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Even if pg 16 tells you that if all models are out of LOS the shots are lost and the shooting attack ends?

Dooley wrote:
How then do you allocate the wounds form the wound pool to models in the wounded unit that are out of LOS?

Via the permission given in the blast rules to wound out of LOS.

Dooley wrote:
Even if pg 16 tells you that if all models are out of LOS the shots are lost and the shooting attack ends?

Yes, because the blast rule under discussion overrides that corollary, and indeed is nothing more than an exception to that rule (and the corollary you're talking about).

EDIT: Seriously, I know my post was long, but if you read the whole thing it answers all your questions. I suspect another poster is going to try to argue that units are not groups of models, but that's incorrect by rulebook definition and the fact that it would ruin many other rules, including, for example, most blessings and maledictions.

The Blast rules tell one to treat them like any other normal shooting attack. It does not allow one to pick and choose which part of the "normal shooting attack" rules to apply or ignore.

Dooley wrote:I am afraid YOUR interprataiton of the rule is the one that is in the wrong here. In your "interpratation" you would have to apply a new set of de facto rules in order to allocate wounds to models/units out of line of site.

You have yet ot show that with any ability.

Dooley wrote:
If a Missile Launcher model fires at a unit and the shot scatters out side of its LOS and Range and hits a separate UNIT as long as a member of the missile launchers squad can see that second UNIT then models may be allocated wounds to them and thus die. If it scatters and NO ONE from the firers unit can see the new UNIT no one dies as NO ONE can have wounds allocated to them by RAW in the BRB..

So, yet again you entirely missed the actual rule. The one that says you can wound units out of LOS. Note that the "out of LOS" isnt caveated - the unit is 100% out of line of sight. Your "example" has a unit where models are IN line of Sight. How can you not understand the difference?

Dooley wrote:You may be able to Hit and wound units out of LOS but unless a member of the firer's squad can see the unit then all wounds will be lost (EXCLUDES BARAGE WEAPONS)

Again I have provided an example of HOW and WHY the rule has a function. Am I NOT explaining this well enough (asked to the ENTIRE community)

No, you have NOT explained anything, as you have yet again entirely misread the rule. Your example is of a unit NOT "out of LOS", but one which is IN LOS. Try to understand there is a difference

Again, under your interpretation the rule has ZERO FUNCTION. Absolutely none.

Dooley wrote:
The Blast rules tell one to treat them like any other normal shooting attack. It does not allow one to pick and choose which part of the "normal shooting attack" rules to apply or ignore.

It tells you exactly which parts of the "normal shooting attack" rules to ignore. One of those is that you can wound units out of sight, which you're claiming you cannot. Another is placing and scattering a template instead of rolling to hit. How far are you going with that?

(And why is it that every single rule that acts like another rule, but with exceptions, has somebody pointing out that it acts like the first rule, as if that magically allows them to ignore the exceptions? Why is that even an argument?)

Question 1) When GW specifies you can "wound the unit" do they mean you generate a Wound Pool, or do they mean you can allocate wounds from the Wound Pool to the unit.

Question 2) Who does the unit need to be out of sight from in regards to the rule? Is it the firing model or the unit as a whole?

Dooley wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I've changed my mind from my original mind changing. If a squad shoots a bunch of bolters and a frag missle at a sqaud of 10 men and only 5 can be seen by the unit then only 5 can be killed. Even if that frag missle hits the other 5 out of sight. That frag missle just tops off the wound pool being used on the models in LoS. If the bolters kill those 5 guys then the extra wounds are disgarded. I don't see why that would be any different for a unit that is completely out of LoS.

YES YES EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!

Also note: many of my CAPS LOCK comments (minus the one above) are for EMPHASIS. I would recomned reading in a calm manner regardles of font size or capitilization of words,

It'd be great if you could address more of my post than just the edit.
If a missile scatters but a bolter guy is the only one that can still see the unit the wound pool isn't emptied.
So again, your interpretation leaves a useless rule.

 Lobukia wrote:
Marines get boned, but they certainly get cover.

If they are on an open area will they even get cover from a blast weapon?

In my aforementioned scenario that would mean you'd have to make two wound pools. One for wounds that hit models in LoS and ones that can hit models out of LoS. I mean are people really playing it that way out there IRL? Who's to say which wounds are even allocated first? I know I'd allocate the LoS ignoring wounds first so can't use their special powers. I just have a tough time believing that's the RAI.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
In my aforementioned scenario that would mean you'd have to make two wound pools. One for wounds that hit models in LoS and ones that can hit models out of LoS. I mean are people really playing it that way out there IRL? Who's to say which wounds are even allocated first? I know I'd allocate the LoS ignoring wounds first so can't use their special powers. I just have a tough time believing that's the RAI.

