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Hey guys. I'm looking at the points i'm spending on my heavy armor and i'm having second thoughts. I didn't magnetize but I might add it in. I'm wondering whether you guys think these tank lay-outs are points well spent or overkill.

1) X2 LRBT with lascannon in the hull, heavy bolter sponsons and a pintle heavy stubber. The lascannon gives a chance to pop a transport, blast the contents, then hose the stragglers with overwhelming firepower. With the new rules i'm using more of this firepower than before but i'm still having second thoughts. The tank generally sits back and acts as a bunker tooled to the max with anti-infantry/light tank firepower. The lascannon would be better replaced with a heavy bolter but I like having the lascannon as a back-up against transports. Do you think it would be better having a third bolter instead of lascannon as insurance? Is the stubber a good idea? I think they're good on paper. A single marine kill and I get it's points back. Should I strip it down to the battle cannon and something in the hull?

2) X2 Demolishers. I've given them a hull lascannon, plasma sponsons and a pintle stubber. The idea was to be a threat at all distances. At 48'' i'm getting pot shots at transports, 36'' i'm hitting infantry and transports and if anything gets close enough i'm flattening it. The combinations just very expensive and i'm sure I can achieve the same result with heavy bolter sponsons or without the sponsons at all. What do you think? The tank usually presses forward to provide cover for plasma and melta vets in chimera as a main attack force for clearing and holding objectives. I'm thinking I might achieve this with just the demo cannon and a hull heavy bolter but am I losing the opportunity for increased killing power?

3) Executioner. I've got the plasma sponsons and the hull bolter. Designed to be a MEQ killer from day one at 36''. It doesn't have a stubber. I'm a believer of the stubber. 10points for x3 36'' S4. It's gotta' kill something and it synch's with the tanks range, It's a seriously expensive tank though. Are the sponsons needed? I feel they are. The bolter in the hull. Would I get more mileage from the lascannon? Are the sponsons worth it with vehicles now affected by 'gets hot'? I think probably so but I've not yet field tested it.

1.) well, this is the standard loadout (well, not with the stubber, but still). Not necessarily the best at anything, but it's always going to be at least a little bit useful every game, and with AV14, it has the power to apply it's slightly crummy killing power over many turns, which makes up for it.

Not as good as specialist tanks, but there's really nothing I could complain about with this setup (well, except possibly the stubber).

2.) I go back and forth on hull lascannons for demolishers. On the one hand, they get extra range and the ability to pair S and Ap with the main gun nicely. On the other hand, you're probably going to want to get close, because the main gun is so much better than the lascannon. As such, I'd actually be seriously tempted to break out multimelta sponsons over the hull lascannon in this edition.

Or just keep it cheap and stick a hull heavy flamer on there.

3.) I actually like plasma cannon sponsons more than I did in the past. Now they're actually useful against vehicles, and cover got worse. Yes, you're going to throw on a few glances on yourself, but that's okay, because it's going to be hard for your opponent to throw glances on you with that AV14.

That said, I still don't like this tank in general. WAAAAY too expensive. I mean, for the price of a 5xplas executioner with hull lascannon, you're getting dangerously close to TWO LRBT's or two exterminators, the latter of which I'd definitely rather have.

Thanks for the feedback. You've reassured me about my current load outs. Cost cutting is ok but you don't want to lose the extra killing power, especially on such a sturdy chassis.

The leman russ is a lot harder to 'crew shake' this edition, which gives it a big boost.

That makes it a lot safer to load up on sponsons. I think sponsons are really needed for the russ, it is tempting to try to buy-in cheap, but really, its offensive output, as Alairos mentioned, is really poor. But increased survivility and low percentage of crew shakens means that you can safely add cost, and firepower.

Your LRBT loadout looks pretty good considering the new rules to firing.

Move 6" shoot the battle cannon, shoot the lascannon at BS3 and snap fire the heavy bolters. Now that the battle cannon is a more consistent vehicle hunter, this is a pretty flexible build. I actually like it more than triple heavy bolter, if only because I like the battle cannon against medium armor tanks now. The stubber is fine here, but is VERY cuttable if you find yourself short on points.

Your demolisher thoughts are interesting, with rear armor 11, it is even more survivable, and even more of a safe bet to put some premiere sponsons on it. I think I hate plasma sponsons on it however. Due to how snap fire works, I think that having two blast weapons in addition to your turret is just asking for trouble, your demolisher cannon is really the premiere ranged attack (that isn't skyfire) in 40k now. Space marines are going nuts over their vindicators. Any temptation to not move is probably bad. If you take the hull lascannon and plasma sponsons, then you are going to be tempted to snap fire a lascannon and fire one plasma cannon and the demolisher cannon. That is almost certainly not as good as firing one multi-melta and snap firing another along with the lascannon. I do see the merit, there is that magical moment where you get to go stationary and shoot at that 2+ save unit, and that might be worth the opportunity cost.

