that was the issue, it was the fact that there was too much in my face for me to kill in one go. But I suppose I have forgotten that the Wraithknights make a good anti-drop deterrent.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
For mechdar, it really isn't that much of an issue. If you aren't going first, well, then it wouldn't really matter because strikers can't cast Warp Quake anyways. Coteaz's bubble will help, though I find it rather easy for drop pods to deploy out of his range (or at least for the crew to disembark out of his range).

I haven't used Wraithknights yet, so I was basing my concern on previous lists where I had trouble with Drop Pods landing on front of me. It wasn't the initial drop that was the issue, it was the fact that there was too much in my face for me to kill in one go. But I suppose I have forgotten that the Wraithknights make a good anti-drop deterrent.

Yeah, double-WK's are a great anti-drop deterent. I also run 50 guardians with rending shuriken catapults in my list (along with all that wave serpent firepower) which I will be more than happy to disembark to deal with any drop podding threats. So against those armies, I say, "come at me, bro and I will wipe your units off the table." Seriously, mechdar can easily survive against enemy alpha-strikes, which is one of the reasons why they are so good. And the rate of damage you can do to your opponent usually outpaces the amount of retalitorial damage he can do in return.

Put Coteaz and a dreadknight there and drop pod armies will be foolish to drop right on your doorsteps. However, IMO this may make the list slightly weaker against the more shooty builds and helturkey builds that don't really use any deepstriking units.

So turns out a Draigo deathstar can fold pretty quick when it gets hit with 3x armor save reductions from a warlock squad, ouch. Draigo and pals were at 5+ armor... and with huge torrent of fire, went down pretty quick in my game tonight. Oh well, it was the last turn and we still won (team apoc game).

The twin disruptor WK got a ton of kills, instant deathing another WK on its first shot of the first turn. That thing is a beast, but not so much in CC. A flyrant almost made mince-meat out of it until Draigo came to the rescue with a challenge.

So with Coteaz's special ability, do you shoot at a Mawloc before or after it does damage to you when it comes up out of the ground? Also, what the heck is the wound allocation for that? We just randomized it, so I lost a few Paladins to its S6 AP2 come-out-of-the-ground attack :(

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
So turns out a Draigo deathstar can fold pretty quick when it gets hit with 3x armor save reductions from a warlock squad, ouch. Draigo and pals were at 5+ armor... and with huge torrent of fire, went down pretty quick in my game tonight. Oh well, it was the last turn and we still won (team apoc game).

The twin disruptor WK got a ton of kills, instant deathing another WK on its first shot of the first turn. That thing is a beast, but not so much in CC. A flyrant almost made mince-meat out of it until Draigo came to the rescue with a challenge.

So with Coteaz's special ability, do you shoot at a Mawloc before or after it does damage to you when it comes up out of the ground? Also, what the heck is the wound allocation for that? We just randomized it, so I lost a few Paladins to its S6 AP2 come-out-of-the-ground attack :(

Don't forget Draigo still has his 3++ save even if his armor gets reduced. The seer council is also a reason why I run psyfleman dreadnoughts in my more balanced Draigowing list (I run dreadknights in my "fun" Draigowing list). Now those warlocks are casting on LD4 due to Reinforced Aegis and Draigo will get a 4+ Deny against them....pretty tough for them to use those psychic shenanigans against the knights.

You don't want to assault the WK into hordes or units that can beat him. He is not so much a close-combat beast (though he is above-average in assault) as he is a tarpit unit. Unfortunately, he can get tarpitted himself. What you want to do is to assault your WK and dreadknights into the stronger assault units and beat them with numbers. That's how you should play him.

With regards to the Mawloc, the mawloc hits take place first. He actually doesn't come out until your unit takes the hits and gets pushed out of the way of the large blast. Then the mawloc appears and you can shoot him with I've Been Expecting You. For wound allocation, it doesn't say. You'd just have to talk to your opponent about it. There's probably 2 ways most people would play it. The first is to randomize. The 2nd is to allocate the hits on the actual models touched by the blast marker. Just come to an agreement beforehand in your game.