The wound pool is already split if you have weapons with different strength values, AP values and/or special rules.

Ehh, I have a hard time seeing the distinction between being able to wound units and wound models. Way I see it units are just groups(or singular) models and as such anything that applies to units would also work on models. Otherwise anything that affects the unit no longer works cause they are models.

 Leth wrote:
Ehh, I have a hard time seeing the distinction between being able to wound units and wound models. Way I see it units are just groups(or singular) models and as such anything that applies to units would also work on models. Otherwise anything that affects the unit no longer works cause they are models.

In 6th you cannot directly wound models with shooting.
You roll to hit, then roll to wound. This populates the wound pool. You then allocate wounds from the pool to models, making saves as appropriate.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
In my aforementioned scenario that would mean you'd have to make two wound pools. One for wounds that hit models in LoS and ones that can hit models out of LoS. I mean are people really playing it that way out there IRL? Who's to say which wounds are even allocated first? I know I'd allocate the LoS ignoring wounds first so can't use their special powers. I just have a tough time believing that's the RAI.

The wound pool is already split if you have weapons with different strength values, AP values and/or special rules.

I know but as I asked are people out there really splitting their wound pools into LoS rounds and Non-LoS rounds? Raise hand if you are.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
In my aforementioned scenario that would mean you'd have to make two wound pools. One for wounds that hit models in LoS and ones that can hit models out of LoS. I mean are people really playing it that way out there IRL? Who's to say which wounds are even allocated first? I know I'd allocate the LoS ignoring wounds first so can't use their special powers. I just have a tough time believing that's the RAI.

The wound pool is already split if you have weapons with different strength values, AP values and/or special rules.

I know but as I asked are people out there really splitting their wound pools into LoS rounds and Non-LoS rounds? Raise hand if you are.

No - but you're wrong about how that's handled.

In your scenario, 5 guys behind a wall, 5 guys in the open and the missile scatters behind the wall, hitting 3 models.
We'll assume all 3 missile hits wound and 5 bolter wounds come in.
Wound Pool is now populated.
Opponent rolls 5 saves, fails all 5, remaining wounds are lost.


Using the current rules the fact that you scattered out of LoS means nothing - there's nothing preventing you from rolling to wound models you can't see. You just empty the wound pool if no one in your unit can see anyone in the target unit. The fact that the launcher can't see where the shot landed is irrelevant as long as his buddy can see the unit the shot landed on.

rigeld2 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
In my aforementioned scenario that would mean you'd have to make two wound pools. One for wounds that hit models in LoS and ones that can hit models out of LoS. I mean are people really playing it that way out there IRL? Who's to say which wounds are even allocated first? I know I'd allocate the LoS ignoring wounds first so can't use their special powers. I just have a tough time believing that's the RAI.

The wound pool is already split if you have weapons with different strength values, AP values and/or special rules.

I know but as I asked are people out there really splitting their wound pools into LoS rounds and Non-LoS rounds? Raise hand if you are.

No - but you're wrong about how that's handled.

In your scenario, 5 guys behind a wall, 5 guys in the open and the missile scatters behind the wall, hitting 3 models.
We'll assume all 3 missile hits wound and 5 bolter wounds come in.
Wound Pool is now populated.
Opponent rolls 5 saves, fails all 5, remaining wounds are lost.


Using the current rules the fact that you scattered out of LoS means nothing - there's nothing preventing you from rolling to wound models you can't see. You just empty the wound pool if no one in your unit can see anyone in the target unit. The fact that the launcher can't see where the shot landed is irrelevant as long as his buddy can see the unit the shot landed on.

No, that is how I think it is handled. Some people seem to think those 3 missile launcher wounds would in fact kill the 3 guys out of LoS.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Dooley wrote:
If a Missile Launcher model fires at a unit and the shot scatters out side of its LOS and Range and hits a separate UNIT as long as a member of the missile launchers squad can see that second UNIT then models may be allocated wounds to them and thus die. If it scatters and NO ONE from the firers unit can see the new UNIT no one dies as NO ONE can have wounds allocated to them by RAW in the BRB..

So, yet again you entirely missed the actual rule. The one that says you can wound units out of LOS. Note that the "out of LOS" isnt caveated - the unit is 100% out of line of sight. Your "example" has a unit where models are IN line of Sight. How can you not understand the difference?

Just to play devil's advocate. Perhaps the bit that says you can wound units out of LOS is about generating wounds against the unit. That with make sense as the latter part of the rule talks about allocating the wounds following the rules for a normal shooting attack.

