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 Commissar41.0 wrote:
Magnus duh he see into the future so he knoews how to deploy his forces accordingly......simple people

Thats not tactical, you still have to know what to do to counter a ploy. Relying on psychic farsight can actually have a negative effect, your not use to having to think what they might do because you know what they will do, so if they can override this and stop you from seeing the future you have to think like your enemy, which would be hard if you spent all your life just knowing, you wouldn't have to develop those skills.

Just like with the Thousand sons, Ahariman basically had to chastise his brothers into training with a blade and not just fireballing everything, because face it, you have the power to incinerate anything with your mind, would you bother to train with a sword? Powers makes everything easier, but when you rely on them like the Thousand sons did, your screwed when an enemy brings something that they can counter like the sisters of silence.

Prince_of_Crows wrote:The primarch's, like the astartes, weren't built equal, but in terms of skill. They all had roughly the same amount of skill but its placed in different categories. For the Emperor to create 20 legions and pour all his time into 20 super beings of almost demigod powers, it would be a massive waste to have 2 legions (and so 2 primarchs) employed to do the same thing with one being better at the thing there both trained to do. So it stands for good reason that 2 aren't employed to do the same thing.

I honestly don't think the Emperor put that much thought in it. As much as I disliked Deliverance Lost, between it and Outcast Dead, it seems the Primarchs' creation was a series of experiments that the Emperor himself didn't quite know how they would turn out. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had to purge two Legions for mutations and instability. The Primarchs adapted to and were shaped by their experiences. Guilliman was raised by a statesman and a general, so he became an excellent statesman and general. Both Corax and Kurze grew up in environments that required extreme stealth, so their bodies adapted to grant them this ability. Yet where Corax had a support group of friends and family, and grew to be a "good guy", Kurze grew up all alone and became a psychopath. The Lion grew up in a forest haunted by Chaos beasts and with mysterious aliens whispering in his ear, so he became paranoid and incapable of reading humans.

Of course, ironically, the one who benefited the most from the Emperor's tutelage also absorbed his immense hubris of "I do the same things countless despots and tyrants did before me, but it's okay when I do it, because I'm right".

DarthMarko wrote:So peace in the future brother ???

There is no peace amongst the interwebz, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of the thirsting trolls.

 Omegus wrote:

I honestly don't think the Emperor put that much thought in it. As much as I disliked Deliverance Lost, between it and Outcast Dead, it seems the Primarchs' creation was a series of experiments that the Emperor himself didn't quite know how they would turn out. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had to purge two Legions for mutations and instability.

But, could the mutation and instability have been caused by their impromptu sojourn in the warp or their new home world rather than the Emperors dabblings? The Emperor had intended all 20 to grow up on Terra so he could mould them to what he wanted, the Chaos Gods intervention prevented this.

I think that the Emperor had intentions for each Primarch, but as you say, their individual upbringing on their new homeworlds possibly put pay to this notion. Some, if not all, clearly have some lean towards certain aspect of combat.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

I honestly don't think the Emperor put that much thought in it. As much as I disliked Deliverance Lost, between it and Outcast Dead, it seems the Primarchs' creation was a series of experiments that the Emperor himself didn't quite know how they would turn out. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had to purge two Legions for mutations and instability.

But, could the mutation and instability have been caused by their impromptu sojourn in the warp or their new home world rather than the Emperors dabblings? The Emperor had intended all 20 to grow up on Terra so he could mould them to what he wanted, the Chaos Gods intervention prevented this.

I think that the Emperor had intentions for each Primarch, but as you say, their individual upbringing on their new homeworlds possibly put pay to this notion. Some, if not all, clearly have some lean towards certain aspect of combat.

