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You can't compare chimera turret weapons with predator ones, they are likely to be very different sizes in "real life".

cadbren wrote:You can't compare chimera turret weapons with predator ones, they are likely to be very different sizes in "real life".

Nope, Forgeworld has stats with Autocannon Chimera Turrets. It can also have a Heavy Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Twin-linked Heavy Bolter (which from IA1 seems to be the Standard Weapon, neat how fluff changes) and the Trusty Multi-laser.

I believe we can discount the rules to have any credibility when informing us of the capabilities of the space marines. A SM Battle Company in the game comes about to be only about 3000 points, less than what a full Death Corp of Krieg company is worth when translated to the game.

As far as a Space Marine Company actually using Rhinos rather than a chimera. I think a Astartes Rhino would probably be larger than a regular sisters or Arbitor Rhino. As far as their tactical use they can quickly transport a squad and be airlifted. Space Marines also don't need to have that much fire support for their APC. A space marine sitting in a turret of a chimera could be maneuvering with the rest of the squad and easily handling the same weapon systems that are mounted on the turrets of chimeras.

Lastly, when asking why a military unit does or does not adopt a certain doctrine or equipment we must remember that there are other factors involved in their decisions that we do not take into consideration. The Astartes have a very ancient and specific way they fight, that has worked well over the last ten millennium. The space marine method of fighting is based around infantry, supported by Dreadnoughts (really big infantry) and a few tanks that provide mobile fire support. Therefor space marines focus on using vehicles that are solely based on getting troops to the front line. Even if a Rhino is lacking in their ability to provide fire support, it would probably be invaluable in providing logistical support. Bolter Rounds, grenades, batteries for chainswords and fuel for jump packs or flamers are all expended at a breathtaking rate during an advance of the sleepless warriors. Having a vehicle that can resupply a squad during the assault, even if it does nothing else, would be a tremendous force multiplier.

 Ligonatus wrote:
I believe we can discount the rules to have any credibility when informing us of the capabilities of the space marines. A SM Battle Company in the game comes about to be only about 3000 points, less than what a full Death Corp of Krieg company is worth when translated to the game.

I've been using forgeword fluff.

As far as a Space Marine Company actually using Rhinos rather than a chimera. I think a Astartes Rhino would probably be larger than a regular sisters or Arbitor Rhino. As far as their tactical use they can quickly transport a squad and be airlifted. Space Marines also don't need to have that much fire support for their APC. A space marine sitting in a turret of a chimera could be maneuvering with the rest of the squad and easily handling the same weapon systems that are mounted on the turrets of chimeras.

Chimera is larger then the Rhino

Lastly, when asking why a military unit does or does not adopt a certain doctrine or equipment we must remember that there are other factors involved in their decisions that we do not take into consideration. The Astartes have a very ancient and specific way they fight, that has worked well over the last ten millennium. The space marine method of fighting is based around infantry, supported by Dreadnoughts (really big infantry) and a few tanks that provide mobile fire support. Therefor space marines focus on using vehicles that are solely based on getting troops to the front line. Even if a Rhino is lacking in their ability to provide fire support, it would probably be invaluable in providing logistical support. Bolter Rounds, grenades, batteries for chainswords and fuel for jump packs or flamers are all expended at a breathtaking rate during an advance of the sleepless warriors. Having a vehicle that can resupply a squad during the assault, even if it does nothing else, would be a tremendous force multiplier.

Chimera are also mobile depots, which can supply troops. And what is a bigger force multiplication. A weaponless box, or a box that can provide fire support. Answer is: A box that can provide fire support. Go read the Codex: Space Marines Razorback section. A Chimer is pretty much a Razorback with 10 man capacity, and can have the turret weapon of a predator.

