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There would still only be war, just sayin

And Deathstrikes and Exterminatus

The way things are going now, the Imperium looks doomed. Without the Emperor, the astronomican's light will be extinguished. However with so many variables involved such as Cypher's strange mission, the missing Primarchs and the possible discovery of a working STC unit , in the future anything can happen.

Orks will still exist, as they are very numerous, and Chaos will always find new humans to corrupt even if their armies are destroyed. Eldar are very spread out, and Dark Eldar live in the infinite expanse of Commorragh and thus near impossible to truly wipe out. In my opinion, Tau could be destroyed if their ever was a large enough attack on their Empire. Can't speak for Tyrannids or Necrons however

 Anfauglir wrote:

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

Secondly, things are slowly changing- things that could destroy major factions. The Emperor is dying, the Tyranids are arriving, the Necrons are awakening ...

... and the Tau are expanding. These things are all happening simultaneously, meaning the Imperium aren't in the position to focus enough attention onto any one of the other factions to destroy them, and vice versa, and they never will be. Things can slowly change all they want - that's one thing that isn't going to change. Ever.

So...

Probably any one of those could spell doom for the Tau.

... it's moot to single out any one faction. Yes, that means the Tau, too.

Personally, I think their only real hope is to pull their narrow-minded, xenophobic heads into line and ally with the Tau and Eldar, at least giving them the chance to actually slow - or even reverse - their collective decay. But, that would mean ending the free-for-all stalemate, so it's not happening.

1) My original point was that the Tau are expanding because everyone else is ignoring them. When a faction has close-on absolute power, they'll finally see the point in killing the Tau.
2) When GW says the Tau are expanding quickly, that means they could conquer the galaxy in 5000 years, at the earliest. At that point, the Emperor will be either the Star Child or dead, and the Necrons and Tyranids will be increasing in number exponentially.
3) At a certain point- long before they come anywhere near total domination- the Tau will be just as deadlocked as everyone else.

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

1) My original point was that the Tau are expanding because everyone else is ignoring them. When a faction has close-on absolute power, they'll finally see the point in killing the Tau.

And my original point was that no faction will ever achieve "close-on absolute power", and that in the amount of time it would take for anything like that to happen (longer than 2000 years, in my opinion), the Tau have just as much chance as anyone else, if not more so, because the only event that will ever shift their priority as a threat... is an increase in their strength/galactic position. Meaning? Your original point is moot - and around around the merry-go-round we go.

2) When GW says the Tau are expanding quickly, that means they could conquer the galaxy in 5000 years, at the earliest. At that point, the Emperor will be either the Star Child or dead, and the Necrons and Tyranids will be increasing in number exponentially.

No, it doesn't. It means that they are expanding quickly in simultaneity with the decay of the Imperium, the arrival of the 'Nids and the awakening of the Necrons. Which means...

3) At a certain point- long before they come anywhere near total domination- the Tau will be just as deadlocked as everyone else.

... that this deadlock is already in effect, as I have been explaining from the get-go.

I think the tau empire would absorb most the other alien empires in the east ether stirring more conflict with the imerium or striking a treaty with them one more likely then the other. But more then likely they would have more human worlds under there sway and things would be worse between the two empires but that assuming the nids haven't eaten them or possibly every one by then.

The senario of 42K some friends and i came up with is kinda a grim look full of war. Sow i rite down the key points.

Tau : expanding to fast, and got their frontlines got weakend.
And a kroot rebelion kinda sealed the deal and crippled the Tau Advance.

Orks : Well most clans are wiped out by expancions of the other races. But the surving clans work more al muscle for hire. Risky to hire them, but i guess fighting is something orks are born for.

Chaos : Stayed the same only they hire now the Orks for there dirty work. The main strategy avoid total war till they are ready for it.

Eldar & Dark Eldar : Got hammerd back by Tau, IOM and the Tyranids. and are there for only defending there last planets ore key point locations. And avoiding any kind of contact with the other races.

Tyranids : Where nearly wipped out. They left the know universe. Proberly to regain there strengt and come back with new forms ore transformations. Who knows?

The IOM : After the Emperor dead, a huge cival war broke out. But the humans united under 3 major parties. Who dispide there difrend views are allied.
- The Shadow Empire. They still believe in the return of there God Emperor and waiting faithfully for that moment.
- The republic of mankind, Sick and fed up with the old ways they form a nation with democracy.
- The Neo Empire, United under a newly crowned Ruler. They are more ore less they look the same as the old IOM.
Only Kinder towards the Troops and a better comman structure.

Necrons. Since no1 playes with them whe know ....
Sow alive but keeping a low profile .

And yes this based on the board games my friend's and i played and real live events like some quiting the game (Tyranids& Orks) and disagreements bout stuf (IOM & Tau) .

I would say the races will survive by adepting to the many challenges they face.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

1) My original point was that the Tau are expanding because everyone else is ignoring them. When a faction has close-on absolute power, they'll finally see the point in killing the Tau.

And my original point was that no faction will ever achieve "close-on absolute power", and that in the amount of time it would take for anything like that to happen (longer than 2000 years, in my opinion), the Tau have just as much chance as anyone else, if not more so, because the only event that will ever shift their priority as a threat... is an increase in their strength/galactic position. Meaning? Your original point is moot - and around around the merry-go-round we go.

2) When GW says the Tau are expanding quickly, that means they could conquer the galaxy in 5000 years, at the earliest. At that point, the Emperor will be either the Star Child or dead, and the Necrons and Tyranids will be increasing in number exponentially.

No, it doesn't. It means that they are expanding quickly in simultaneity with the decay of the Imperium, the arrival of the 'Nids and the awakening of the Necrons. Which means...

3) At a certain point- long before they come anywhere near total domination- the Tau will be just as deadlocked as everyone else.

... that this deadlock is already in effect, as I have been explaining from the get-go.

1) As I said, the Tyranids and Necrons are coming close to coming out on top. Either one will annihilate the Tau any century now...
2) The other logical extent of that fact is that the deadlock won't last forever.
3) No amount of Tau expansion will save them from getting wiped out by the 'Nids or the 'Crons anyways.

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

1) As I said, the Tyranids and Necrons are coming close to coming out on top. Either one will annihilate the Tau any century now...

