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Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer



UK, Midlands

I will say though, without hesitation, that army is the most OP army I have ever seen in this game in any edition.



I think people need to calm down a little now.

This is a very effective spam list to be sure, but like all spam lists is has its counters.

Infantry horde (orks, foot guard, nids) should be able to shrug off this lists shooting and any alpha strike army that gets first turn (Drop pods, IG Leafblower, DEldar, Deamons) could table this list early.

I would rather face this list than jy2`s wraith/flyer list.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/21 12:12:46


 
   
Made in fi
Dakka Veteran




Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I will say though, without hesitation, that army is the most OP army I have ever seen in this game in any edition.


I think people need to calm down a little now.
This is a very effective spam list to be sure, but like all spam lists is has its counters.
Infantry horde (orks, foot guard, nids) should be able to shrug off this lists shooting and any alpha strike army that gets first turn (Drop pods, IG Leafblower, DEldar, Deamons) could table this list early.
I would rather face this list than jy2`s wraith/flyer list.

That list gives out horrendous amounts of shooting. No list can just "shrug off" that amount of firepower. Pure horde list might have enough troops left at the end of the game to win objectives, that much I give. But you can't use such list in tournament, there's no way you could play the game in allotted time-slot.

As for tabling that army on first turn, you're forgetting the existence of LOS-blocking terrain and Everliving. Assuming no terrain and infinite fire-power, you've only got 45% chance of killing the 2 Overlords/Destroyer Lords because of EL, and if the opponent is willing to pay 60 points, that chance drops to 25%. Or he can switch the second overlord for royal court + Orb, and now your chances of tabling him is max 12.5% and its further halved for each 25 points your opponent is willing to spend to secure his victory.

So no, alpha strike shooting will not win this list, unless you're 1) really lucky 2) playing on a table without any LOS blocking terrain. Alpha Strike list combined with Vanguard veterans that you use to attack from reserves might work.

I do agree that pure flyer spam is probably not as good as some hybrid list, but until new codexes arrive with Skyfire and Interceptor units, Necrons in 6e will be far, far OP than GK ever were in 5e.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I will say though, without hesitation, that army is the most OP army I have ever seen in this game in any edition.



I think people need to calm down a little now.

This is a very effective spam list to be sure, but like all spam lists is has its counters.

Infantry horde (orks, foot guard, nids) should be able to shrug off this lists shooting and any alpha strike army that gets first turn (Drop pods, IG Leafblower, DEldar, Deamons) could table this list early.

I would rather face this list than jy2`s wraith/flyer list.


That is not me knee-jerking or being hyperbolic at all, that is my honest assessment. Can it be beaten? Yes, of course. But most lists won't and more importantly, it will be a terribly unenjoyable game.

Until we get more AA, flyers will dominate.

Every tournament we've been to so far has been won by Flyer based lists and won by a large margin.

   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer



UK, Midlands

@Reecius;

I think you misunderstand me here, flyer based lists are going to do very well I just dont think this is the best example. It seems to spammy to me which means it can get caught out in some match ups.

Luide wrote:


That list gives out horrendous amounts of shooting. No list can just "shrug off" that amount of firepower. Pure horde list might have enough troops left at the end of the game to win objectives, that much I give. But you can't use such list in tournament, there's no way you could play the game in allotted time-slot.

As for tabling that army on first turn, you're forgetting the existence of LOS-blocking terrain and Everliving. Assuming no terrain and infinite fire-power, you've only got 45% chance of killing the 2 Overlords/Destroyer Lords because of EL, and if the opponent is willing to pay 60 points, that chance drops to 25%. Or he can switch the second overlord for royal court + Orb, and now your chances of tabling him is max 12.5% and its further halved for each 25 points your opponent is willing to spend to secure his victory.

So no, alpha strike shooting will not win this list, unless you're 1) really lucky 2) playing on a table without any LOS blocking terrain. Alpha Strike list combined with Vanguard veterans that you use to attack from reserves might work.

I do agree that pure flyer spam is probably not as good as some hybrid list, but until new codexes arrive with Skyfire and Interceptor units, Necrons in 6e will be far, far OP than GK ever were in 5e.