Basically its what everyones been saying, its a metal box designed to get marines from point A to point B. Marines are meant to be deployed straight into the thick of the fighting, so tell me would you like to be stuck in a tank in the middle of the red square with only 1 back door hatch to get out of or would you rather have 3 doors where you have a more tacitcal decision of which way you'll get out of? As for fire powers sake a rhino can easily be equiped to face any form of operation, its not capable in the game but you could easily turn the storm bolter into a combi bolter, combi plasma, combi melta, or combi flamer, and for heavier tanks a hunter killer missile can be attached A chimera has bigger guns for sure but only in it's frontal arc, that tank has so many blind spots i wouldn't trust my life in that thing. And for technology wise a rhino can be converted in so many ways, namely the blood angels lucifer engined rhinos, you never hear about chimeras ever going that fast or even having the capability. A chimera cannot repair itself on the battlefield like a rhino, a rhino is more compact and easier to carry than a chimera, namely the transporter thunderhawk capable of carrying 2 rhinos compared to the guards skytalon who can' teven carry a chimera. Personally to me a chimera is a much bigger target than a rhino aswell, the bigger guns make them more of a threat so a ton of more lead will be thrown at it.

In the end wiether i was a guardsman or a space marine i would put my life in the hands of a rhino over a chimera anyday

The whole "Marines only need to get from A to B" argument is effectively killed by the Razorback. If they didn't need an IFV, why do they have one? The Chimera combines the transport capacity and tactical flexiblity of the Rhino with the weapon systems of the Razorback. You may lose out on the self repair, but you do gain the ability to not be stopped by a river.

And if the Skytalon was the size of the Thunderhawk it could carry a few chimeras. A Skytalon is based on the Valkyire, which is roughly the size of the Storm Raven. It is like you don't know the fluff Riddick40k. A Chimera can be equipped with a Turret mounted Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, and Autocannons. Plus it has a hull mounted Heavy Bolter or a HEavy Flamer. Please Explain how that is not superior to the Rhino's Storm Bolter. Did I miss the fluff where the storm bolters are now more powerful then an autocannon? As for the hatch I would trade that in an instant to have a transport that can actually support the attack, rather then be a pop gun armed liability.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
The whole "Marines only need to get from A to B" argument is effectively killed by the Razorback. If they didn't need an IFV, why do they have one? The Chimera combines the transport capacity and tactical flexiblity of the Rhino with the weapon systems of the Razorback. You may lose out on the self repair, but you do gain the ability to not be stopped by a river.

And if the Skytalon was the size of the Thunderhawk it could carry a few chimeras. A Skytalon is based on the Valkyire, which is roughly the size of the Storm Raven. It is like you don't know the fluff Riddick40k. A Chimera can be equipped with a Turret mounted Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, and Autocannons. Plus it has a hull mounted Heavy Bolter or a HEavy Flamer. Please Explain how that is not superior to the Rhino's Storm Bolter. Did I miss the fluff where the storm bolters are now more powerful then an autocannon? As for the hatch I would trade that in an instant to have a transport that can actually support the attack, rather then be a pop gun armed liability.

And to me it seems like no matter what anyone says you'll be dead set on this chimera fantasy of yours. It's not going to happen so why even bother with posting?

No one has managed to convince me the Rhino is better. Ill list the reasons again.
+Better Front Armor
+Better Weaponry
+Better Transport Capacity.
+Amphibious

Rhino
+Better Side Armor
+ Has two side doors (Personally I dont see this as better)
+ Slightly more Durable

So the elite of the Imperium has a need for an IFV. That is why they have the Razorback. With me so far? So they reduce the seats in a Rhino by 40% to make room for a turret. However, all they had to do was slightly modify the Chimera, and have a more effective IFV. It would also make the Autocannon predator redundant due to a Chimera can have an Autocannon and a Heavy Bolter, plus can still transport troops.

So how is this a fantasy Riddick40k? I've listed good solid fluff points to why the Chimera is better, and you've replied with inaccurate information and then when called out on it you refuse to address the points.

With that said the only reason why the Space Marines use it is due to tradition, which for 40k makes alot of sense.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
No one has managed to convince me the Rhino is better. Ill list the reasons again.
+Better Front Armor
+Better Weaponry
+Better Transport Capacity.
+Amphibious

Rhino
+Better Side Armor
+ Has two side doors (Personally I dont see this as better)
+ Slightly more Durable

So the elite of the Imperium has a need for an IFV. That is why they have the Razorback. With me so far? So they reduce the seats in a Rhino by 40% to make room for a turret. However, all they had to do was slightly modify the Chimera, and have a more effective IFV. It would also make the Autocannon predator redundant due to a Chimera can have an Autocannon and a Heavy Bolter, plus can still transport troops.