No, they're not. Too many other things going on in the galaxy. No one faction will ever be in a strong enough position to fully and finally wipe out any other faction - let alone all the other factions. You seem to be fixated on seeing GW's setting as being illogically biased towards those two factions in a way that I find truly puzzling...

2) The other logical extent of that fact is that the deadlock won't last forever.

Yes, it will. If it doesn't then it stops working as the setting for GW's futuristic warhamming hobby. Simple. As. That.

3) No amount of Tau expansion will save them from getting wiped out by the 'Nids or the 'Crons anyways.

Seeing as it already has; yes, it will. Tau are a playable army and therefore a major galactic faction. No one's getting "wiped out" short of a massive re-write and retcon of the setting, OR a seriously substantial progression in the timeline. I wouldn't hold your breath for either (anytime soon, at the very least, anyway). They have already survived the most precarious baby steps of establishing themselves. If anyone was going to wipe them out, it would have been the Orks, or the Eldar, or Hive Fleet Behemoth way back when they were dipping their naive little toes out into the big bad galaxy. Did that happen? Nope, they weathered each and every threat put in front of them and have grown stronger regardless. By the the time most of the rest of the galaxy even knew they were there, they were already more than powerful enough to cope with any measure of extermination that could be spared and sent their way. If the Tyranids and Necrons are so all-powerful and the Tau so weak as you claim, then what you say as being oh so evidently just peeping over the horizon... will have already happened.

So, in summary, there is nothing about that situation that is going to change. Ever. The Tau's relationship to the galaxy is one of positive correlation, it's as simple as that. Unending stalemate for all involved. I really don't know how many times and in how many different ways I can explain it to you: unending, as in, forever. Fin. End.

It's possible that within 2,000 years that the Astronomicon or the Emperor would be extinguished or die off, this would leave the vastness of the IOM of man to fall in on itself outside factions would be able to move invisibly within the eye of imperium and all semblence of responses and welfare is governed by Astropaths sending S.O.S's to various traditional sources. Even then, warp travel to these locations being attacked by the enemies of the Imperium would quickly become near impossible without the beacon effect of the Emperor/Astronomicon.

It would eventually be deemed that sectors and systems with active Adeptus Astartes and stations IG would no longer pick up and go in search of the enemy for too high of a likelihood of becoming lost within the warp or worse...This would eventually create small splinter groups which focused on personal defense until the primarchs would return presumably one of them would then be gifted enough to take the throne of their father re-uniting the Imperium of man after purging chaos from the riddled corpse of the once ponderous and glorious territory that was once the IOM. Due to this survivalist approach every race down to even the tau would see it as too opportune of a time NOT to move in and capture unprepared planets which would be unable to call for back-up. My guess is only factions like the Black Templar and Grey knights would still brave the warp regardless of the Astronomicon's condition.

This urge to expand empires or take what was needed would be to incredible in-fighting which primarily would be ORKish waaagh's vs any competitors nids included, because when fighting enemies who don't see it coming almost always creates an instant waaagh as is. Orks would act un-wittingly to the aid of the Imperium in a way defending it from any long term control by bleeding all enemies and challengers and though perhaps not in sectors but in most any army able to thrwart an orkish waaagh is then subjected to no reasources capable of maintaining it for any period before a new challenger wishes to claim it instead.

The Necron would try to be the last to act in regards to getting involved thus to be the strongest presence when needed but giving orks or nids a proper battle will always make them too strong for the cron to handle.

The Eldar would more than likely seek contraband or artifacts claimed by the IOM in desperate search for ways to weaken all sides (including the necron) due to this turn of events.

Dark eldar would have very few worlds to attack that were not already on high-alert this wouldn't bode well for them and their surprise attack and piracy groups would find themselves struggling to ever get involved in skirmishes or slaves without seeing less returns on their investments.

Tau due to the Waaagh of Dakka the tau are desperate to change the flow of the war due to losing significant ground to orkish advances. New worlds not teeming with orks is the best way to accomplish that and draw out the long distance fire-fighting they need to quell the hordes. In other words fight a small war to win the largest one needed which is jumping planet to planet and and causing massive ork casualties in space combat until overwhelmed and them a ground war.

Nids would try and advance on all fronts but with so many players on the board it wouldn't take much for other races to agree to remove the menace as a joint operation since it's better to split spoils (or backstab) and remove the threat almost assured to take it form you either way.

Chaos would be at it's highest point of strength without the inquisition to keep it in check or enforce the laws of the IOM soon worlds would crumble to demons and the infulences of the CSM due to their non-reliance on the Astronomicon. when one world might fall and exterminatus would be declared for the health of the sector to continue no longer would these things be relayed and swiftly entire sectors would fall due to the fate of single planets that might go unchecked. Obviously other races would be involved in fighting this threat but Chaos has the unquie advantage of attacked from all fronts similarly to the Orks. So in my eyes since teamwork and prejudice are the only weapons effective against chaos in the last stages... i think the imperium would become infested in no time.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

1) As I said, the Tyranids and Necrons are coming close to coming out on top. Either one will annihilate the Tau any century now...

No, they're not. Too many other things going on in the galaxy. No one faction will ever be in a strong enough position to fully and finally wipe out any other faction - let alone all the other factions. You seem to be fixated on seeing GW's setting as being illogically biased towards those two factions in a way that I find truly puzzling...

2) The other logical extent of that fact is that the deadlock won't last forever.

Yes, it will. If it doesn't then it stops working as the setting for GW's futuristic warhamming hobby. Simple. As. That.

3) No amount of Tau expansion will save them from getting wiped out by the 'Nids or the 'Crons anyways.

Seeing as it already has; yes, it will. Tau are a playable army and therefore a major galactic faction. No one's getting "wiped out" short of a massive re-write and retcon of the setting, OR a seriously substantial progression in the timeline. I wouldn't hold your breath for either (anytime soon, at the very least, anyway). They have already survived the most precarious baby steps of establishing themselves. If anyone was going to wipe them out, it would have been the Orks, or the Eldar, or Hive Fleet Behemoth way back when they were dipping their naive little toes out into the big bad galaxy. Did that happen? Nope, they weathered each and every threat put in front of them and have grown stronger regardless. By the the time most of the rest of the galaxy even knew they were there, they were already more than powerful enough to cope with any measure of extermination that could be spared and sent their way. If the Tyranids and Necrons are so all-powerful and the Tau so weak as you claim, then what you say as being oh so evidently just peeping over the horizon... will have already happened.