But with some strike squad or interceptor, you can stop the Mawloc from coming at all

As for the armor save reduction, did he fail ALL his DnW? (with a LvL2 psyker and Aegis)?
Then yeah they can hurt in that case quite a lot (except if he placed Draigo well to tank as he would not care as much)

On the other hand, a SR would hurt the seerstar some as well

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
So turns out a Draigo deathstar can fold pretty quick when it gets hit with 3x armor save reductions from a warlock squad, ouch.

Maybe, but he'd have to be very lucky to roll that power on three of his guys, and he still has to start the turn within 18" of your guys.

sleekid wrote:But with some strike squad or interceptor, you can stop the Mawloc from coming at all

As for the armor save reduction, did he fail ALL his DnW? (with a LvL2 psyker and Aegis)?
Then yeah they can hurt in that case quite a lot (except if he placed Draigo well to tank as he would not care as much)

On the other hand, a SR would hurt the seerstar some as well

Yes, I did manage to fail all the DnW rolls, even the 4+ ones against the warlocks. Draigo's 3+ invuln couldn't hold up against the torrent of fire that came afterwards.

I need to look up Aegis again, evidently; don't even think I used it.

Evidently, it is still the same as before, in that it reduces their leadership. That really could have done some work against those Warlocks... damn.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
So turns out a Draigo deathstar can fold pretty quick when it gets hit with 3x armor save reductions from a warlock squad, ouch.

Maybe, but he'd have to be very lucky to roll that power on three of his guys, and he still has to start the turn within 18" of your guys.

Yes, he was very lucky that he rolled that, and he told me as much afterwards. He had his Warlocks and Spirit Seer inside of a Wave Serpent, moved up 6 in the serpent, dudes got out and moved up 6, then used powers. Pretty large threat range I'd say.

Maledictions are start-of-turn powers, and have to be used BEFORE you move. So if you're not within range at the start of the turn, you can't be affected that turn.

 Janthkin wrote:
Maledictions are start-of-turn powers, and have to be used BEFORE you move. So if you're not within range at the start of the turn, you can't be affected that turn.

Wow, totally didn't realize this. Well then...

Hi everyone

After a long time, I've finished painting my Grey knights army and I want to start playing in the local league (1500 pts), but I've no idea on how to build it properly.
I know I want to play paladins and psyfleman dreadnoughts (no dreadknights) just because how they look.

I see there's some draigowing experts here so I'm asking for advice to build a balanced list.


Thanks in advance.

Seizeman wrote:
Hi everyone

After a long time, I've finished painting my Grey knights army and I want to start playing in the local league (1500 pts), but I've no idea on how to build it properly.
I know I want to play paladins and psyfleman dreadnoughts (no dreadknights) just because how they look.

I see there's some draigowing experts here so I'm asking for advice to build a balanced list.


Thanks in advance.

jy2 is your man to speak to about current day Draigowing. I personally think they can still work, especially when paired with Coteaz' cheap Henchmen or Imperial Guard.

Seizeman wrote:
Hi everyone

After a long time, I've finished painting my Grey knights army and I want to start playing in the local league (1500 pts), but I've no idea on how to build it properly.
I know I want to play paladins and psyfleman dreadnoughts (no dreadknights) just because how they look.

I see there's some draigowing experts here so I'm asking for advice to build a balanced list.


Thanks in advance.

This is my abbreviated tactica on how to build a Draigowing army.

To play Draigowing successfully, you have to be aware of 2 main things:

1) Know your limitations. Build your army to address those limitations.

2) Your supporting units is probably just as important if not even more important that your "deathstar" unit.


1. Limitations:

As with any deathstar army - or an army that invests too heavily onto just 1 unit - they have some glaring weaknesses that can be exploited. You need to understand that in order to know how to compensate for your weaknesses. Some of the weaknesses of a Draigowing build include:

Slow. Lack of mobility.

Can only target 1 unit at a time.

Expensive deathstar. Thus, supporting units tend to be weak and vulnerable.

2. Supporting Units:

Do not go overboard on your "deathstar". The more you invest in your deathstar, the more unbalanced the army becomes. Just as important as the deathstar itself is the supporting units, or the units that you surround your deathstar with. Those units need to address the weaknesses of the deathstar itself. I recommend that you spend at least as many points (or even more) on the supporting units than you do on the deathstar unit itself. Thus, at 1500, I don't believe a full 10-man paladinstar unit is viable as now the deathstar would be much, much more expensive than the supporting units.