So how is this a fantasy Riddick40k? I've listed good solid fluff points to why the Chimera is better, and you've replied with inaccurate information and then when called out on it you refuse to address the points.

With that said the only reason why the Space Marines use it is due to tradition, which for 40k makes alot of sense.

So its a fantasy, they won't break tradition and the rhino will always be used over a chimera. nough said

And it only took four pages of debate to get this answer.

I think the real question is why are they using tanks at all in the 41st Millenium, considering their usefulness is being bought into question by the dawn of the 3rd Millenium.

I can finally post this!

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
The whole "Marines only need to get from A to B" argument is effectively killed by the Razorback. If they didn't need an IFV, why do they have one? The Chimera combines the transport capacity and tactical flexiblity of the Rhino with the weapon systems of the Razorback. You may lose out on the self repair, but you do gain the ability to not be stopped by a river.

And if the Skytalon was the size of the Thunderhawk it could carry a few chimeras. A Skytalon is based on the Valkyire, which is roughly the size of the Storm Raven. It is like you don't know the fluff Riddick40k. A Chimera can be equipped with a Turret mounted Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, and Autocannons. Plus it has a hull mounted Heavy Bolter or a HEavy Flamer. Please Explain how that is not superior to the Rhino's Storm Bolter. Did I miss the fluff where the storm bolters are now more powerful then an autocannon? As for the hatch I would trade that in an instant to have a transport that can actually support the attack, rather then be a pop gun armed liability.

I AGree entirley at my FLGS people have stopped taking Rhinos against my Guard army because of that . EAsy kill points , the Chimera is a FAR better platform and people who say otherwise are going looney about it -- a 35 point Rhino no upgrades vs a 55 Point Chimera with a Multilaser , Hull Heavy Bolter - For 20 extra points you get the killing power of an Infantry Section no supplement it this way , with a Rhino you can't be a mobile Bunker ( figurativly ) a Chimera can with its fire ports and top hatch supperiority , But Space Marines use the Rhino for the simple idea of its " What the Emperor used as toilet paper so we must drive it " , Ignorance of better equipment is what i think

Game mechanics aside.
Am I the only one who seems to think that the transport capabilities of the Chimera would be somewhat more limited, if said occupants were 7-8ft tall giants in power armour rather than humans with flak armour? I can quite easily imagine the Chimera having a transport capacity similar to a razorback, given that the RBack turret is largely external compared to the internal chimera turret.

It wouldn't surprise me if the command and control facilities on the rhino were better.

It also wouldn't surprise me if the rhino had specific equipment for maintainence and useage of power armour, data feeds etc.

Of course this is all assumption, but I see the rhino as an advanced piece of kit, instead of a Chimera which has probably been spot welded by a dodgy servitor.

That and half of the space marine tech is based upon the Rhino chassis. Why add in another item to supply for? When adapting an existing rhino to a predator, or vice versa is an option.

What do the FW books give us for the speeds of the vehicles?

Also just because marines have a razorback available, does not mean that it suddenly becomes essential over the rhino. So just because the marines have it does not dispel the notion that the chimera is better and more essential.

None of the fancy extras on the chimera will help you if it breaks.A rhino is much less likely to do that (more rugged, much better machine spirit) and it's even capable of repairing itself in the field. If a chimera breaks down, it's a mission-kill, but that matters a lot less when there are a hundred more behind it; like guardsmen, IG vehicles are mass-produced and largely expendable.

Since space marines operate in smaller numbers and often engage in more critical tasks, the rhino's reliability trumps the chimera's extra toys. Space marines have to be able to depend on every single piece of wargear they're taking to the field, and the rhino is the most reliable transport in the imperium.

If you could manufacture a chimera with the rhino's more advanced systems, I'm sure they'd use those, but you can't, because they're STC designs and nobody really understands how to make them anymore besides putting templates into constructors.