So, in summary, there is nothing about that situation that is going to change. Ever. The Tau's relationship to the galaxy is one of positive correlation, it's as simple as that. Unending stalemate for all involved. I really don't know how many times and in how many different ways I can explain it to you: unending, as in, forever. Fin. End.

1) Tyranids and Necrons are coming close to coming out on top. Only a tiny fraction of those factions has awakened/arrived yet, and they're already major threats.
2) If you're going to keep throwing in the "GW/BL writing style" point, then this argument is gonna go on forever, because I do not acknowledge the relevance of that point. GW is gonna keep us in M41 anyways, so if we deem that argument relevant, nothing anyone else has posted on this thread has any meaning whatsoever.

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

1) Tyranids and Necrons are coming close to coming out on top. Only a tiny fraction of those factions has awakened/arrived yet, and they're already major threats.
2) If you're going to keep throwing in the "GW/BL writing style" point, then this argument is gonna go on forever, because I do not acknowledge the relevance of that point. GW is gonna keep us in M41 anyways, so if we deem that argument relevant, nothing anyone else has posted on this thread has any meaning whatsoever.

Indeed, the Necrons have a slumbering mega-tech empire. It's not certain how well it will have survived the aeons, but it could be monstrously powerful. The Imperium is powerful because of its size. A Necron empire of similar size would be overpowering.

The Tyranid fleets that have arrived thus far are now officially confirmed as the merest fraction of the oncoming swarm, and what's here already has pressed the Imperium hard.

Either of these two forces is clearly more than capable of cleansing the entire galaxy of all life. Even if they go into all out war with one another, is that really going to be any better for the bystanders? Being caught in the crossfire won't be pleasant.

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

1) Tyranids and Necrons are coming close to coming out on top. Only a tiny fraction of those factions has awakened/arrived yet, and they're already major threats.
2) If you're going to keep throwing in the "GW/BL writing style" point, then this argument is gonna go on forever, because I do not acknowledge the relevance of that point. GW is gonna keep us in M41 anyways, so if we deem that argument relevant, nothing anyone else has posted on this thread has any meaning whatsoever.

1) And as long as they keep popping up piecemeal, they will be fought and resisted by the rest of the galaxy, like they always have and always will be. You can repeat your biased conjecture as many times as you like; it won't come any closer to being anything other than just that; biased conjecture. 40K as a game system will not work if there's only room for two factions to have any chance of being the ultimate victors.

Let me throw some of my own out there, to help demonstrate.

- Orks are coming close to coming out on top. Only a tiny fraction of their numbers have achieved a cohesive waaagh!, and they still waste time fighting in small bands among themselves, both within the Milky Way and without - and they're already a major threat. In a century or two, many, many more will arrive and a super strong-willed leader will emerge and unit enough of them to finally waaagh! across the entire galaxy, sweeping away all others as before a great green tide. Ahhhh haahahahaha hah ha ha ha ha

See? That was easy.

2) I find it more than telling that in order for your point to have any chance of standing, you're having to transform the 40K setting into something it's not.

Doombread is right because Necrons and Tyranids can just "re-spawn" so that makes your Ork idea useless.
In addition your basing your argument on games workshop not ending it but this is a fluff topic so the is no Matt ward controlling everything
and deciding the fate of the universe. SO to you Doombread good job and i agree, Necrons will win

 Anfauglir wrote:

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

1) Tyranids and Necrons are coming close to coming out on top. Only a tiny fraction of those factions has awakened/arrived yet, and they're already major threats.
2) If you're going to keep throwing in the "GW/BL writing style" point, then this argument is gonna go on forever, because I do not acknowledge the relevance of that point. GW is gonna keep us in M41 anyways, so if we deem that argument relevant, nothing anyone else has posted on this thread has any meaning whatsoever.

1) And as long as they keep popping up piecemeal, they will be fought and resisted by the rest of the galaxy, like they always have and always will be. You can repeat your biased conjecture as many times as you like; it won't come any closer to being anything other than just that; biased conjecture. 40K as a game system will not work if there's only room for two factions to have any chance of being the ultimate victors.

Let me throw some of my own out there, to help demonstrate.

- Orks are coming close to coming out on top. Only a tiny fraction of their numbers have achieved a cohesive waaagh!, and they still waste time fighting in small bands among themselves, both within the Milky Way and without - and they're already a major threat. In a century or two, many, many more will arrive and a super strong-willed leader will emerge and unit enough of them to finally waaagh! across the entire galaxy, sweeping away all others as before a great green tide. Ahhhh haahahahaha hah ha ha ha ha

See? That was easy.

2) I find it more than telling that in order for your point to have any chance of standing, you're having to transform the 40K setting into something it's not.

1) Necrons and Tyranids aren't popping up piecemeal, exactly- they are rapidly growing in number.
2) We're all turning the 40k setting into something it's not on this thread. It's about a time period that, if we acknowledge the validity of your points, does not even exist in the 40k world.
3) Your Ork victory idea doesn't work because Orks are not coming in from other galaxies as far as we know, and they are not united, nor do they have any hope of becoming united.

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

3) Your Ork victory idea doesn't work because Orks are not coming in from other galaxies as far as we know, and they are not united, nor do they have any hope of becoming united.

Wrong, the Ork empire was in existence before the Eldar fall they have traveled much further than the galaxy. Since the inception of the Imperium of man a single drone has been moving in one direction away from the imperium giving them an idea of how far alien races may lie. for 30,000 years it has been traveling and every few days it continues to send blips of information to the Imperium and nearly every bit of it is still; to their horror orks.

that is taken directly out of our last 2 codexes. Orks do operate on "the bigger the stakes, the bigger the bigger the challenge" this means necrons or nids can't wipe life... period without running into a stalemate of orks. It might work for awhile but once enough orks learn to respect the power of Nids or Cron BOOM you're done taking over the galaxy. Once the orks respect you they want your stuff and to kill you to show they can it isn't defensive at that point it's aggressive. And nothing galvanizes orks more than shows of strength. it is why tremendous effort is needed on any front to beat orks the most anyone can do is really displace them and hope they regroup elsewhere. When the catchphrase of 40k is "in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is only war." this is a tribute to the struggle the "imperium" or in truth ANY empire faces, topple one giant and others will rise during your strength. Battles may be won but no side is ever removed from the fight.