In any case, your supporting units need to address the limitations of the deathstar:

Mobility. You need to address the lack of mobility of your deathstar. There are several options: henchmen in transports, deepstriking soladins (or single-paladin units, stormraven or allies.

You need to be able to target multiple units. For this reason, I like the psyfleman dreads as they have the range to soften up multiple units while your deathstar is advancing. Other viable units to help you deal with multiple targets include henchmen in transports or perhaps some allies.

As your deathstar is expensive, you need efficient supporting units. Many Draigowing armies run dreadknights but IMO, they aren't really efficient due to their costs. I wouldn't recommend these units unless you are playing at higher-points games (i.e. at least 1750 or higher). Instead, some of the more efficient units are henchmen in transports, Coteaz, soladins, psyfleman dreads and allies. The rule-of-thumb here is to keep the costs of your supporting units low.

Example of a 1500 Draigowing Army:

At 1500, I really don't want to go with a full-blown 10-man paladinstar as it really unbalances your army. Rather, I'm going to start with a 5-man unit. Also, I normally run necron allies to my Draigowing list, but at 1500, you will have to go very lean. For this example, I am going to use only Grey Knight units.

Also keep in mind that there are many ways to build a Draigowing army. This is just 1 build that I like. Adjust as you see fit.


HQ - 375-pts

Coteaz
Draigo

Coteaz will unlock henchmen as troops. Moreover, he is a great utility character that can only make your army better.


TROOPS - 515-pts

5x Paladins - 2x Psycannons, Banner, 3x Hammers, 1x Sword - 340

1x Paladin - Hammer - 55

3x Crusaders, 5x Deathcult Assassins - 120

Soladin (1x Paladin units) will deepstrike to give me some mobility. You can control their coming in from reserves to an extent with Draigo's Psychic Communion. The Deathcults + Crusaders (whom I shall refer to as the Battle Conclave) are the shock troops that I will put in my Stormraven. You can put Coteaz with the paladins or with the Battle Conclave.


FAST ATTACK - 205-pts

Stormraven - TL-Multi-melta, TL-Assault Cannons

The flyer gives me some more mobility as well as a way to combat other flyers. Use Draigo's Psychic Communion to bring your raven in early.


HEAVY SUPPORT - 405-pts

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - 135
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - 135
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - 135

If you need more scoring units, use Draigo's Grand Strategy to make your dreadnoughts scoring.

Total - 1500

Hey jy2, what are your thoughts on bike/jetbike support for Draigowing? I've been working on a few things at the 1750 level based on your tourney list, and I can't seem to decide if I want to invest more points in a strong bike unit, or divide it up into a bunch of weaker bike units.

The issue I'm having is that the bikes' maneuverability helps a lot more when the bikes actually bring some firepower to the table, but having more bike squads means more tactical flexibility for late-game objective grabs and (with jetbikes) more JSJ shenanigans.

So far I've theorycrafted some lists for Khan/Grav-gun bikes, Farseer w/ Windrunners, and just started looking into Ravenwing support. Still haven't found anything that brings "enough" support, but maybe my idea of "enough" is not reasonable.

 Xca|iber wrote:
So far I've theorycrafted some lists for Khan/Grav-gun bikes, Farseer w/ Windrunners, and just started looking into Ravenwing support. Still haven't found anything that brings "enough" support, but maybe my idea of "enough" is not reasonable.

Just a quick note; Khan only gives Scout when he is the Warlord, so in an allied detachment a Captain is probably better.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Xca|iber wrote:
So far I've theorycrafted some lists for Khan/Grav-gun bikes, Farseer w/ Windrunners, and just started looking into Ravenwing support. Still haven't found anything that brings "enough" support, but maybe my idea of "enough" is not reasonable.

Just a quick note; Khan only gives Scout when he is the Warlord, so in an allied detachment a Captain is probably better.

Interesting, I missed that part. Thanks for the heads up.

 Xca|iber wrote:
Hey jy2, what are your thoughts on bike/jetbike support for Draigowing? I've been working on a few things at the 1750 level based on your tourney list, and I can't seem to decide if I want to invest more points in a strong bike unit, or divide it up into a bunch of weaker bike units.