So the whole point of this would be to be able to generate hits and wounds on part of a unit that is out of LOS and then apply (allocate) those wounds to the part of the unit that is in LOS.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Dooley wrote:
If a Missile Launcher model fires at a unit and the shot scatters out side of its LOS and Range and hits a separate UNIT as long as a member of the missile launchers squad can see that second UNIT then models may be allocated wounds to them and thus die. If it scatters and NO ONE from the firers unit can see the new UNIT no one dies as NO ONE can have wounds allocated to them by RAW in the BRB..

So, yet again you entirely missed the actual rule. The one that says you can wound units out of LOS. Note that the "out of LOS" isnt caveated - the unit is 100% out of line of sight. Your "example" has a unit where models are IN line of Sight. How can you not understand the difference?

Just to play devil's advocate. Perhaps the bit that says you can bound units out of LOS is about generating wounds against the unit. That with make sense as the latter part of the rule talks about allocating the wounds following the rules for a normal shooting attack.

So the whole point of this would be to be able to generate hits and wounds on part of a unit that is out of LOS and then apply (allocate) those wounds to the part of the unit that is in LOS.

-Yad

But you can do that without needing the wording in the blast special rule as adding wounds to the wound pool doesn't need LOS, only the allocation part of wounding does.

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Dooley wrote:
If a Missile Launcher model fires at a unit and the shot scatters out side of its LOS and Range and hits a separate UNIT as long as a member of the missile launchers squad can see that second UNIT then models may be allocated wounds to them and thus die. If it scatters and NO ONE from the firers unit can see the new UNIT no one dies as NO ONE can have wounds allocated to them by RAW in the BRB..

So, yet again you entirely missed the actual rule. The one that says you can wound units out of LOS. Note that the "out of LOS" isnt caveated - the unit is 100% out of line of sight. Your "example" has a unit where models are IN line of Sight. How can you not understand the difference?

Just to play devil's advocate. Perhaps the bit that says you can wound units out of LOS is about generating wounds against the unit. That with make sense as the latter part of the rule talks about allocating the wounds following the rules for a normal shooting attack.

So the whole point of this would be to be able to generate hits and wounds on part of a unit that is out of LOS and then apply (allocate) those wounds to the part of the unit that is in LOS.

-Yad

Which you dont need this rule to do. You hit all models under the marker - that does not rely on LOS at all. Only allocating wounds has the caveat on in LOS! only.

AGain - the rule states you can wound *units* out of LOS - an entire Unit *wholly* and *utterly* out of LOS. Your example, like Dooleys, is NOT of a unit entirely out of LOS.

Again - you are reaching an interpretation which renders a rule as entirely redundant and no function. An absurd result like that tells you the interpretation is likely to be wrong

nos, for all we know, the rules are referring to a unit that is out of sight from the firing model, not the firing unit. If that is what the rules are saying (who knows) then the part of allocating wounds as normal makes sense, as for wound allocation, the wounded unit needs to be in sight of the unit that wounded it, not the specific model.

AGain - "out of LOS" has no caveats. So it is oiut of LOS from the firing unit entire

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Dooley wrote:
If a Missile Launcher model fires at a unit and the shot scatters out side of its LOS and Range and hits a separate UNIT as long as a member of the missile launchers squad can see that second UNIT then models may be allocated wounds to them and thus die. If it scatters and NO ONE from the firers unit can see the new UNIT no one dies as NO ONE can have wounds allocated to them by RAW in the BRB..

So, yet again you entirely missed the actual rule. The one that says you can wound units out of LOS. Note that the "out of LOS" isnt caveated - the unit is 100% out of line of sight. Your "example" has a unit where models are IN line of Sight. How can you not understand the difference?

Just to play devil's advocate. Perhaps the bit that says you can wound units out of LOS is about generating wounds against the unit. That with make sense as the latter part of the rule talks about allocating the wounds following the rules for a normal shooting attack.

So the whole point of this would be to be able to generate hits and wounds on part of a unit that is out of LOS and then apply (allocate) those wounds to the part of the unit that is in LOS.

-Yad

Which you dont need this rule to do. You hit all models under the marker - that does not rely on LOS at all. Only allocating wounds has the caveat on in LOS! only.

AGain - the rule states you can wound *units* out of LOS - an entire Unit *wholly* and *utterly* out of LOS. Your example, like Dooleys, is NOT of a unit entirely out of LOS.

Again - you are reaching an interpretation which renders a rule as entirely redundant and no function. An absurd result like that tells you the interpretation is likely to be wrong

I must have misunderstood your earlier post, because I think we're arguing the same position just going about it differently. I do think that if a blast scatters completely out of sight from the firing unit, you are still allow to calculate hits and generate wounds (which go into the wound pool). What you aren't allowed to then do (assuming the 'target' unit is still completely out of LOS) is then allocate those wounds to the unit. The wound pool would be lost. If though there were some models still in LOS to the firing unit you could allocate those wounds to the models in LOS.