Orks are the equivalent of fighting the rain, it won't do anything to their morale or numbers they will constantly pour down and eventually slow you down or even halt your advance. Actually strong waaaghs will turn into turning the tides, but if you expect to just go planet to planet exploding everything and going unchecked as nids, chaos, cron or orks you are sadly mistaken just because 2,000 years pass doesn't mean the galaxy will not be wracked by war and these "infamous super tyrants" will still be enemy #1 the moment they appear. You are story devises of an antagonist that Orks might say

"oy! Humies, tell ya wut you give us sum of dem tanks and we might be willing ta fight dem buggies fer ya if ya throw in dat factory of yours too."

Which they would replied "Absolutely not greenskin it would be agai-"

The ork would cut him off "Oh, I see 'ow you wants it den fine, fine but don't come crying when your soft lads are chewed up and they take ur fort anywayz"

the commissar "... perhaps we should strike terms then..."

"aye lets! First fing i want is one of dem loud tanks of yours!..."

Then the tyranid find a joint alliance of mercenary freebooterz helping the defenses of a ravaged imperial guard regiment. it's just how it goes you are the dark lord Sauron and you lose once the galaxy sets aside it's differences for a minor time to face the enemy please see the example of the blood angels and necron allying against the nids. In 2,000 years perhaps the eldar are erradicated or the tau are snuffed out or something to fit fluff of a small empire being swallowed but no one power is going be reigning supreme anytime in the next 40,000 years either...

I actually think that iff all the Tyranids turned up, even the IoM would consider allying with all of the races in the Galaxy to exterminate the Nids. I can imagine it working because:

-IoM has the space/vehicular combat superpower (Emp Class warship/titan & Battle Barges) and can remove entire planets from the equation in on go. and bodies. lots of bodies
-Eldar/DE have enough psykers/fighters respectivley to defend a section of Galaxy on thier own
-Necrons have the technology to shatter The Outsider (assuming the The Outsider is the HM for the purposes of this post.) and have some of the best defenses in the galaxy. Also World Engines.
-Tau have enough vehicles/battlesuits (aka mobile firepower) to make H&R attacks all over the galaxy
-Orks can keep the Nids in a stalemate meat grinder almost indefinately, buying time for larger weapons to be brought to bear.

If allied, these pros would be more than enough to kill off most if not all of the Nids

 necronuser wrote:
Doombread is right because Necrons and Tyranids can just "re-spawn" so that makes your Ork idea useless.

First of all, no. Orks beat any other faction in numbers. Period.

Lexicanum wrote:the Orkoid race is also the most successful species in the whole galaxy, spread throughout the galaxy and outnumbering possibly every other race. However, due to this aggressive and warlike nature, the massive race is split into hundreds of tiny empires, warring as much between themselves as against other races. In the purely theoretical event all the Orks were to unite, they would undoubtedly crush all opposition.

And;

Lexicanum wrote:Adult Orks are constantly releasing spores which lie in the ground, often for years, waiting to develop into Orks or Gretchin. Thus a world invaded by Orks will be troubled by them for hundreds of years to come, even if the original assault is beaten off.

Therefore your "re-spawn" point is invalid, as Orks have always, and will always have, a way to regenerate and increase their numbers in a far superior way to that of Necrons;

Lexicanum wrote:All of their numbers possess sophisticated auto-repair systems throughout their exo-skeletal systems that can repair even the most crippling of damages. While this can keep them functioning constantly, should there be irreparable damage sustained, the Necron "phases out". Both their minds and their bodies are teleported to the nearest tomb complex where they either remain in storage until repairs are made or a new body is forged. This act does, however, come at a cost as each act of transferrence leads to a decay in the Necron's engrams. As such, those Necrons that have "died" and phased out hundreds of times suffer the most for they become little more than automatons who have lost the memory of the creature that they used to be in life.

Ergo: Necrons have a shelf life. There are a finite number of them and are always in decline. Orks (or more specifically their spores) don't have one. Their number is potentially infinite, unending, and forever growing/strengthening.

However, having said all that - you are in fact correct in one regard, and that's how my Ork example stands in relation to my original and ongoing argument in the topic - it's "useless", as you said. That's why I put it there in order to illustrate the futility of arguing one faction will eventually dominate all the others. It's moot to say "yeah, well, the Orks are actually the most powerful and can take over the galaxy... (and here's the important part) if only they all stopped farting around and joined together!" Yes, it's useless - because that's never going to happen. They're fighting too many enemies on too many different fronts. Galaxy-wide unending stalement between all factions... All. Factions.

In addition your basing your argument on games workshop not ending it but this is a fluff topic so the is no Matt ward controlling everything
and deciding the fate of the universe. SO to you Doombread good job and i agree, Necrons will win

So, you're argument is that the "fluff" isn't one and the same as GW's overarching setting for a game system (controlled as you say by Matt Ward)... but is instead a different universe with, well, Necron fans controlling everything, I suppose...

Yeah... sorry, but no. Yes, this is a fluff topic. The fluff is the unending stalemate set forth by GW. End of story. I'm basing my argument on what the fluff is, and will continue to be... not what my personal fandom or bias hopes it will become. To speculate and fantasise in a theoretical topic is one thing, but to start stating conjecture as undeniable fact in regards to some of the setting's more unmovable constructs, is another entirely.

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

1) Necrons and Tyranids aren't popping up piecemeal.

Yes, they are. Read up on Tyranid Hive Fleets and the Tyrannic Wars. Next, take a look at this;

Lexicanum wrote:For sixty million years the Necrons remained in their deathless slumber in their tombs in what became known as the Great Sleep. As time passed, many Tomb Worlds fell prey to malfunction or ill-fortune. Some were destroyed by marauding Eldar. These failures destroyed millions, if not billions of dormant Necrons. But when the Tomb Worlds did begin to rewaken, it was not simultaneously. Some awoke to see the Great Crusade, others during the Age of Apostasy. Most however awoke during the later years of M41, but even still billions of Necrons lay dormant.