For your executioner, the lascannon is pretty tempting, it adds cost to something ridiculously expensive, but it also adds some flexiblity to a tank that is leaning pretty hard to anti-personnel only. Any shot you can take against a tank that you need to die can contribute to a win, particularly with first blood. It will kill more consistently against 2+ armor than a heavy bolter, and is even comparable against 3+ armor. the plasma sponsons work here as, in my experience, it was a lot easier to get that stationary set up with the 36" range executioner cannon. Remember also that the executioner cannon doesn't get hot. Make sure you roll for sponsons only, don't screw yourself out of that ever important hull point.

None of those builds are points overspent. You've got to remember that the leman russ has an opportunity cost built into its survivibility, if it isn't putting out enough damage to warrant being shot at by the enemy, than the survivibility investment is wasted. You need to make the tank a threat, then the armor 14 will be useful. That being said, be careful overloading on non-scoring, non-denial units. You'll be VERY happy on 'big guns never tire' but very sad on 'crusade' and 'scouring'.

Also, I'd recommend a loadout very similar to option #1, and that's to replace the turret weapon with an exterminator cannon. No splattiness, but is much better against vehicles AV10-12, is better against monstrous creatures and terminators, and it can attack fliers, which none of your getups can.

Combined with a hull lascannon, you've got hurt against vehicles and big things, and combined with sponson bolters you've got hurt against hordes through the pure number of shots you have.

It can also snap fire at cruising speed - the only russ that can fire its main gun on the move.

I am planning to run two LRBT with HF (cheap) and an Exterminator with max HB and Pask.

I always ran mine as a LRBT with a lascannon. That lascannon was just so helpful, and in 6th, even if you got a weapon destroyed result, it was still a threat. That said, I still feel like a plain old Lascannon/battlecannon russ is a little lacking. I'm currently looking into Exterminators with x3 bolters, Exterminators with lascannons, and LRBT's with x3 bolters. It'll take some playing around to figure out what's best on the table though.

I have given thought though of taking a battery of 3 basilisks, and two x2 exterminator squadrons with lascannons and heavy bolters. That gives me reasonable anti air, monstrous creature, anti armor, and anti horde, all on some very powerful heavy support choices. Yeah 3 basilisks is a bit overkill, but it practically guarantees that I'll hit the target at least once, and will obliterate aegis defence line based armies.

I agree I'm going to want some anti-air in there too. I'm dragging my feet a little since i've a lot of infantry and hws that i'm hoping to make some sort of fire base out of. Especially now blobs are more vulnerable than ever. I'm even considering taking a blob without p/weps and a priest. It's hardly going to be a CC beast but perhaps it'll drag my target down with bodies. I need to field test a few new infantry set-ups before I decide on where I place my anti-air. I'll probably take some extermintors in the end.

The lascannon on the LRBT does come in handy a great deal. It's a single BS3 shot but its one that was taken as a bit of insurance and since its always firing, usually gets its little moment in a battle. The stubber then helps a little way to covering the fact you had to replace a third bolter to take the lascannon. The purpose of my LRBT is entirely multi-functional. Forming a rear firebase, it has a decent range, good anti-infantry capability for horde and MEQ, and can pose a realistic threat to transports.

I've found my tanks split into 6 arch types.

Close range 0''-36''

Light infantry - Hellhound, Chimera
Medium Infantry / Anti-transport - Hellhound, Chimera, Demolisher, Executioner
Heay infantry / Anti-medium tank / Anti-MC - Demolisher, Executioner
Anti-heavy tank - Demolisher

Long range 36''-unlimited''

Light infantry - Manticore
Medium Infatry / Anti-transport - LRBT
Heay infantry / Anti-medium tank / Anti-MC - LRBT
Anti-heavy tank - Manticore

As you can see I've a good balance in the middle where multiple units can take up the role. A few for heavy tanks which is the least prominant. A few for light units which infantry will also provide a big boost. And most in the middle for MEQ's, termies, transports ect. which are the most prominant targets on the field. My multi-use units will be fielded more than the specialist. Manticore is always worth taking, LRBT and demolisher too. I don't think I've ever had a turn where i've been at a loss to find an ideal target. The rest are more situational and based on the current meta. Termie spam will warrent my exey. Lots of horde players will warrent a few more transports or even my hellhounds.

The problem is there is now an additional archtype, fliers. Something I either need to find a nice infantry set-up to deal with or take some exterminators.

Also, the dark horse here is the bolter boat punisher.

Against AV11 transports, the most likely outcome is putting down 3 glancing hits per turn of shooting. Against fliers, you're putting down .8 glancing hits compared to the las/bolter exterminator's 1 (so, almost the same). Against non-SS-termies, the exterminator is throwing down 1.3 wounds that stick (.99 against SS termies). The punisher (SS or no) throws 1.66 to the ground per turn.