I'm going to say its probably a mix of several factors. If they stayed on terra chances are the emperor would of trained extensively in a certain tactic. Corax could turn invisible in the shadow anyway, hinting that's what was required of him for the emperors plan. Gulliman seemed to be very adept at polotics anyway. However I believe the environments they found themselves in altered the roles of some. Lorgar, who I believe was more than likely meant to be a leader of men before being spirited away, still fufilled that role, its just not as an army commander, but as religious preacher. While Fulgrim was meant to be a skilled to perfection swordsmaster (i.e: rainiung down a few precision blows and killing swiftly), the world he landed on was in disrepair, and through fixing it his own ego grew into the bloated monster it is today.

An argument could be made that Alpharius was perhaps the greatest tactical genius of all with his doctrine of infiltration and annihilation. Striking from the shadows is sometimes seen as cowardly but it seems to get the job done pretty efficiently for the Alpha Legion time and time again.

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
An argument could be made that Alpharius was perhaps the greatest tactical genius of all with his doctrine of infiltration and annihilation. Striking from the shadows is sometimes seen as cowardly but it seems to get the job done pretty efficiently for the Alpha Legion time and time again.

I do agree with you, btw RG guerilla tactic won battles also which made Corax unpopular with his brothers...

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
An argument could be made that Alpharius was perhaps the greatest tactical genius of all with his doctrine of infiltration and annihilation. Striking from the shadows is sometimes seen as cowardly but it seems to get the job done pretty efficiently for the Alpha Legion time and time again.

That argument couldn't be made because guerrilla warfare and espionage aren't tactics, they're strategies.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
An argument could be made that Alpharius was perhaps the greatest tactical genius of all with his doctrine of infiltration and annihilation. Striking from the shadows is sometimes seen as cowardly but it seems to get the job done pretty efficiently for the Alpha Legion time and time again.

That argument couldn't be made because guerrilla warfare and espionage aren't tactics, they're strategies.

O come on DUDE- should we go again with that FING....

Actually it is kind of an important distinction. Its why Horus was named Warmaster and not the Lion type of important.



If people would stop using the words wrong it would go a long way to not talking in circles or people randomly saying who their favorite Primarch is.


Strategy and Tactics are two very different things.

Also just because one person like one strategy doesnt actually mean it is the best one out there. I know of arguments that would say that Gurreilla warfare is actually a very bad strategy but that depends on a whole host of factors. Some strategies are only useful in certain situations, and some are worthless in orthers.

 Galdos wrote:
Actually it is kind of an important distinction. Its why Horus was named Warmaster and not the Lion type of important.



If people would stop using the words wrong it would go a long way to not talking in circles or people randomly saying who their favorite Primarch is.


Strategy and Tactics are two very different things.

Also just because one person like one strategy doesnt actually mean it is the best one out there. I know of arguments that would say that Gurreilla warfare is actually a very bad strategy but that depends on a whole host of factors. Some strategies are only useful in certain situations, and some are worthless in orthers.

To quote the book "Galaxy in flames" Horus was a warmaster because he never "LOSES" ....

Ya, and he doesnt lose because of how good at strategy he is.

It is actually possible for the Lion to be better at tactics than Horus but if Horus is LEAGUES better than Lion at strat while the Lion is only slightly better at tactics, Horus will win every time.

 Galdos wrote:
Actually it is kind of an important distinction. Its why Horus was named Warmaster and not the Lion type of important.

The reason as I saw that Horus was Warmaster was because:

1: the Emperor favoured him massively.

2: He was a very good tactician and strategist.

2: He was pally with all the Primarchs and their legions. He accepted the guys that no body else did, mortarion, Magnus and Konrad were called freaks by a lot of the others, while Alpharius was more or less trained under Horus's command for the first few months when he was found and he found common ground with a lot of the legions, Sanguinius for example, who was said that the 2 were good friends. Hell he wasn't hot headed over psychic powers, understood that different ways of war were needed to win (wasn't like a certain blue mary sue marine who got all arrogant with the Alpha Legion, saying "My legions better than yours because I have the biggest legion, more worlds and I started 200 years before you did, so you can't fight as well") and he was compassionate towards other legions, meaning that he garnered support from many. He was humble too, saying that Sanguinius should of been warmaster and not him.

