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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So, would it be possibel to post actual BATREPS? Not just video of the Battle. I like to read BATREPS over watching them.

Dude, reread what you wrote and how you wrote it. You were being a dick, and I responded with equal dickishness!

And why should I be required to take the high ground all the time when you didn't? Why should I apologize to you for not liking what we made? You offered no meaningful critique beyond expressing what you wanted as if that were sacrosanct.

As Jy2 pointed out, we have to put out a staggering amount of content on multiple platforms and then talk to people and we get a lot of folks like you who feel entitled to something they didn't pay anything for. I have always taken the high road, been conciliatory and nice, but in the past week I've just about had enough. You were just one more mean/critical voice in a sea of them and I responded with sarcasm.

If you don't like video bat reps, don't watch them.

If you like written bat reps, write some. Stop complaining about what other people provide for you to watch if you aren't willing to take any action yourself.

If you do produce some nice, written bat reps, sweet, then we can talk as peers, and if anything I'll thank you for taking the time out of your day to do so. Otherwise you're just a negative Nancy that is poo pooing on what we did. And before you get huffy with me, again, reread what you wrote. You sounded like a petulant child that wasn't getting your way.

@Norbu

Yeah, like Jy2 said, LRs will get owned by Doom Scythes. They have one of the best weapons in the game for taking them down.

Drop pods and such are your best bet for taking down this army Turn 1, and it is a lot easier said than done. We knew from the moment we read the Flyer rules that this would be a crazy army, but after actually playing it, wow, it is so dominating that it isn't even fun. At all.

Matt Ward strikes again!!!! Daemons in Fantasy just weren't enough, he had to top that performance.

I hope in a few months it is balanced out with AA, but still, this army is going to make people irate.

Reecius wrote:Otherwise you're just a negative Nancy that is poo pooing on what we did.

Man this came so close to being quoted in my sig LOL. Hilarious!

Reecius wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So, would it be possibel to post actual BATREPS? Not just video of the Battle. I like to read BATREPS over watching them.

Dude, reread what you wrote and how you wrote it. You were being a dick, and I responded with equal dickishness!

And why should I be required to take the high ground all the time when you didn't? Why should I apologize to you for not liking what we made? You offered no meaningful critique beyond expressing what you wanted as if that were sacrosanct.

As Jy2 pointed out, we have to put out a staggering amount of content on multiple platforms and then talk to people and we get a lot of folks like you who feel entitled to something they didn't pay anything for. I have always taken the high road, been conciliatory and nice, but in the past week I've just about had enough. You were just one more mean/critical voice in a sea of them and I responded with sarcasm.

If you don't like video bat reps, don't watch them.

If you like written bat reps, write some. Stop complaining about what other people provide for you to watch if you aren't willing to take any action yourself.

If you do produce some nice, written bat reps, sweet, then we can talk as peers, and if anything I'll thank you for taking the time out of your day to do so. Otherwise you're just a negative Nancy that is poo pooing on what we did. And before you get huffy with me, again, reread what you wrote. You sounded like a petulant child that wasn't getting your way.

1. "So, would it be possibel to post actual BATREPS? Not just video of the Battle." Seems like I'm asking if you could post actual battle reports. "I like to read BATREPS over watching them." Here i stated why I was asking for written batreps. No where was I a dick. Perhaps you seeing yourself in the post. 2. "we get a lot of folks like you who feel entitled to something they didn't pay anything for." No where did I say I was entitled. I didn't say "REECIUS GO MAKE ME WRITTEN REPORTS! NOW I"M ENTITLED TO THEM! I asked a question. To which you where a dick in responding to. 3. Even if you thought I was a dick, you run a business, you should be more professional. Now since you where immature and a dick to a simple question I'm going to assume your the same way to customers. 4. "Otherwise you're just a negative Nancy that is poo pooing on what we did." Please explain how asking if it was possible for you to make a written batrep is being a negative Nancy? I'd like to understand your reasoning here. No where did I state that I disliked your video reports. I just stated a preference for the written over a video.

Reecius I wouldn't even bother debating over this as there is really no reason for you to bend over backwards for the one percentile of the forum who wants to read your batreps instead of watching them which is your preference. Especially since you go completely out of your way to provide information for FREE. I personally, and im sure I speak for the majority of the forums, enjoy your expedited battle reports because not only do you do it quickly but you get a lot of information thrown in about the main actions each turn. Keep doing what youre doing!

y0disisray wrote:Reecius I wouldn't even bother debating over this as there is really no reason for you to bend over backwards for the one percentile of the forum who wants to read your batreps instead of watching them which is your preference. Especially since you go completely out of your way to provide information for FREE. I personally, and im sure I speak for the majority of the forums, enjoy your expedited battle reports because not only do you do it quickly but you get a lot of information thrown in about the main actions each turn. Keep doing what youre doing!