OP - your cons pretty much some up why not plus they can be used in multiable battle environs including under water. Suck that Imperial Guard

I believe the Rhino is more preferred by Space Marines because they're an elite strikeforce that often deploys directly from orbit or within the stratosphere of the planet itself. Rhino's and Razorbacks are designed for short term use; hence the self-repair and bigger engine (since carrying Space Marines has got to be heavy work). Depending on the surface area of both vehicles, I'd imagine the Rhino being easier to store and maintain on a Battle Barge than a Chimera.

While Chimeras are built for round trips for armies that are stuck planetbound and have to answer threats at a distance. Adding to that are extra parts in the vehicle in case the vehicle becomes comprimised, medical and ammunition boxes, food supplies, and the ammunition closets for the turreted weapon. It probably has a smaller engine which allows it to traverse farther.

I think Space Marines don't use Chimeras because they just don't need it. Why replace something that you already have? Just look at their Drop Pods, Thunder Hawks, and Land Raiders; they need vehicles to disembark their troops, not cower in them like an armored bunker.

If it aint broke (in thousands of years) don't fix it. Plus it took ages for Space Marines to grudgingly accept the Razorback becuase compared to the Rhino it had not proved it's worth on countless battle fields and over time.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
OP - your cons pretty much some up why not plus they can be used in multiable battle environs including under water. Suck that Imperial Guard

Your confusing the Land Raiders ability to go under water with the Rhino. The entry on the Chimera makes it quite clear that it can easily go in dense forests, swamps, and cross rivers with ease. And this is terrain that an enemy commander thought would protect his flank, only to find guardsman pouring out of the Chimeras, in to the heart of the enemy. So the Imperial Guard has the mobility. So in your words "SUCK IT SPESS MAHREENS!"

Chimera are also outfitted with advanced Comms and auspex networks and make excellent command vehicles. Again this is fluff, not me making stuff up.

As for the size of the Space Marine, in Studio publications they are 7ft tall and somewhat stockier then a human. Which would probably allow 10 marines to ride in back. Then one marine can drive, and a servitor can man the guns.

The rhino is more rugged true, but not by much. The Chimera is also quite rugged and durable, but has greater mobility, especially in wet terrain.

So to summarize the thread, the Marines use a decent APC, that is considered Elite and prestigious, only due to tradition.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
OP - your cons pretty much some up why not plus they can be used in multiable battle environs including under water. Suck that Imperial Guard

Your confusing the Land Raiders ability to go under water with the Rhino. The entry on the Chimera makes it quite clear that it can easily go in dense forests, swamps, and cross rivers with ease. And this is terrain that an enemy commander thought would protect his flank, only to find guardsman pouring out of the Chimeras, in to the heart of the enemy. So the Imperial Guard has the mobility. So in your words "SUCK IT SPESS MAHREENS!"

Chimera are also outfitted with advanced Comms and auspex networks and make excellent command vehicles. Again this is fluff, not me making stuff up.

As for the size of the Space Marine, in Studio publications they are 7ft tall and somewhat stockier then a human. Which would probably allow 10 marines to ride in back. Then one marine can drive, and a servitor can man the guns.

The rhino is more rugged true, but not by much. The Chimera is also quite rugged and durable, but has greater mobility, especially in wet terrain.

So to summarize the thread, the Marines use a decent APC, that is considered Elite and prestigious, only due to tradition.

The chimera can go through woods and swamps, but no more or less effectively than anyother tracked vehicle. Dense woodland is dense woodland and restricts all equally since last I checked the chimera is neither a skimmer or Ethreal.
It does have the advantage of been Amphibious however, yet if your having to cross large bodies of water you have to ask just what are the marines doing.

As for chimera command vehivcles, the capability to stick an enhanced comms network for guard use, does not mean its compatable or even remotely useful for Marines who probably equally sophisticated systems in their helmets. If the chimera was advanced as your making out, then vehicles such as slamander command vehicles would be redundant.