Hell on top of this he was so close to the emperors power it was extraordinary (tho it asks questions about big E as to why someone almost a carbon copy of himself fell to chaos).

I reckon that if it was anybody but Horus there would be public outcry, but most people liked horus so electing him was the best thing to do on many levels.

Okay I wasnt actually being literal. There are a whole host of reasons why Horus was declared Warmaster like Prince of Crows said.

What I meant is that the difference between Strategy and Tactics is worth noting because there are different answers depending on what we are talking about

Horus Lupercal was the best guy for the job - simple...Sang is better as a Martyr, and think if Sang was warmaster we would never have a wonderful thing called "heresy":-)

 Prince_of_Crows wrote:
The reason as I saw that Horus was Warmaster was because:

1: the Emperor favoured him massively.

2: He was a very good tactician and strategist.

2: He was pally with all the Primarchs and their legions. He accepted the guys that no body else did, mortarion, Magnus and Konrad were called freaks by a lot of the others, while Alpharius was more or less trained under Horus's command for the first few months when he was found and he found common ground with a lot of the legions, Sanguinius for example, who was said that the 2 were good friends. Hell he wasn't hot headed over psychic powers, understood that different ways of war were needed to win (wasn't like a certain blue mary sue marine who got all arrogant with the Alpha Legion, saying "My legions better than yours because I have the biggest legion, more worlds and I started 200 years before you did, so you can't fight as well") and he was compassionate towards other legions, meaning that he garnered support from many. He was humble too, saying that Sanguinius should of been warmaster and not him.

Hell on top of this he was so close to the emperors power it was extraordinary (tho it asks questions about big E as to why someone almost a carbon copy of himself fell to chaos).

I reckon that if it was anybody but Horus there would be public outcry, but most people liked horus so electing him was the best thing to do on many levels.

I agree with most of what you said, except that I think the Roboute hate is a bit overblown, and Horus pre-fall wasn't near the Emperor's power, he doesn't seem to have any active psychic abilities. Even Lorgar, a lesser psyker than Magnus, telepathically commanded him.

I agree with everything else though.

It was IIRC explicitly stated that Horus's biggest objective asset over the other Primarchs was diplomacy, aided by a supposed humble exterior that made him seem more relateable. Compare to Magnus, who is certainly charismatic, but it became very apparent to that psyker remembrancer that Magnus didn't share the humility his second in command, Ahriman did.

Yeah, Magnus was a complete douchebag donkey-cave.

Your mother is a donkey-cave Blax.

So's your face. Honey.

Don't make me knock your teeth out with a brick as I take you from behind in a ditch boyobo.

Son, I will break you.

Bane style.

No.

Leman Russ style.

War is more than just fighting, there is tremendous effort being put out to supply resources, manpower, and technology. The most successful armies have all three, plus on top of this, they have tactics, strategy, speed, vitality, and are capable of extreme adaptability...which might also be a branch of technology, not really sure.

Anyway, that is on the front of supplying a successful army. But there's also diplomacy, rather than conquer an enemy through martial strength, you can bring them to your side and use them as allies. You can learn their culture, and find advantages and new ways, new technology, gain more resources.

All of these things tie in, and one missing might not have much effect in the short term, but added together, the tiniest detail down to raising a child who is strong, healthy, and smart has created and brought destruction of empires.

Military power is needed for defense, as well as killing an enemy, and wars are waged when an enemy is smart and knows how to avoid being killed. That's what got us guns and tanks in the first place. And the only way a war can be started is if you have a society going with enough materials, knowledge, and culture, opposing something similar. To understand the basis of this is to know how to make each and every flow of action within a civilization work toward what you want. And hopefully, with enough effort, to create the weapon or the bullet that strikes the killing or decisive blow that will win you that war.

I think Horus knows this, and learned this from the Emperor himself, and that's the reason why he was chosen as Warmaster, and the reason why he is unwilling to go up against a combination of the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels. As great and knowing as he is, this is only the knowledge that he alone possesses, whereas in his three brothers, there lies a conglomerate of all three, within three different minds.