How is asking if its possible to get a written battle report me expecting Reecius to bend over backwards? I didn't demand it, I asked a question and told why I wanted it. All Reecuis had to say was. "Sorry but due to time constrains we can't make written batreps." And I would have said "Okay I understand." Instead he goes the immature dick way.

@Blue Dagger

haha, that would have been funny.

@OBC

It isn't worth fighting over. If I misunderstood what you were saying, then that's my bad. We do things the way we do them, but we do listen to criticism as it helps us improve. You came across as flippant and petulant. Going forward you may want to put more effort into explaining what you mean at the onset and things like this could be avoided.

Honestly though, make a written battle report. It takes a lot of time and energy as Jy2 pointed out. You may not be so casual in your requests if you try and produce quality content and then face all the critics who think it's easy or put down what you've done.

@y0disisray

Thanks! We do try and get a ton of info out fast so that people can learn what to expect.

We try and put enough information in to be informative, but not drag them out. Some folks like them quick and dirty, some like them longer and in depth. We try and strike a happy medium.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

1. "So, would it be possibel to post actual BATREPS? Not just video of the Battle." Seems like I'm asking if you could post actual battle reports. "I like to read BATREPS over watching them." Here i stated why I was asking for written batreps. No where was I a dick. Perhaps you seeing yourself in the post. 2. "we get a lot of folks like you who feel entitled to something they didn't pay anything for." No where did I say I was entitled. I didn't say "REECIUS GO MAKE ME WRITTEN REPORTS! NOW I"M ENTITLED TO THEM! I asked a question. To which you where a dick in responding to. 3. Even if you thought I was a dick, you run a business, you should be more professional. Now since you where immature and a dick to a simple question I'm going to assume your the same way to customers. 4. "Otherwise you're just a negative Nancy that is poo pooing on what we did." Please explain how asking if it was possible for you to make a written batrep is being a negative Nancy? I'd like to understand your reasoning here. No where did I state that I disliked your video reports. I just stated a preference for the written over a video.

Honestly I got the same impression from your post that Reecius did. Reecius provides us with endless entertainment and valuable 40k information for free, and your very first post is a very poorly worded request and nothing else.

At least have the decency to ask politely.

Anyways Reecius, ignore that guy. I'm sure I speak for the rest of us when I say we appreciate all your BATREPS (Video or not) and articles and hope to see much more.

As for the video, I laughed so hard near the end. It was literally a scene out of family guy.

Reecius wrote:@Blue Dagger

haha, that would have been funny.

@OBC

It isn't worth fighting over. If I misunderstood what you were saying, then that's my bad. We do things the way we do them, but we do listen to criticism as it helps us improve. You came across as flippant and petulant. Going forward you may want to put more effort into explaining what you mean at the onset and things like this could be avoided.

Honestly though, make a written battle report. It takes a lot of time and energy as Jy2 pointed out. You may not be so casual in your requests if you try and produce quality content and then face all the critics who think it's easy or put down what you've done.

@y0disisray

Thanks! We do try and get a ton of info out fast so that people can learn what to expect.

We try and put enough information in to be informative, but not drag them out. Some folks like them quick and dirty, some like them longer and in depth. We try and strike a happy medium.

Alright, then lets drop it. I do enjoy your video reports, they're fun and informational.

@Skelly

Thank you very much! Family Guy is genius, so that is funny as hell. Honestly though, I have to give credit for the Milk Part to Frankie and Keno, it was their idea! I actually doubted it would be funny but I was nearly pissing myself at the end I was laughing so hard!

@OBC

Fair enough, and sorry if I offended you. It's been a pretty hectic and stressful week for us.

Reecius wrote:We knew from the moment we read the Flyer rules that this would be a crazy army, but after actually playing it, wow, it is so dominating that it isn't even fun. At all.

Matt Ward strikes again!!!! Daemons in Fantasy just weren't enough, he had to top that performance.

I hope in a few months it is balanced out with AA, but still, this army is going to make people irate.

As a frequent TO, is this something that you think merits action? For example, if we don't see widely available AA soon, would you think it reasonable for TOs to put a hard cap on the number of flyers an army could take?

I'd be interested to see a battle report between two flyer heavy armies. The current assumption is that the guy who goes second just destroys player 1's flyers and autowins after that. It'd be interesting to test out. What's a better way to phrase that... MOAR BATREPS! Make the BATREPS I want NOW!!

Coming soon....jy2 accepts the milk challenge (or whatever challenge) in his quest to take down this 10-flyer monstrosity of a list.


I will show you all its weakness and I will use my Crowe-Purifiers to do so.

Needs to be bumped to a 2500 pt battle so someone can max out in bringing 12+ flyers...