It's not a perfect analogue, as the punisher does nothing whatsoever to AV12 (which is rather unfortunate), and its 15 points more expensive, and doesn't come with a lascannon. Holy hell does 29 S5 shots wreck certain things, though, especially in a world of less cover.

More of a specialist, I know. But something actually vaguely worth considering in this rules edition in general, and in your set of circumstances in specific.

It's funny you should say that because I keep looking at the punisher and wondering whats so bad about 29 shots? Then I remember that you (Ailiros) had run the mathhammer and worked it out to be less points efficient than lasguns lol. And now you reccomend it. I hate having to swap my army around like this lol Ah well. I'll look into it further. I should be ok holding off on the anti-air for now since i'm only playing my friends until we're all comfortable with 6th ed and are happy with our lists.

BTW, thats not a dig Ailiros, I've found you're advice very benificial over the years and a lot of the things you say are tactically sound. I can assure you that any recomendation you make I take seriously. Much appretiated

Deceiver wrote: Then I remember that you (Ailiros) had run the mathhammer and worked it out to be less points efficient than lasguns lol. And now you reccomend it. I hate having to swap my army around like this lol

Well that's because they WERE utter rubbish. Three things have changed with 6th ed that have made them borderline worth taking now.

- said lasgunners against which the punisher was competing just got easier to kill, while russes just got relatively more durable.

- you can now glance vehicles to death. In fact, it's the most reliable way of killing vehicles now. This makes weapons that put out a lot of shots but could only reliably glance go from the worst weapons for the job to arguably the best.

- you have fliers now, which are only reliably hit on 6's by most units. This means that you need a weapon that puts out a LOT of shots.

Put these all together, and you get something that's still too expensive by 20 points, but is now vaguely worth considering now.

I just discovered a good tank. Either a Commissar or Command exterminator from an allied armoured company detachment. Give it ace gunner and you save a lot of points over Pask. The Commissar would even give a ld 10 bubble for orders. You even get the +1 pen on the move, although you lose the reroll against MCs.

In fact, I'm really liking the look of AC allied. You can take russes with skills as troops and free up those HS slots for other uses.

I'm by no means an expert but I'd have to go with option 1).
I simply love the versatility of the vanilla Russ with a las. While it may not excel at anything, it's decent at everything and will soak up fire away from some of my transports.

You can also consider it in allied IG if the army you are allying with needs anti-infantry firepower, like Tau for instance.

In 5th I wouldn't recommend sponsons. Russ was easier to stop from shooting, and cover was better. In 6th I've started tacking them on again.

With randomized weapon destroyed results it doesn't hurt to have more guns. Plasma overall got better even with overheats. I still don't take plasma since I don't like hitting 1 model with small blasts (my opponents are always spread out when possible)

Heavy Bolters are standard fair now imo. The only sponsons I wouldn't recommend are the heavy flamers. They aren't impossible to use, but they are just so odd Hull weapon wise - I typically always pay for the lascannon as well, they aren't terrible and have a great potential to do something. Heavy flamer is what I run if I can't afford the sponsons or lascannon. Besides variety looks cooler on the table top. I think the my exterminator turrets are going to see alot more use this edition. Being able to fire at fliers, and not having to snap fire your heavy bolters is nice.

I still wish the eradicator had some use - it just got more superfluous this edition. (And my friend has shelved his nids )

Well, even more so it was wound wrapping. In 6th edition, a LRBT firing bolter sponsons will do more damage. In 5th edition, a LRBT firing bolter sponsons did LESS damage.

Thankfully that's fixed now.

So, the question is, do the sponsons do enough damage to justify their cost, both in making their points back, and in prospective points one could be spending on other things in their list.

I'm thinking of trying an Exterminator and a vanilla russ tomorrow with both packing a lascannon and bolter sponsons, and I'm curious to see how this goes. Yeah, that's a mere 20pts spent on 6 extra heavy bolter shots a turn, but will they really do much? Between 2 tanks, that's 40pts, and in a 1,000pts list, that is a pretty big deal for IG.

For the exterminator, I guess it'll make it a much larger threat to MC and lightly armored flyers, as well as infantry, so the sponsons synergize well there. Even with 3 different weapon profiles, they'll still mesh fairly well against most targets. Even against infantry, you can shoot the autocannons and bolters first to eat through meatshield scrubs, and try and save the lascannon wound for a special character in the back. But for the LRBT, I'm not so sure. The template and bolter shots are very different things, made for different targets. Against infantry, they'll both annihilate, but I imagine their effectiveness will plummet when you deviate from that target. Throw in the lascannon, and it's seeming like it'll be a jack of all trades, failure at all. I think if I run vanilla russes in the future, they will either have x3 bolters, or a lascannon, but they'll never mix the two.