"Shrug off" may have been too strong but having tried to eliminate massed guardsmen/orks with tesla destructors I think they can take it.

Im not forgetting that terrain exists LOL, the lists I mentioned are mostly very mobile or use a lot of barrage weapons. The risk of getting tabled comes in games when your opponent gets first turn so they have 2 turns to table your starting army. The biggest problem will be deep striking assault armies (or any deepstrike army that can beat crons in assault) who can land first turn then assault 2nd turn to get sweeping advances/spread out to prevent EL rolls.


The list is nasty but could be better if it was less spammy IMO. As you say, flyer heavy hybrid lists will probably work best.


Edit: Random point; Is running out of time any worse for a horde player than their opponent? 180 orks can make it to objectives in 2-3 turns and would be hard to shift in the same amount of time.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/22 15:58:11


 
   
Made in no
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Oslo Norway

Once you allow FW, quite a lot of armies can compete with the flying circus:
Contemptor Mortis Dreads (space marines, black templars and dark angels) is the best ground-based AA available. Bs5, interceptor, skyfire with lots of weapon options. They are expensive, but armed right, they will take down one airplane before it does anything..
Hyperios platforms (all marine variants)
Sabre platforms (ig)
Flakk guns (orks)
More planes (ig, all marines, eldar, tau, chaos)

With a few mortis dreads and some hyperios platforms, you can expect to shoot down 3+ planes each time they enter the board, THAT will frustrate the necron player to no end. Add some of the tips below to this and you should win.

I've played against 6 flyer list at 1750 quite a lot. IMO, the all-out flyer spam list is weaker than the necron list with serious ground forces. The lists I've played against is 18 wraiths, destroyer lord + 6 planes or GK allies + 6 planes. What I have learned:
1: Officer of the fleet is amazing value against airplanes. I outright won a game when I managed to roll up -1 to enemy reserve rolls as well, meaning that my necron opponent had to roll 5's to get his planes in before turn 4. I crushed his unsupported ground forces while he frustratedly waited for air support.
2: Bring interceptor guns. Nothing is more frustrating than having the most important plane shot down before it does anything. I've been on the recieving end of this as well, and it sucks. Interceptor + skyfire is amazing! Icarus lascannon is better than quad IMO, higher S and AP makes it a more reliable killer. Quad bounces to easily.
3: Bring dogfighters. I bring 2x vendetta, which is probably the number 3 dogfighter out there. Other (codex) dogfighters include: stormraven, storm talon, razorwing, voidraven, dakkajet and of course doom/night scythe.
4: Aegis line is great value to lessen the damage the planes can do to your ground forces.
5: Anything but Ap1-2 is frustrating to fire at necrons. There are 2 damage results that kill planes, stun and explode. Everything else is pretty much garbage. Shaken would be decent against doom scythes, but of course they ignore it on 2+. Stun is ignored on a 4+, so that leaves a 6 as the only real killer for necron planes. This is also why hydras have questionable value IMO. They can pick a hullpoint here and there, but the need to roll a 6 on damage results means they usually won't kill flyers outright. Hydras should be supporting other AA options, not be the prime AA IMO.

The reason that the all-out flyerspam list is worse than the more balanced version is that it is so fragile to alphastrike armies. I've been playing with making a droppod army (with air support of course). Against such a list, it is almost impossible for a list like the one reecius posted above to survive first round.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 18:51:19


   
Made in fi
Dakka Veteran




Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Im not forgetting that terrain exists LOL, the lists I mentioned are mostly very mobile or use a lot of barrage weapons. The risk of getting tabled comes in games when your opponent gets first turn so they have 2 turns to table your starting army.
No, you need to table your opponent on turn 1 if you want to win by tabling. On turn 2, he will get on average 6 flyers on table and you're not gonna take them out and you only win if opponent has no models on table at the end of a game turn, not player turn. (BYB page 122) .