I think the cron list will have a hard time against an IG Vendetta heavy list. If the IG should take out the Doom rays, then all they have to worry about are S7 guns. While on the other hand, the Crons have to deal with S9 lascannons. However thats the only list I can think of thats going to be an interesting Flier v Flier.

Ya to adding to my Ignore list!


Anyway, Nice Batrep, definitely didn't deserve too much effort as it was Necrons Kill/ Wolves miss the whole game. I stopped watching when the spue started flying though.

Reec, anyone ever tell you you sound like Badger from Breaking Bad?

Hahahaha yeah Reece does sound a bit like Badger now that you mention it.

Really liked the battle report the milk challenge was the star of the show.

I really pity the garbage guy that had to dispose of that

Someone should take one of those 9 or so hydra lists (if they actually stand a chance against these necron ones) to a tournie as a 'spoiler' game, so people who have necron airforces won't go 4-0 or however many games there are. Sure, you'll lose nearly every other game, but it'll be fun to know you are crushing others dreams. Or is that just me?

Also, nice batrep, gave me a good laugh

I don't think people realize how resilient Necron flyers really are. Some AA units on the ground just won't cut it. Chaos space marines are supposed to get Flak missiles with the Havocs. That's great. The flyers will still get the alpha strike on the Havocs and wipe them out.

In 6e volume of fire, and melta, does a good job of killing vehicles. AA weapons have neither rightnow. (except the expensive Dark Reapers Exarch with fast shot manning an Icarus. He has about a 44% chnace of downing the Necron flyer.) Only flyers can reasonably take out other flyers. Even the precious Quad Gun, firing with BS 5, only puts out 1.5 glances + pens on a flyer when it shoots. The Pen roll has about a 10% chance of stopping the flyer from firing it's main weapon. These odds scream that AA DOES NOT WORK.

Like I said any AA units will be targeted on the initial alpha strike and neutered. I think most people's experience with flyers has been a Storm-something or two. Not a dedicated Necron Flyer list.

6 Necron flyers, 4 Nightscythes and 2 Doomscythes, will dish out 24 wounds a turn to a Havoc squad from Tesla and 5-6 Deathray wounds. That is more than enough to kill 11 Havocs in 4+ cover before they can shoot their Flak Missiles. But let's say the other 10 man Havoc squad then fires. 4 Flak missiles have about a 30 % chance of shooting down the Necron Flyer or removing its only gun. This drops to 19% with a Doomscythe since it has 2 guns. Not great odds.

The only answer for Necron flyers is flyers of your own. You need about half as many flyers as your opponent and go second to have a reasonable chance of eliminating them. Dedicated Necron Flyer lists know this and try to limit the effect of going second by bringing an Aegis Defense Line with Relay Comms to help better control their reserve rolls for better or for worse.

In practice I have also found their is a way to help limit the damage 5-6+ flyers can do over time. If you can get 12" or closer to the flyers board edge (easier for vanguard deployment) it will be hard for flyers to get continuos shooting each turn. Of course dedicated Necron flyers should learn this and take units to deal with it, like lots of Wratihs. If you bum rush the Necron deployment zone, then you will meet up with the Wraiths before you can weaken them with shooting. Thisis why I am so impressed with the synergy of JY2's Necron army list. Both the Wraiths and Necron Flyers feed off each others disadvantages. It is a more powerful list than either all Necron flyers or all Wraiths.

Well said Darth, I agree on almost all of your points.
Also what exactly did the necron player deploy/what was his full army list?
Obviously 3 DS, 7 NS, 1 deathmark squad, but what was more so deployed and does he think he can survive 1st turn alpha strikes from pod armies/daemon armies.

You are forgetting one major equation in those remarks however Darth and that is the Interceptor special rule. When fliers come in these models get to target and fire at fliers at the end of the player's movement phase. These means it is before the flier gets to fire or move flat out. If they Evade it'll stifle their shots in the shooting phase and still only provide a 5+ jink. In the case of Death Ray they won't even get to fire if the Doom Scythe jinks.

Granted right now there isn't really squat with the interceptor rule for the most part outside of Quad/Icarus. However that doesn't mean that near future releases won't.

Also something to note in regards to the deathray is its line of site. I was having an interesting conversation in YMDC and don't forget that models that are 'out of site' pg16 BRB are ignored when resolving hits. So sure you can place that line anywhere within 12" do to poor wording but that hull mounted 45 limits what can be resolved as a hit do to LoS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/468360.page

Some great conversation here! Lots of good points.

@Amerikon

It is something to consider, for sure. We are actually opposed to banning any legal armies or lists on a philosophical basis (we are Team Zero Comp, after all!) but I think you are not off the mark suggesting that. I know a lot of the other TOs around the country have talked about it, too. We're going to keep thinking about ways to make tournament missions that level the playing field and anti-flyer tactics instead of an outright ban if we can at all help it.