The issue I'm having is that the bikes' maneuverability helps a lot more when the bikes actually bring some firepower to the table, but having more bike squads means more tactical flexibility for late-game objective grabs and (with jetbikes) more JSJ shenanigans.

So far I've theorycrafted some lists for Khan/Grav-gun bikes, Farseer w/ Windrunners, and just started looking into Ravenwing support. Still haven't found anything that brings "enough" support, but maybe my idea of "enough" is not reasonable.

They're great! Exactly what a Draigowing build needs - mobile scoring. I don't have enough experience with marine bikers yet, but personally, I prefer eldar jetbikes instead. They are much faster with a 48" move that can go over terrain and other units. Moreover, they can shoot and then move afterwards. Also, with Eldar I can take a Wraithknight which then gives me options vs AV14.

Space marine bikers, however, do unlock the very good thunderfire cannons. However, while they are fast, their mobility is hampered somewhat by screening units that can force them to go around instead.

Most importantly, it really boils down to this....do you prefer Space Marine allies or Eldar allies? I think preference in army-style/play-style is what you should go for, not which army has the best units.

As for squad size, I wouldn't make it too big. They are quite susceptible to shooting and heldrakes if you make them too big and/or invest too many points in them. Personally, I'd rather keep my bike squads smallish and hide them, but if you really want them to contribute to your offense, I'd go no bigger than 5-6 bikers in a unit.

Here's what I managed to come up with after a bit of thinking:

HQ:
Coteaz - 100
Draigo - 275
Farseer, Singing Spear, Mantle, Jetbike - 160

Troops:
10x Paladins, 4x Psycannons, Apothecary, Banner, Stave - 750
1x Paladin - 55
5x Windrider Jetbikes, Shuricannon - 95

Fast Attack:
Crimson Hunter Exarch - 180

Heavy Support:
Psyrifleman - 135

I realize it's a bit light on psychic defense and anti-tank, and that the Mantleseer is vulnerable to sniping by S8+ Ignore Cover weapons (Tau, Divination, Melee, etc) but I think I can work around it. Hopefully the Crimson Hunter can make up for one less Psyrifleman, and the AP2 should help against TEQs while the Windriders can plink away MEQs with their "not-rending". (A problem I had with my previous 1750 list).

With 7 units (not including the flyer) I can theoretically hold off everything but the Paladinstar, giving some freedom with my reserve arrangements as well, so I retain as much tactical flexibility as I can without taking 2 squads of jetbikes.

Seizeman wrote:
(no dreadknights) just because how they look.

Check my gallery for a pretty easy fix of the horrendous Dreadknight model so that it looks more ok. It's a more streamlined version of what someone else did and posted on dakka (their name escapes me now). If you want details on the bits and whatnot let me know.

Drop the Exarch for a second Dread at least; a lone Dread is just roadkill and same for a lone Hunter. Use the rest of the points to get another Bike and split into two 3 man units.

I tried that initially, but it left me with 18 points and nowhere to spend them. I am loathe to just throw around useless upgrades, but I also don't want to shortchange myself if I don't have to.

The only thing I could think of was replacing the solodin with henchmen, since my usual opponents are very good at nailing them on arrival, regardless of how I try to hide them.

 Xca|iber wrote:
I tried that initially, but it left me with 18 points and nowhere to spend them. I am loathe to just throw around useless upgrades, but I also don't want to shortchange myself if I don't have to.

The only thing I could think of was replacing the solodin with henchmen, since my usual opponents are very good at nailing them on arrival, regardless of how I try to hide them.

18pts buys a 4th Jetbike for one of the 3 man squads.

Something more like this?

HQ: 
Coteaz - 100 
Draigo - 275 
Farseer, Singing Spear, Mantle, Jetbike - 160 

Troops: 
10x Paladins, 4x Psycannons, Apothecary, Banner, Stave - 750 
1x Paladin - 55
4x Windrider Jetbikes, Shuricannon - 78
3x Windrider Jetbikes, Shuricannon - 61 

Heavy Support: 
Psyrifleman, Searchlight - 135+1
Psyrifleman - 135

Looks better IMO.

Were the rules changed for Hurricane bolters in the latest Space Marines codex?

Was listening to a podcast and someone was referring to them as a salvo weapon or something now.

Thinking about breaking out the stormraven again, considering someone in my gaming group will likely be fielding several vendettas and heldrakes.