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The biggest problem will be deep striking assault armies (or any deepstrike army that can beat crons in assault) who can land first turn then assault 2nd turn to get sweeping advances/spread out to prevent EL rolls.
Again, you need units that can do turn 1 deep strike assault. Turn 2 just doesn't cut it.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Edit: Random point; Is running out of time any worse for a horde player than their opponent? 180 orks can make it to objectives in 2-3 turns and would be hard to shift in the same amount of time.
Yes, because you'll be playing for a draw almost every match. Meaning you cannot really get good results in the tournament. And there's the possibility of judge saying something like "Ok, you both have X minutes for each turn. When that timer runs out, you won't do anything else except resolve ongoing CC". And if this happens, horde player will most likely lose.

Note: Full 9 flier army is probably not as good against all enemies as more balanced one is. And you can probably make a setup that can win against Necron Flyerwing consistently. Problem is, that list is not gonna work too well against anything else.

So currently Necron army with 6+ flyers is extremely strong and until armies get more Skyfire and Interceptor options, you will see that Necron flyers will dominate tournament scene. My guess is that first order of adaptation will occur quickly, with people starting to take Necron Allies with 2x Night Scythe and 1 Doomscythe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 18:46:39


 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

@moosatronic

I agree that there are some bad match-ups for them, and horde armies can beat them through board control, but they are just so tough.

@Illumini

Yeah, I totally agree and that is the main reason we pushed for FW this tournament season as it levels the playing field. And, there are a lot of other units that are just fun to use that I think will greatly enhance the enjoyment of the game.

   
Made in ca
Numberless Necron Warrior




in a necron tomb world under youre house

Whats the actual full list.

"Victory at great cost is no true victory."
2000

I am White/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
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I'm both orderly and selfish. I act mostly for my own benefit, but I respect and help my community - Specially when it helps me. At best, I'm loyal and dedicated; at worst, I'm elitist and shrewd.
 
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer



UK, Midlands

Luide wrote:
No, you need to table your opponent on turn 1 if you want to win by tabling. On turn 2, he will get on average 6 flyers on table and you're not gonna take them out and you only win if opponent has no models on table at the end of a game turn, not player turn. (BYB page 122) .



I had missed this! Thought it was player turn. Makes things much better for heavy reserves armies.
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought




Potters Bar, UK

 necronuser wrote:
Whats the actual full list.

Read the thread? Reecius posted it earlier....

 Reecius wrote:
@Space Pup

Simple list.

Imotekh

warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe

Deathmarks x 5 with Night Scythe
Deathmarks x 5 with Night Scythe

Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe

inmygravenimage wrote:Have courage, faith and beer, my friend - it will be done!
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Anonymity breeds aggression.
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Made in ca
Numberless Necron Warrior




in a necron tomb world under youre house

Thanks

"Victory at great cost is no true victory."
2000

I am White/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
<small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>

I'm both orderly and selfish. I act mostly for my own benefit, but I respect and help my community - Specially when it helps me. At best, I'm loyal and dedicated; at worst, I'm elitist and shrewd.
 
   
Made in gb
Storming Storm Guardian





OMG ... two of my least favourite armies destroying each other

The time for using the knife to remove this cancer is long gone. Bring forth the torch.
- Exarch Quaillindral
The mind of the Farseer is utterly inhuman in its depth and complexity. Without mercy or moral feeling, his consciousness stands upon the edge of spiritual destruction. That he does not fall must be a result of constraints and balances that only an Eldar could understand. To a mere Human it is yet another reminder that we are but children in comparison to that ancient and powerful race.
- Inquisitor Czevak
- 2010pts
- 385pts
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Made in us
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider




Thank you for posting this. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

Glad you guys liked it! haha

   
Made in us
Manhunter






Little Rock AR

Do you guys allow forgeworld in the mix? Because I think any army that can take Vultures would shred the RAF. (or would it be NAF?) They have vector dancer so they can turn 90, move then turn 90 again. Or more specifically an Elysian List from IA 8. Every unit can take a Valk as a DT.

Proud to be Obliviously Blue since 2011!

 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

We do allow FW in our events and games and I agree, the Vulture is pretty boss. Plus it's a gorgeous model.

Forgeworld has a ton of options for AA and flyers in 40K, they really help to level the playing field.

We're calling it Cron Air, haha, but NAF is a good one, too.