You know, for such an evident Tyranid and Necron enthusiast discussing fluff... you seem to have some pretty substantial gaps in your knowledge of the fluff itself... strange

3) Your Ork victory idea doesn't work because Orks are not coming in from other galaxies as far as we know, and they are not united, nor do they have any hope of becoming united.

First: incorrect. Orks are known to exist beyond the boundaries of the Milky Way. Furthermore, I'm playing by your rules in my example, where I can twist and mould the fundamentals of the setting to fit my bias. Therefore I can proclaim just as much as you can about who is coming out on top - and I say that there are trillions upon trillions of Orks just over the horizon, inbound for the galaxy, and when they get here, there's a uber-mega-big-boss who will unite all the Orks together and it's over for everybody else. See? See how easy that was? Get it yet?

And just in case it's still unclear - second; correct. I know my victory idea doesn't work, I know that they are not united and never will be. That was the whole point, I was highlighting how moot it is claim one faction will have ultimate superiority provided element X is in place, when the very nature, the very essence of the setting is to deny element X from ever being in place. It's yourself who seems to be unable to grast that most simplest of concepts, and so this merry-go-round continues to spin in happy, ignorant bliss...

 Anfauglir wrote:


First of all, no. Orks beat any other faction in numbers. Period.

Oh I don't know, the Tyranid section in the new rulebook kind of implies that the Tyranids may well outnumber everything else combined. It's not even contradictory to existing fluff either; Orks are described as the most populus race in the galaxy and the Tyranids aren't technically in the galaxy yet (not in great numbers, anyway), so both statements can be true.

Anyway, all this talk of size and numbers is being conducted without thought for the logistics of fighting a galactic war. Even if the Orks somehow managed to pool together, how on earth are they going to manage a galactic war? The Imperium can't do it properly, and the Eldar/Necrons were only any good at it because of extremely fast communication and travel. To the best of my knowledge, there is no Ork webway and Ork travel is mostly fairly haphazard.

Don't get me wrong, the Orks are a fearsome foe and probably the hardest of the indigenous races to exterminate (no-one has been able to do it so far, not the C'tan, not the Necrons, not the Enslavers, not the Eldar, not the humans), but I don't put much stock in them ever actually winning. Of all the races, they are most likely to survive the Necron/Tyranid apocalypse though, and isn't being around tomorrow for another good fight really what winning is to an Ork?

 Anfauglir wrote:

 necronuser wrote:
Doombread is right because Necrons and Tyranids can just "re-spawn" so that makes your Ork idea useless.

First of all, no. Orks beat any other faction in numbers. Period.

Lexicanum wrote:the Orkoid race is also the most successful species in the whole galaxy, spread throughout the galaxy and outnumbering possibly every other race. However, due to this aggressive and warlike nature, the massive race is split into hundreds of tiny empires, warring as much between themselves as against other races. In the purely theoretical event all the Orks were to unite, they would undoubtedly crush all opposition.

And;

Lexicanum wrote:Adult Orks are constantly releasing spores which lie in the ground, often for years, waiting to develop into Orks or Gretchin. Thus a world invaded by Orks will be troubled by them for hundreds of years to come, even if the original assault is beaten off.

Therefore your "re-spawn" point is invalid, as Orks have always, and will always have, a way to regenerate and increase their numbers in a far superior way to that of Necrons;

Lexicanum wrote:All of their numbers possess sophisticated auto-repair systems throughout their exo-skeletal systems that can repair even the most crippling of damages. While this can keep them functioning constantly, should there be irreparable damage sustained, the Necron "phases out". Both their minds and their bodies are teleported to the nearest tomb complex where they either remain in storage until repairs are made or a new body is forged. This act does, however, come at a cost as each act of transferrence leads to a decay in the Necron's engrams. As such, those Necrons that have "died" and phased out hundreds of times suffer the most for they become little more than automatons who have lost the memory of the creature that they used to be in life.

Ergo: Necrons have a shelf life. There are a finite number of them and are always in decline. Orks (or more specifically their spores) don't have one. Their number is potentially infinite, unending, and forever growing/strengthening.

However, having said all that - you are in fact correct in one regard, and that's how my Ork example stands in relation to my original and ongoing argument in the topic - it's "useless", as you said. That's why I put it there in order to illustrate the futility of arguing one faction will eventually dominate all the others. It's moot to say "yeah, well, the Orks are actually the most powerful and can take over the galaxy... (and here's the important part) if only they all stopped farting around and joined together!" Yes, it's useless - because that's never going to happen. They're fighting too many enemies on too many different fronts. Galaxy-wide unending stalement between all factions... All. Factions.

In addition your basing your argument on games workshop not ending it but this is a fluff topic so the is no Matt ward controlling everything
and deciding the fate of the universe. SO to you Doombread good job and i agree, Necrons will win

So, you're argument is that the "fluff" isn't one and the same as GW's overarching setting for a game system (controlled as you say by Matt Ward)... but is instead a different universe with, well, Necron fans controlling everything, I suppose...

Yeah... sorry, but no. Yes, this is a fluff topic. The fluff is the unending stalemate set forth by GW. End of story. I'm basing my argument on what the fluff is, and will continue to be... not what my personal fandom or bias hopes it will become. To speculate and fantasise in a theoretical topic is one thing, but to start stating conjecture as undeniable fact in regards to some of the setting's more unmovable constructs, is another entirely.

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

1) Necrons and Tyranids aren't popping up piecemeal.

Yes, they are. Read up on Tyranid Hive Fleets and the Tyrannic Wars. Next, take a look at this;

Lexicanum wrote:For sixty million years the Necrons remained in their deathless slumber in their tombs in what became known as the Great Sleep. As time passed, many Tomb Worlds fell prey to malfunction or ill-fortune. Some were destroyed by marauding Eldar. These failures destroyed millions, if not billions of dormant Necrons. But when the Tomb Worlds did begin to rewaken, it was not simultaneously. Some awoke to see the Great Crusade, others during the Age of Apostasy. Most however awoke during the later years of M41, but even still billions of Necrons lay dormant.