The imminent arrival of Guilliman at the head of his Legion caused the Traitors to abandon the siege of Terra.

MarsNZ wrote:
The imminent arrival of Guilliman at the head of his Legion caused the Traitors to abandon the siege of Terra.

And the Space Wolves, IIRC, and another legion whose name eludes me at the moment.

As well, the arrival of the other legions isn't what "caused the Traitors to abandon the Siege of Terra", it was Horus getting blown to freakin bits that caused them to abandon the siege of Terra.

BlaxicanX wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
The imminent arrival of Guilliman at the head of his Legion caused the Traitors to abandon the siege of Terra.

And the Space Wolves, IIRC, and another legion whose name eludes me at the moment.

As well, the arrival of the other legions isn't what "caused the Traitors to abandon the Siege of Terra", it was Horus getting blown to freakin bits that caused them to abandon the siege of Terra.

Fething "A" brother...

BlaxicanX wrote:
IIRC, and another legion whose name eludes me at the moment.

Dark Angels

 FinalAnswer wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
IIRC, and another legion whose name eludes me at the moment.

Dark Angels

BlaxicanX wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
The imminent arrival of Guilliman at the head of his Legion caused the Traitors to abandon the siege of Terra.

And the Space Wolves, IIRC, and another legion whose name eludes me at the moment.

As well, the arrival of the other legions isn't what "caused the Traitors to abandon the Siege of Terra", it was Horus getting blown to freakin bits that caused them to abandon the siege of Terra.

Yes but Horus only died because of the arrival of the Loyalist caused Horus to gamble an all or nothing plan.

So in a way it is okay to say what he said. The traitors did stop their siege of the palace when word came because they went with plan B.

The problem with that logic is that you can take it and run with it.

Horus only confronted the Emperor because of the imminent arrival of the other legions. But the other legions only managed to arrived because the Night Lords, Thousand Sons and Word Bearers failed to defeat them. Those legions failed to defeat them because yadayadayada and so on and so on and so fourth. Obviously, there was a huge chain of events that ultimately led to the Traitors defeat. Trying to make one specific event more significant than the rest is pointless.

As well, you have to take into consideration that while the other loyalist legions's arrival is what forced Horus' hand, it's not what caused him to lose- thus there is no direct cause and affect there. Even with the Loyalist's arrival, Horus could have killed the Emperor in there fight. He would have probably just been killed by the loyalist reinforcements, but the Emperor would be dead. IIRC Horus managed to mortally wound the Emperor but hesitated before delivering the killing blow, thus giving the Emperor a window to one-shot him. That hesitation had nothing to do with the Loyalist arrival.

Similarly, the loyalist reinforcements had nothing to do with the traitor legions turning tail. If Horus hadn't died then they would have stayed and probably fought to the death. Hell, even with Horus dead, they could have chosen to stay and fight to the death anyway. They chose not to.

Word Bearers didn't really fail. They were instrumental in creating the warp storms that stifled Imperial communications and travel, and killed something like 100,000 Ultramarines. They basically took the Ultras out of the fight (it remains to be seen which version they will go with, since some accounts list the Ultras among the approaching Legions, while others omit them).

Thousand Sons were not part of the betrayal, and indeed were betrayed by their own Primarch.

The Night Lords were renegades, not rebels, and Kurze just wanted to lash out as much as possible to prove a point. His Legion avoided direct confrontation with the Dark Angels, and struck mostly civilian or lightly-defended military supply targets before the Siege of Terra. Their goal was to distract the Dark Angels and keep them out of the battle.

It's interesting to think what would happen if the Legions were to arrive earlier (wasn't aware of this Russ/Kion story... more short-sighted sentimentality from the Wolves, what else is new ). The Emperor teleporting onto Horus' flagship was as much an act of desperation as Horus lowering his shields. If the loyalist reinforcements arrived before the gates were breached, the battle could have gone very differently. I guess we'll never know.

I don't really see how any of that contradicts anything I said.