In some publications marines are 8 or 9ft tall, stockier and encased in armour, no doubt restricted by thr turret operations on the interior. They are taller, stockier and with bulkier equipment. I'd put money on the rhino being compatable with the armour.

Also no it is not confusing the rhinos capabilities re under water. The rhino has electric motors and combustion enginesn if 1 is damaged a reduction in speed but they remaain operational. The combustion engine has o2 cylinders and the Rhino can close exhaust vents and still has O2 needed to run in a vacuum. So if it can run in a vacuum it can run underwater... Tell me the chimera can do that.

The chimera is a crude box. It fails to meet marines standards in that its useless in airless environments, hostile envronments, its good for deploying groundpounders where they need to be and backing them up with a bit of fire power.

The Rhino specialisies in ensuring its Cargo is deployed in any environment and circumstance. And should they need sone heavy fire support, there's razorbacks, land speeders, whirlwinds, and Devastators who just lined up a shot after deploying in a Rhino.

Eats humble pie lol. Well the Rhino trumps the Chimera any day, can the Chimera repair it's self maybe take brutal damage but come out victorious or has a machine spirit that can revenge it's dead crew huh huh! lol. Yea Space Marine trump Guard any day of the week but hey lets forget our differences we're warrior brothers on the same team, just keep that Chimera gak away from me eh lol.

 Eetion wrote:

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
OP - your cons pretty much some up why not plus they can be used in multiable battle environs including under water. Suck that Imperial Guard

Your confusing the Land Raiders ability to go under water with the Rhino. The entry on the Chimera makes it quite clear that it can easily go in dense forests, swamps, and cross rivers with ease. And this is terrain that an enemy commander thought would protect his flank, only to find guardsman pouring out of the Chimeras, in to the heart of the enemy. So the Imperial Guard has the mobility. So in your words "SUCK IT SPESS MAHREENS!"

Chimera are also outfitted with advanced Comms and auspex networks and make excellent command vehicles. Again this is fluff, not me making stuff up.

As for the size of the Space Marine, in Studio publications they are 7ft tall and somewhat stockier then a human. Which would probably allow 10 marines to ride in back. Then one marine can drive, and a servitor can man the guns.

The rhino is more rugged true, but not by much. The Chimera is also quite rugged and durable, but has greater mobility, especially in wet terrain.

So to summarize the thread, the Marines use a decent APC, that is considered Elite and prestigious, only due to tradition.

The chimera can go through woods and swamps, but no more or less effectively than anyother tracked vehicle. Dense woodland is dense woodland and restricts all equally since last I checked the chimera is neither a skimmer or Ethreal.
It does have the advantage of been Amphibious however, yet if your having to cross large bodies of water you have to ask just what are the marines doing.

As for chimera command vehivcles, the capability to stick an enhanced comms network for guard use, does not mean its compatable or even remotely useful for Marines who probably equally sophisticated systems in their helmets. If the chimera was advanced as your making out, then vehicles such as slamander command vehicles would be redundant.

In some publications marines are 8 or 9ft tall, stockier and encased in armour, no doubt restricted by thr turret operations on the interior. They are taller, stockier and with bulkier equipment. I'd put money on the rhino being compatable with the armour.

Also no it is not confusing the rhinos capabilities re under water. The rhino has electric motors and combustion enginesn if 1 is damaged a reduction in speed but they remaain operational. The combustion engine has o2 cylinders and the Rhino can close exhaust vents and still has O2 needed to run in a vacuum. So if it can run in a vacuum it can run underwater... Tell me the chimera can do that.

The chimera is a crude box. It fails to meet marines standards in that its useless in airless environments, hostile envronments, its good for deploying groundpounders where they need to be and backing them up with a bit of fire power.

The Rhino specialisies in ensuring its Cargo is deployed in any environment and circumstance. And should they need sone heavy fire support, there's razorbacks, land speeders, whirlwinds, and Devastators who just lined up a shot after deploying in a Rhino.