You know, for such an evident Tyranid and Necron enthusiast discussing fluff... you seem to have some pretty substantial gaps in your knowledge of the fluff itself... strange

3) Your Ork victory idea doesn't work because Orks are not coming in from other galaxies as far as we know, and they are not united, nor do they have any hope of becoming united.

First: incorrect. Orks are known to exist beyond the boundaries of the Milky Way. Furthermore, I'm playing by your rules in my example, where I can twist and mould the fundamentals of the setting to fit my bias. Therefore I can proclaim just as much as you can about who is coming out on top - and I say that there are trillions upon trillions of Orks just over the horizon, inbound for the galaxy, and when they get here, there's a uber-mega-big-boss who will unite all the Orks together and it's over for everybody else. See? See how easy that was? Get it yet?

And just in case it's still unclear - second; correct. I know my victory idea doesn't work, I know that they are not united and never will be. That was the whole point, I was highlighting how moot it is claim one faction will have ultimate superiority provided element X is in place, when the very nature, the very essence of the setting is to deny element X from ever being in place. It's yourself who seems to be unable to grast that most simplest of concepts, and so this merry-go-round continues to spin in happy, ignorant bliss...

Whether the Necrons are popping up piecemeal is irrelevant- They are still growing in number, and can eventually overpower most, if not all, other factions. Also, I am not a Tyranid or Necron enthusiast. I just think those factions will eventually wipe out all others. And, though your Ork ideas are irrelevant, as I have stated ad nauseam, you are failing to disprove my Necron and Tyranid ideas. Plus, your statement of Necron numbers being always in decline is just plain wrong. In addition, my point about the 43rd millenium being immune to the fluff writing style point remains solid. And, your element X never being in place idea is irrelevant, as official fluff has declared that my X elements are in place. Also, really? ad hominem attacks?

The tau improve there technology even more and bring new races into there empire and as they will be pritty much unhindered by chaos as there just a blip on the warp become the most powerful faction by systematically destroying or absorbing other factions into there fold.The Orks numbers continue to increase steadily and expand the systems they control and conquer armagedon and with the amount of industry they have access two become even more unstoppable

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

Whether the Necrons are popping up piecemeal is irrelevant- They are still growing in number,

Oh, okay, so now it's irrelevant... after several posts of trying to argue otherwise. Oooookay. (Nice goal post shifting ) Where do you get their "growth" from, pray tell? As far as I'm aware, they are an old race confined to robotic bodies buried deep on a bunch of scattered tomb worlds. There aren't no Necro-trees about, you know? There're not ripening next to the cabbage-patch babies. They're all already here. Their former numbers, glory and empire a broken, scattered shell of what it was, their current number being reduced in functionality with each and every conflict.

and can eventually overpower most, if not all, other factions. Also, I am not a Tyranid or Necron enthusiast. I just think those factions will eventually wipe out all others.

Nope. Sorry It's stalemate all around, I'm afraid.

And, though your Ork ideas are irrelevant, as I have stated ad nauseam,

I think this is the second time, but go on...

you are failing to disprove my Necron and Tyranid ideas.

That's mostly because A) your recent addition of the goal post shifting to your arsenal and B) your simple inability to accept the difference between biased conjecture and established facts. Like the following;

Plus, your statement of Necron numbers being always in decline is just plain wrong.

Not only am I correct, but I had the good grace to provide you with the piece of fluff that flat out proves my point - yet you still deny to accept it (or, shift goal posts, as indicated). Face it, the Necron empire and their galactic position/influence is a shadow of what it once was. What remains of their number has awoken scattered and piecemeal across a galaxy now overrun with races that are more than capable of facing their threat, and will continue to resist them as they always have done. They are deadlocked in stalemate, just like everybody else.

In addition, my point about the 43rd millenium being immune to the fluff writing style point remains solid.

Only as solid as my observation that in order for your argument to have any legs, you're having to transform the very fundamentals of what the setting is currently (and always has been) about.

And, your element X never being in place idea is irrelevant, as official fluff has declared that my X elements are in place.

*sigh* I see, more of the "your fanfluff is irrelevant and wrong - my fanfluff is right, so there!" style arguments. These are becoming as tedious as they are childish. Please, prey tell where, exactly, in official fluff does it state that either 'Nids or 'Crons are more powerful than all other factions, and - important part - will therefore eventually come out on top (bonus point if you can find one outside of the obligatory "dis army is da bestest army, if you play dis army, you will bash all other armies" statement that is included in each factions codex - good luck ). Please. Go on. I'll wait.

Also, really? ad hominem attacks?

Um, really? Where?

Doombread, I must say your arguments are pretty thin compared to the ideas brought forth by your opposition. I am all for loving your various factions. My original army was necrons, before they even had a codex. I am still a fan of the older edition fluff but sadly the Necron are a bastardized version of thecno mummies now in my eyes. They don't just have the ability to build endlessly that would just make them tools. While the Necron are more or less only interested in tools of conquest this doesn't mean they "Simply build" they still are somewhat sentient otherwise they would simply be the Men of Iron Fluff offered in previous 40k fluff within the Imperium. My next army was orks, and i loved the ways they are made. in my personal opinion even comparing it to the Nids the orks just have been rooted in 40k in such a way... not nothing is mean to conquer them. They are defeatable but never an enslaved race or one fleeing from gods of chaos.

The Nids are honestly generic to me, stale and almost cliche for a sci-fi series. I love em the models and fluff are staples to the universe but they do not strike the sheer terror so many seem to doom say about all the time. i am not sure if this is a predisposition of Evil armies but they just MUST FEEL THEY ARE THE END OF US ALL. Look, I can really like that idea but it just wouldn't happen. Fluff incorporated or not the best we would see in a 2,000 year gap is perhaps the removal of certain factions and the emergence of others. the 40k universe is about war that never ends it rages on all sides in every area, unremitting and terrible wars that last decades just to see a shift in supply lines!

I think your theory is flawed in the fact that universal evils are dealt with and then the universe continues old business it is the basic formula of the game and story. they shall have victories but they aren't remember for those, they are remembered for their defeats. Same with the orks, same with the nids, and with Cron. No one faction will eradicate all other factions even though that is the dream...I honestly think you will be happier not arguing such trival matter but your time is your own to spend as you wish. I will just enjoy my orks and play the story in my head the way it should unfold with orks organizing the Universe's fanciest tea party!!!!