I will say though, without hesitation, that army is the most OP army I have ever seen in this game in any edition.

@OBC

The only problem with the Vendetta army is that they can only shoot 3 units a turn as they are squadroned up. That means they are less efficient. Not a major set back by any means, but I think that puts them a tier under Cron Air.

@SlaveToDorkness & Skelly

Haha, I do! Never thought about that before. I have a really distinct voice though, sounds like I'm always hoarse.

@Ratius

Those guys had to throw their own barf out! hahaha

@DarthDiggler

You said it. Those AV11 Flyers with 3 HP are brutal! They are not easy to kill at all, and a lot of folks who say: why don't have a quad gin? as if that fixes it quite simply haven't played against this yet.

I think board control and movement will be your best bet until we get more Interceptor/Skyfire units in the game. That is actually one of the main reasons we pushed for the inclusion of FW units in tournament play this year as they bring a LOT of interceptor/skyfire armies to the table. This gives at least a fighting chance against Cron Air.

Reecius wrote:You said it. Those AV11 Flyers with 3 HP are brutal! They are not easy to kill at all, and a lot of folks who say: why don't have a quad gin? as if that fixes it quite simply haven't played against this yet.

It would be because I'm going to need that quad gin after a game against CronAir.

Best line in the video:

Reece: So Frankie, how was it playing against the Necron Air Force?

Frankie: *BLARRRRRFFF!!!!!*

Reecius - I agree that the current best counters to flyers is sitting in the Forgeworld army books. I don't know them all, but I have a Contemptor with two assault cannons that has skydive if it sits still for a turn. That would help.

BlueDagger - I didn't forget about interceptor. The Intercepting Quad gun only has a 30% chance to stop the Nightscythe from firing. That's just one Nightscythe. The Necrons will have 4-5 more flyers and a strong ground presence also. You have one 30% chance to stop one flyer before the others destroy the quad gun or the unit manning it. That Quad Gun is not firing next turn even if it survives.

No the current interceptor weapons are not enough to put a dent in flyer lists. Flyer lists are not 1-2 flyers. They are 4+ flyers with the best having 5-6 at 1850-2000pts.

I was really hoping some non descript units would have been given the ability to take on flyers. Like Swooping Hawks or Vespid Stingwings. Stuff like that which would have helped expand the viability of some units.

That's why I said there is next to no Interceptors right now, but when they do become more prevalent it'll drastically matter.

Btw that 30% estimate is a bit off.

BS4 with a Quad gun is per shot 44.44% chance to cause dmg (14.81% glance, 29.63% pen) and 11.11% chance per shot to stop the gun.

Not fantastic odds I know, but you have pretty decent chance to down the flier or stop its gun. If they Evade they get a 5+, but snap fire during their shooting phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is depressing odds for you...

322pts
Farseer w/ Guide, Runes of Ward
2 Reapers + exarch w/ fast shot, EML
Aegis w/ Icarcus Lascannon

Per shot percentages with this 2 shot twin linked, 96" range, BS5, Interceptor/Skyfire, S9 AP2 gun (pen, glance, and to stop % factor in the to hit)
97.22% to hit
16.20% Glance
64.81% Pen
32.41% to stop the flier from firing

For 322pts that is incredibly bad and that doesn’t even take into account if you Evade.

@Zathras

Quad Gin! Hahaha, that was a good one, must have been a Freudian slip!

@Darth

Yeah, the Mortis is awesome against Flyers. I think he is much more versatile than the Aegis/Quad Gun personally. With twin Keres, he is good against everything.

@Blue Dagger

I agree that when we have multiple units with Interceptor and Skyfire, it will make a significant difference. We'll see less Flyer dependent armies as folks will worry about getting that one bad match-up.

I think because of scenarios like the one presented here, Drop Pod armies and the like will make for hard counter to this list.

Just thinking about it but Podding Wolves could make short work of a list like this due to the reserve requirements.

I agree.

I have been toying around with what I think will be a real "Take All Comers" Marine list, and I include a Dread in a pod with twin H.Flamer and H.Flamer for just that reason. He can pop one of those units on the table with ease.

Barrage weapons will help a ton, too.

But a fully podding army will take a crap right on a full blown flyer list. They should take it out turn 1. The Flyer player would have to deploy most or all of his troops unit on the table in order to avoid getting tabled turn 1.

That is why I think ultimately we'll see more lists like Jy2's, which are well balanced and not so one dimensional.

I agree whole-heartedly... What would you think of Shunting Interceptors and Dreadknights for the job as well?

I have a Dreadknight in my list and he's done amazing things and kept more than a few people honest.