I believe the extra damage combined with being an ablative damage result for the main gun is what makes the sponsons viable.

The ablative damage is really what you want. With sponsons, you only have a 25% chance of losing the main gun as opposed to 50/50 without them.

MrMoustaffa wrote:So, the question is, do the sponsons do enough damage to justify their cost, both in making their points back, and in prospective points one could be spending on other things in their list.

Yes.

On a leman russ, you get two heavy bolters for 20 points. If you wanted to add more heavy bolters, you'd have to spend 65 points of them (at the cheapest) with an HWS. That's the whole point of the efficiency of weapons upgrades - you've already spent the points for the carrier. Adding more dakka makes it more efficient.

The only time, as you imply, is if you're really never going to use them because they will always be shooting at a target that the upgrade can't hurt, making it 20 points for no extra damage. In the case of an LRBT, though, I find it unlikely. In fact, in the case of everything except the vanquiser, I find this unlikely. Eventually, you're shooting at infantry, and the heavy bolters will help. Of course, if we're talking about different sponsons, then you can always tailor the sponsons to the main cannon.

Plus, once again, consider the carrier. 20 points adds 2 heavy bolters to a HP3 AV14 carrier. Spending 20 points on a couple of heavy bolters for a PIS is throwing that onto a more fragile frame. Plus, there's less opportunity cost. With the infantry you waste the points and you waste the heavy weapons slots. With the tank, you just waste the points.

Really, I'm almost coming to the conclusion that you should always take sponsons unless points are really tight, or you have something else really good to spend said points on.

I want to elaborate on Grey Templar's last point (which is 100% accurate). Even if you snapfire every turn with your HB sponsons, a six turn game results in 6 extra hits. That results in 1.33 extra MEQs, which is basically 20 points, making it roughly a push as far as kills per point are concerned. That makes the protection for the main gun basically free, and the protection is arguably the most important ability.

I would really only reconsider it if I desperately needed the points, but from a modeling standpoint, I'd feel comfortable gluing heavy bolter sponsons on most tanks.

How does the LRBT fire its battle cannon and still shoot its other weapons as normal. The rule for Ordnance say that if you fire an Ordnance weapon all other weapons must be made as Snap Shots?

Lumbering Behemoth lets it fire one ordinance weapon and one regular weapon as normal, the rest are Snapshots.

So it can move 6" and fire the Battlecannon and Lascannon normally, and the 2 HB sponsons as Snapshots.

I think I have an odd load out on my chassis then.

I have a Russ I can run as a "count as" demolisher (actually an eradicator but i prefer its gun to the normal demolisher) or an executioner with a hull bolter, storm bolter and multimelta sponsons.

Sounds like I made mine a bit of a feth up but I like the way it looks. Plus it fits in with my army theme a bit more.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Lumbering Behemoth lets it fire one ordinance weapon and one regular weapon as normal, the rest are Snapshots.

So it can move 6" and fire the Battlecannon and Lascannon normally, and the 2 HB sponsons as Snapshots.

I was always under the impression that Lumbering Behemoth lets you fire all the weapons even when firing ordnance. It does specify that it can fire "it's turret weapon in addition to any other weapon" if it remains stationary or moves 6 inches.
It could have been updated in the FAQ which I'll admit I don't remember much of what's in there.

Sorry this is slightly off topic, but I noticed some of you talking about anti air, an I just have to ask why?

Every army should look like this.

HQ.... random

Elites...random

troops... random

Fast Attack... Vendetta Vendetta an more Vendettas

Heavy...random

You armour shouldn't have to worry about shooting down flyers, the Vendetta is prolly the best dogfighter in the game.

 Ailaros wrote:
1.)

2.) I go back and forth on hull lascannons for demolishers. On the one hand, they get extra range and the ability to pair S and Ap with the main gun nicely. On the other hand, you're probably going to want to get close, because the main gun is so much better than the lascannon. As such, I'd actually be seriously tempted to break out multimelta sponsons over the hull lascannon in this edition.

Or just keep it cheap and stick a hull heavy flamer on there.

My son regularly fields two demolishers with just hull h. flamers and they are every useful against my orks:

He knows that in general orks want to get close and also that many missions require putting yourself closer to the enemy via objective taking.

so with these two facts in mind why not have the higher strength and lower AP of the main gun? It vaporizes most targets and even my mega nobz have to fear the AP, and the heavy flamer can take a dent out of many ork squads if needed.

He prefers to keep cost per individual tank down (he tends to apply this to his wole army, going with a "quantity over quality" philosophy tbh) and have a role a dedicated role for them: close support is the name of the game with his demolishers

I assume they would be equally useful/effective vs. IG, daemons, eldar/Dark eldar, etc. due to similar squishy targets...