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
The Nids are honestly generic to me, stale and almost cliche for a sci-fi series. I love em the models and fluff are staples to the universe but they do not strike the sheer terror so many seem to doom say about all the time

Can you point to something in 40k, or indeed any setting, that isn't "cliche", "generic" or at the very least resembles something someone else has done first?

You guys are so silly.

Orks would get their asses kicked by the Tyranids and Necrons. They're the idiot punching bags of the Galaxy, with Tyranids coming in second place for that title. Orks never win any significant battles. Ever.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 DOOMBREAD wrote:

Whether the Necrons are popping up piecemeal is irrelevant- They are still growing in number,

Oh, okay, so now it's irrelevant... after several posts of trying to argue otherwise. Oooookay. (Nice goal post shifting ) Where do you get their "growth" from, pray tell? As far as I'm aware, they are an old race confined to robotic bodies buried deep on a bunch of scattered tomb worlds. There aren't no Necro-trees about, you know? There're not ripening next to the cabbage-patch babies. They're all already here. Their former numbers, glory and empire a broken, scattered shell of what it was, their current number being reduced in functionality with each and every conflict.

and can eventually overpower most, if not all, other factions. Also, I am not a Tyranid or Necron enthusiast. I just think those factions will eventually wipe out all others.

Nope. Sorry It's stalemate all around, I'm afraid.

And, though your Ork ideas are irrelevant, as I have stated ad nauseam,

I think this is the second time, but go on...

you are failing to disprove my Necron and Tyranid ideas.

That's mostly because A) your recent addition of the goal post shifting to your arsenal and B) your simple inability to accept the difference between biased conjecture and established facts. Like the following;

Plus, your statement of Necron numbers being always in decline is just plain wrong.

Not only am I correct, but I had the good grace to provide you with the piece of fluff that flat out proves my point - yet you still deny to accept it (or, shift goal posts, as indicated). Face it, the Necron empire and their galactic position/influence is a shadow of what it once was. What remains of their number has awoken scattered and piecemeal across a galaxy now overrun with races that are more than capable of facing their threat, and will continue to resist them as they always have done. They are deadlocked in stalemate, just like everybody else.

In addition, my point about the 43rd millenium being immune to the fluff writing style point remains solid.

Only as solid as my observation that in order for your argument to have any legs, you're having to transform the very fundamentals of what the setting is currently (and always has been) about.

And, your element X never being in place idea is irrelevant, as official fluff has declared that my X elements are in place.

*sigh* I see, more of the "your fanfluff is irrelevant and wrong - my fanfluff is right, so there!" style arguments. These are becoming as tedious as they are childish. Please, prey tell where, exactly, in official fluff does it state that either 'Nids or 'Crons are more powerful than all other factions, and - important part - will therefore eventually come out on top (bonus point if you can find one outside of the obligatory "dis army is da bestest army, if you play dis army, you will bash all other armies" statement that is included in each factions codex - good luck ). Please. Go on. I'll wait.

Also, really? ad hominem attacks?

Um, really? Where?

1. I believe I can answer most of your attacks with a dash of Quotehammer:

6th ed. Rulebook wrote: Victory against this unforgiving and unstoppable force (The Necrons) will require the lesser races to stand united, and time for them to do so is swiftly running out. With every world the Necrons reconquer, the ancient empire comes ever closer to rebirth.

There it is. Official fluff confirming my points.
2. I was post-shifting because I hadn't understood what you meant by popping up piecemeal.
3. You said that I was unable to grasp the simplest of concepts, and that I was spinning around on a merry-go-round of ignorance. You kinda may as well have said "I am right because I'm better than you."

KingGhidorah wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
The Nids are honestly generic to me, stale and almost cliche for a sci-fi series. I love em the models and fluff are staples to the universe but they do not strike the sheer terror so many seem to doom say about all the time

Can you point to something in 40k, or indeed any setting, that isn't "cliche", "generic" or at the very least resembles something someone else has done first?

Not sure why i honestly have to, as it is simply an opinion that the nids resemble alien + godzilla and require no references as i am well aware that all intellectual material has been repeated in the various sci-fi and story writing. the point here isn't to insult it's to just stating that they seem to harken to that too much for my personal liking.

BlaxicanX wrote:You guys are so silly.

Orks would get their asses kicked by the Tyranids and Necrons. They're the idiot punching bags of the Galaxy, with Tyranids coming in second place for that title. Orks never win any significant battles. Ever.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111025080641/warhammer40k/images/thumb/a/a9/WAAAGH%21Garaghak.jpg/300px-WAAAGH%21Garaghak.jpg

This is a demonstration of how Waaagh's work please feel free to read.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Ork_Waaaghs!#.UFjhSVGD-uI

This list represents either ongoing or victorious in various sectors. Vital battles such as the one for armageddon, Ryza and ultramar hang in the mercy of orkish war lusts. If it were not for other enemies to please us or a joint operation of resistance these curical areas of ammunition, warp proximity or one strongest fort of the adeptus astartes. To say we never win significant victories I would challenge you to read the Waaagh of Dakka, or Waaagh Tuska or any of the references on this site. You think we don't win cruical battles but I think you should realize the orks are the most unremitting and brutal of the enemies of the IOM we may not be the most devastating to the imperium but we are the most constant struggle and even after 10,000 years of standing against the orks the Imperium is lucky to hold it's own worlds in most sectors from orkish waaaghs. Whoever thinks they shall be the undoing of the IOM shall inherit it's problems namely us.



1. I believe I can answer most of your attacks with a dash of Quotehammer:

Victory against this unforgiving and unstoppable force (The Necrons) will require the lesser races to stand united, and time for them to do so is swiftly running out. With every world the Necrons reconquer, the ancient empire comes ever closer to rebirth.

DOOMBREAD wrote:
1. I believe I can answer most of your attacks with a dash of Quotehammer:

6th ed. Rulebook wrote: Victory against this unforgiving and unstoppable force (The Necrons) will require the lesser races to stand united, and time for them to do so is swiftly running out. With every world the Necrons reconquer, the ancient empire comes ever closer to rebirth.

There it is. Official fluff confirming my points.