\

Please list fluff with the advanced AI, ability to fight under water. And if your going to dismiss the advanced comms in a chimera due to space marines have helmets, then I can dismiss the air tightness due to space marines have helmets, however please list the fluff for this claim. The Chimera is a rugged vehicle that works in the most HOSTILE of environments. Environments so hostile the enemy commander thought they where impenetrable and would protect their flanks. And the Chimera is capable of going through this environment and taking the flight to the enemy.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Eats humble pie lol. Well the Rhino trumps the Chimera any day, can the Chimera repair it's self maybe take brutal damage but come out victorious or has a machine spirit that can revenge it's dead crew huh huh! lol. Yea Space Marine trump Guard any day of the week but hey lets forget our differences we're warrior brothers on the same team, just keep that Chimera gak away from me eh lol.

The IoM would collapse in a week if there was no IG, stop being a space marine fanboy, seeing as again your talking about the Land Raider. And if your happy with an inferior APC when you could have a superior IFV then thats fine by me.

Yea me more than happy to have a Rhino. With no Space Marines the IoM wouldn't see out the day. Who says they have no machine spirit?

Considering that 99+% of the battles the IoM fights is fought by the Imperial Navy and Guard, I highly doubt that. Your fanboyism is getting the best of you. As studio fluff puts that a Space Marine is equal to 10 guardsmen, 1000 SM in a Chapter around 1000 chapters gives them a rough number of 1,000,000. Multiply that by 10, you got the equivalent of 10,000,000 Guardsmen. That isn't even the daily recruitment rate of the Imperial Guard. As for the Machine Spirit, all machines have them, from a water pump to a lasgun to an Emperor class Battleship. No fluff give the Rhino the abilities you keep describing,

Lexi to the rescue - yes they can do all I said, if they can fight in a vacum they can fight in water, they can do rudementry self repairs, and the machine spirit is more like a A.I. like a las carbine or a water pump...please, pull the other one it's got bells on.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Considering that 99+% of the battles the IoM fights is fought by the Imperial Navy and Guard, I highly doubt that. Your fanboyism is getting the best of you. As studio fluff puts that a Space Marine is equal to 10 guardsmen, 1000 SM in a Chapter around 1000 chapters gives them a rough number of 1,000,000. Multiply that by 10, you got the equivalent of 10,000,000 Guardsmen. That isn't even the daily recruitment rate of the Imperial Guard. As for the Machine Spirit, all machines have them, from a water pump to a lasgun to an Emperor class Battleship. No fluff give the Rhino the abilities you keep describing,

The thing is, while this makes sense it's said time and time again in official fluff that without the Adeptus Astartes the Imperium is doomed. So it's a bit of illogical canon, but still canon.

I think it would be boring if the Space Marines used chimeras. That's all that you would ever see on the board...

I always thought that rhinos were made out of some super alloy that wasn't really represented in the rules, but was assumed to take a licking better than the Chimera, or any guard vehicle. I could be wrong though.

The Rhino is modular too. A turret and sponsons can be mounted, as well as a variety of pintle mounted weapons, dozer blades, Vindicator weapons, rockets... basically everything in the armories. I take that as a sign that it has a powerful engine, and a simple integration system for new weapons.

Well the reason is uppose that is that they are a force Multiplier.

Without marines, behemouth wouldn't have been destroyed.
Armaggeddon would have fallen 3 times.
X number of Black Crusades successful.

And so on.

They turn the tide of crucial conflicts.

Will also reference my last post tommorrow.

ObliviousBlueCaboose - so I was right on BOTH counts then, why were you trying to prove me wrong when I was right and a quick cheek on lexi proved that. Dont let that Guardfanboyism go to your head and get the better of you now eh, now eat your humble pie and no custard for you.

MarsNZ wrote:
I think the real question is why are they using tanks at all in the 41st Millenium, considering their usefulness is being bought into question by the dawn of the 3rd Millenium.

Their usefulness is only doubted when there is no opposing armored force, and in the case of urban warfare.

In the case of fighting another major world power, tanks are still immensly useful.


Air power is very VERY expensive, particularly these super accurate missiles people rave about. The cost is going to be prohibitive in any armed conflict. To thepoint where the bulk of the work will still be done by boots on the ground and 30 ton armored vehicles.