If I did misunderstand your earlier post the oops on me If I didn't then I think you're doing it wrong The assumption that you must always be able to hit and wound something when the blast marker lands on it is not necessarily true because of the rule about not being able to wound models that are out of sight.

-Yad

Happyjew wrote:
nos, for all we know, the rules are referring to a unit that is out of sight from the firing model, not the firing unit. If that is what the rules are saying (who knows) then the part of allocating wounds as normal makes sense, as for wound allocation, the wounded unit needs to be in sight of the unit that wounded it, not the specific model.

Except, again, you already have permission to do that.
The firing unit has to have Los to the target unit to allocate.
Models don't need line of sight to allow allocation.

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
nos, for all we know, the rules are referring to a unit that is out of sight from the firing model, not the firing unit. If that is what the rules are saying (who knows) then the part of allocating wounds as normal makes sense, as for wound allocation, the wounded unit needs to be in sight of the unit that wounded it, not the specific model.

Except, again, you already have permission to do that.
The firing unit has to have Los to the target unit to allocate.
Models don't need line of sight to allow allocation.

No, but a model does need LOS to fire his weapon, and generate wound.

Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
nos, for all we know, the rules are referring to a unit that is out of sight from the firing model, not the firing unit. If that is what the rules are saying (who knows) then the part of allocating wounds as normal makes sense, as for wound allocation, the wounded unit needs to be in sight of the unit that wounded it, not the specific model.

Except, again, you already have permission to do that.
The firing unit has to have Los to the target unit to allocate.
Models don't need line of sight to allow allocation.

No, but a model does need LOS to fire his weapon, and generate wound.

A model needs LOS to fire. It does not need LOS to wound. The unit does.

rigeld2 wrote:
A model needs LOS to fire. It does not need LOS to wound.

This baffled me for a bit, since in the situations mentioned, firing comes before wounding.

 kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
A model needs LOS to fire. It does not need LOS to wound.

This baffled me for a bit, since in the situations mentioned, firing comes before wounding.

Indeed and the original target of the non-barrage blast weapon must be in LOS for the shot to be legal. If that shot scatters and hits a target completely out of LOS, however, LOS no longer applies when it comes to hitting and wounding as per the Blast rules. Since the only step of wounding that requires LOS is allocation it is either that you ignore the LOS requirement for wound allocation and allocate closest to furthest or that the entry in the blast special rule concerning wounding is completely useless and a waste of ink.

 kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
A model needs LOS to fire. It does not need LOS to wound.

This baffled me for a bit, since in the situations mentioned, firing comes before wounding.

Absolutely correct.
Missile is fired. Missile scatters out of firing models LOS but hits the target unit. As long as any model in the firing unit can see any model in the now-hit unit, the blast permission to wound doesn't come into play.

That's my point - people are saying that the blast scatter rule is needed for the blast scattering out of LOS of the firing model, but still hits the target unit. That's absolutely incorrect.

....which is the point

The rule that states you can wound ******UNITS****** out of LOS has no purpose, if you assume the "wound" allowance stops before allocation.

Ok lets try this then:
Unit A fires at Unit B
Units A's Missle Launcher scatters out of los of unit A and hits Unit C (completley out of LOS of Unit A)
Wounds are generated and a wound pool is established for Unit C. Allocation of these wounds Cannot happen because NO MODELS in unit C are visible to UNIT A and the shots are lost.

/ End Thought

I have covered "The shot scatters and wounds UNITS out of LOS", I have also covered why it does nothing and how it also does SOMETHING at the same time (Shrodengers Cat Style). Please tell me, with cited rules, HOW you then Alocate wounds to Models in Units of of LOS. Yes the blast rules state you can WOUND UNITS out of LOS however, it still requires you to follow wound allocation as per normal shots.

And I am sorry if YOU (or anyone else) feels like I am being condecending, or attacking anyone or what ever. I am TRYING to explain how and why I am MAKING THE CALL the way I am. I have yet to see HOW non LOS non Barage weapons ACTUALLY wound anyone. Astral Aim is functionally useless at this time as are many other weapons. Again PLEASE send this to the GW people so we can be sure it is included in the latest ERRATA which MAY come out next weekend (here's hopin).

Sigh.

You have just proven that that rule makes absolutely no difference to the game, under your interpretation. You can remove the rule and it makes no difference to the game, at all. You would know this if you had paid attention to Rigelds posts

WHich is why i am pointing out htat, when you come to an interpretaiton that renders a rule meaningless, your interpretation is less likely to be correct.

I have already given my interpretation, many times, why i think it works otherwise.