Aww, sorry man, missed out on that all important bonus point that was on offer. I'm afraid that is a faction-specific piece of fluff written in the Necron section of the rulebook, and therefore falls under the "dis army is da bestest army, if you play dis army you will bash all ova armies" category, where you will find similar entries for each of the other factions, therefore invalidating it. So sorry.

2. I was post-shifting because I hadn't understood what you meant by popping up piecemeal.

Really? I didn't think there were any other way for it to be understood. Oh well, fair enough I suppose. At least you're now more informed about the Necron fluff.

3. You said that I was unable to grasp the simplest of concepts, and that I was spinning around on a merry-go-round of ignorance. You kinda may as well have said "I am right because I'm better than you."

Yes, I said that it "seems that you are unable to grasp this most simplest of concepts". A perfectly valid and appropriate evaluation of your contribution to this discussion. You have tried to assert things which aren't true, which I have shot down, against which your only answer is to regurgitate the same "no I'm right and your wrong" response. This has continued for many posts, leading to my merry-go-round analogy - again, a perfectly valid, accurate assessment because your refusal to back down when you've been proven wrong is a characteristically ignorant behaviour, as is not knowing some basics in the fluff about which you are debating. Conclusion? My statements are born of observation applied to message board etiquette only. I have not sought to attack your own person (I have neither the knowledge nor the desire to do so), and, more importantly in the context of an ad hominem, I have not sought to do so as a way to attack your argument. That I have managed just fine using the conventional manner.

You are too tense.

To make you laugh a little, here's some advice from a noob : Me.


Tyranids :
Continue their advance. I honestly don't see them "evolving" (more than adaptation with always the same pieces, like lego). And the seem to laked so many essentials elements when they arrived i wonder if even norn-queen are not an "adaptation" in our galaxy. Myself, i see the "grande armée" of tyranids like more or less a giant mass of not-so organized proteins, a cloud of plancton-like things, maybe.
In 2000 years, they have time, probably, to attack the galaxy from more or less all fronts, consuming more worlds.

Necrons :
More of them awake, waging intra-necronic wars ravaging entire sectors and harvesting other races like, say, we actually do on our XXI century Earth.
I don't see them exterminating all life already because, as i said, they have a bigger threat to combat : Themselves.

Dark Eldars :
Do theses guy ever change ? Are general attacks from Tyranids and Necrons enough to make them help others races because, you know, they need victims if they want to survive the appetite of their glutton god (Slaneesh ?).

Eldars :
Will panic, probably. Necrons and Tyranids devouring their exodites and maiden worlds and attacking their worldcrafts more and more is not good news for them. And they probably can't quit Milky Way (if they can, why they and their Dark cousins have not already done it ? Particularly the Darks, by the way).

Orks :
Massive invasion from Tyranids probably create bigger and bigger Waaaaghs, with bigger orks (maybe their own idea of Space Marines ?).
At 2000 years from "there", the grim future will probably be green.

Tau :
Mmh... A race evolving it's technology particularly fast fighting for it's survival against too galaxy-wide menaces wanting to annihilate them ?
Okay, who think they will put Star Trek and Star War to shame in 2000 years ?
If they have not been devoured, that's it (who now) ?

Imperium :
The Imperium look static, for me.
But if the galaxy is set aflame, i can see a lot of sector building their independant empire, with probably a lot of them restarting technological progress, maybe even opening friendly relations with xenos neighbors : In 2000 years, without Imperial administration to kill "traitors" around, you have the time to learn to like the guys who fight at your side against rampaging Orks, Tyranids and whatnot.

Others ?

Well, i read somewhere the "new cannon" is the imperial systems are far from each other, with the warps as railroads. Meaning can exist a lot of things between these systems, maybe entire and relatively powerful space empires (The most logical size for the Federation from Star Trek is 250 L.Y. - Forgot the 2500 theory : It's stupid).

With the gigantic turmoil and galactic panic created by the Necrons, the Tyranid, then the Orks, i can see a lot of these unknown civilization trying to contact each others, and be helped in that by Eldars trying to create as much of armed empire as they can (putting themselves as benevolent godlike helpers, of course, and it will not be totally wrong in fact).

 Anfauglir wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:
1. I believe I can answer most of your attacks with a dash of Quotehammer:

6th ed. Rulebook wrote: Victory against this unforgiving and unstoppable force (The Necrons) will require the lesser races to stand united, and time for them to do so is swiftly running out. With every world the Necrons reconquer, the ancient empire comes ever closer to rebirth.

There it is. Official fluff confirming my points.

Aww, sorry man, missed out on that all important bonus point that was on offer. I'm afraid that is a faction-specific piece of fluff written in the Necron section of the rulebook, and therefore falls under the "dis army is da bestest army, if you play dis army you will bash all ova armies" category, where you will find similar entries for each of the other factions, therefore invalidating it. So sorry.

2. I was post-shifting because I hadn't understood what you meant by popping up piecemeal.

Really? I didn't think there were any other way for it to be understood. Oh well, fair enough I suppose. At least you're now more informed about the Necron fluff.

3. You said that I was unable to grasp the simplest of concepts, and that I was spinning around on a merry-go-round of ignorance. You kinda may as well have said "I am right because I'm better than you."

Yes, I said that it "seems that you are unable to grasp this most simplest of concepts". A perfectly valid and appropriate evaluation of your contribution to this discussion. You have tried to assert things which aren't true, which I have shot down, against which your only answer is to regurgitate the same "no I'm right and your wrong" response. This has continued for many posts, leading to my merry-go-round analogy - again, a perfectly valid, accurate assessment because your refusal to back down when you've been proven wrong is a characteristically ignorant behaviour, as is not knowing some basics in the fluff about which you are debating. Conclusion? My statements are born of observation applied to message board etiquette only. I have not sought to attack your own person (I have neither the knowledge nor the desire to do so), and, more importantly in the context of an ad hominem, I have not sought to do so as a way to attack your argument. That I have managed just fine using the conventional manner.

1. Everything in the passages for individual factions is, in fact, official canon. You won't find anything contradicting canon in the army entries.
2. Let's say two people are debating, and one person says "I'm right because I'm smarter than you." The other person accuses him of the use of ad hominem attacks. He responds "But I am smarter than you."
That's what you just did.
Also, just because I don't agree with your points doesn't mean I can't understand them.