   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





somewhere in the northern side of the beachball

Wouldn't greentide be a good counter as well? Simply flooding the board with boyz forces the cron air either crash or off the table. That would be a pretty all commers list too as not many armies can handle 200+ models.

Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.

If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in. 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, actually, I don't like those amateur videos.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Cron Flyer Spam straight up sucked at NOVA. Gilstrap did well with it due to the heavy Wraith presence.

Bee beep boo baap 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




For your next "unfun" list vs something. Make the winner take The cinnamon challenge. FYI this is one of the funniest 40k things I've ever seen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For your next "unfun" list vs something. Make the winner take The cinnamon challenge. FYI this is one of the funniest 40k things I've ever seen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/04 23:47:42


 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Atlanta, Ga

Gotta throw my hat in with LValx on the Flyer Spam as presented here.

Neil pulled it off well with the Heavy Wraith presence as it drew soo much firepower while presenting a hard target on the ground.

After getting into the championship round of the GT and facing off against such a list, there is far more than a couple ways of cracking that egg...

None of the above; however, is to discount the fact that playing against such a list sucks gigantic donkey dick...


"United States Marine Corps: When it absolutely and positively has to be destroyed overnight"


"If all else fails, empty the magazine" 
   
Made in us
Numberless Necron Warrior






In regards to competitive play and basing it only on my experiences during the NOVA...

It felt to me that Cron air could be very effective and so could the modified Cron Air with heavy Wraiths. The problem is over the course of many games they will let you down due to reserve rolls being too unreliable. Mathematically you will have times when many of your flyers just don't come on the board and when games can end on turn 5 it may mean only one or two turns to utilize those points.

Also the way that Doomscythes were handled by the NOVA FAQ they became fairly risky to take. If you evade you can not fire the Death Ray. If you had one or two you may have entire games where neither of them ever use a DR or only shoot it a couple times. Not worth it IMHO.

The Cron players that fared the best had only one or two flyers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/05 13:36:29


8000
10,000
5000 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






That was some funny stuff!

   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





The Memphis Sprawl

That is a nasty list. At 2000pts recently I ran my Plague Marine list in a tourney and beat GK in the first round and was beaten squarely by two scythes, three annihilation barges, and a unit of wraiths I think(whatever the snakey dealies with the whips are) in the second round. The only thing that made losing fun was seeing that crap for the first time. The magic is lost for me now. The problem isn't entirely in the player who fields a list like this, it's at least partially in the ruleset that allows it.
In the words of Jesse Pinkman, "D.B.A.A."

"SIC GORGIAMUS ALLOS SUBJECTATOS NUNC" 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

Neil did do quite well, but I was pretty shocked to see not more of them doing well. In our test games it is easy as pie to walk all over folks with that list.

MVBrandt and I were talking and he tabled the Flyer list with his 5 Tervigon Nids by covering the board. Horde Orks could do that, too.

I do agree that a mixed list will be more flexible and fun to play.

And yeah, the Cinnamon challenge is something we've discussed! hahaha

   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





CT

Would 5 flyers count as spam at 1750? If so then my list did quite well getting me to the final four in the invitational. If it doesnt..then..alrighty then

But i would agree the flyer lists walk over certain things, but at NOVA there are too many things that can go wrong. One of which being a quarters missions against a full horde/foot army. Which is what happened to me sadly against Kopach.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/07 21:06:30


Fortune Favors the Bold
 
   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon





Memphis, TN

 Sharkvictim wrote:
That is a nasty list. At 2000pts recently I ran my Plague Marine list in a tourney and beat GK in the first round and was beaten squarely by two scythes, three annihilation barges, and a unit of wraiths I think(whatever the snakey dealies with the whips are) in the second round. The only thing that made losing fun was seeing that crap for the first time. The magic is lost for me now. The problem isn't entirely in the player who fields a list like this, it's at least partially in the ruleset that allows it.
In the words of Jesse Pinkman, "D.B.A.A."



HE BEAT ME!!!! He also chin checked a dread knight with two demon princes. Kinda cool!

Check out this comp!http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/498307.page
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2500 Brothers of Sanguinor
2500 Purifiers
750 : Bad Wolves

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