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We could stop sticking our nose in the affairs of other countries to some extent, but I'm not sure we should become completely isolationist.

This thread has taught me that many Americans are blissfully unaware of their own nation's military history, and when told about it they'll just ignore it because they like to believe something different. And I've learned that people like to pretend their country isn't dependant on other nation's for resource and material supplies, and that their economy would truck along nicely even if such things were threatened.

I mean, I know people like to complain about politicians, but given the level of knowledge in this thread and the general level of indifference showed to that information, can imagine if countries were run by ordinary citizens? Horrifying.

 dogma wrote:
I'll grant you that what I view as an interesting argument is often hijacked by libertarians and conservatives looking to either bolster free market rhetoric, or play on the notion of government waste through populism, but its still something to consider.

Especially when you look at the real substance of what the humanitarian groups are saying - they're arguing don't just give aid blindly, but instead give specific forms of aid that come with strong conditions for the ruling government.

While America has never truly been isolationist, it also has never been as involved in world affairs to the same degree in the past as it has been post WWII. I don't think economic isolation would work, but Americans need to learn that we have no business propping up illegitimate states (Israel primarily) and launching unjustified wars of aggression.

Whether or not Imperialism is wrong is an entirely separate debate, but the fact remains that a nation can not be imperialistic without public support. Americans have never admitted to imperialistic tendencies even though they existed in the past, but they certainly do not exist now and the government needs to understand that without a big bad (Nazi Germany, USSR) to oppose Americans have no desire to interfere in other nation's affairs.

I almost think some of these politicians envision modern America as the spiritual successor of the British Empire and that simply isn't the case.

I think, as an American, that Americas influence on the world has been a net positive. The idea that some other country thrust into the dominant power level that we were would some how be more benevolent and kindhearted than us is fairly laughable, given human nature and the long view of history. If there was some infallible way of leveling the playing field for all nations then by all means, I would be on board. Failing that, I doubt there is any nation or group of nations who could take the reigns from us and make the world a significantly better place.

 Amaya wrote:
While America has never truly been isolationist, it also has never been as involved in world affairs to the same degree in the past as it has been post WWII. I don't think economic isolation would work, but Americans need to learn that we have no business propping up illegitimate states (Israel primarily) and launching unjustified wars of aggression.

The issue comes that with an international economy you need a military that can protect American business interests overseas.

I almost think some of these politicians envision modern America as the spiritual successor of the British Empire and that simply isn't the case.

Well, you haven't caused a famine killing 10 million Indians yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bromsy wrote:
I think, as an American, that Americas influence on the world has been a net positive.

I think any reasonably honest view of history would have to conclude the US has been the most reasonable of empires we've yet seen. At the same time, a reasonably honest view of American Imperialism would have to have a pretty large chapter on the messed up things they've done.

I mean that's just how it is, when you have the power to feth with other people's countries you do some good things and some bad things. The answer isn't to pretend you'll just stop using that power, because that's never, ever going to happen. It couldn't, even if you wanted it to.

The answer is to is try and develop a mature way of dealing with that power, and trying as often as possible to go down paths that'll benefit all nations.

 sebster wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
While America has never truly been isolationist, it also has never been as involved in world affairs to the same degree in the past as it has been post WWII. I don't think economic isolation would work, but Americans need to learn that we have no business propping up illegitimate states (Israel primarily) and launching unjustified wars of aggression.

The issue comes that with an international economy you need a military that can protect American business interests overseas.

I almost think some of these politicians envision modern America as the spiritual successor of the British Empire and that simply isn't the case.

Well, you haven't caused a famine killing 10 million Indians yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bromsy wrote:
I think, as an American, that Americas influence on the world has been a net positive.

I think any reasonably honest view of history would have to conclude the US has been the most reasonable of empires we've yet seen. At the same time, a reasonably honest view of American Imperialism would have to have a pretty large chapter on the messed up things they've done.

We unfortunately wiped out many native Native Americans...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sebster wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
I think, as an American, that Americas influence on the world has been a net positive.

I think any reasonably honest view of history would have to conclude the US has been the most reasonable of empires we've yet seen. At the same time, a reasonably honest view of American Imperialism would have to have a pretty large chapter on the messed up things they've done.

I mean that's just how it is, when you have the power to feth with other people's countries you do some good things and some bad things. The answer isn't to pretend you'll just stop using that power, because that's never, ever going to happen. It couldn't, even if you wanted it to.

The answer is to is try and develop a mature way of dealing with that power, and trying as often as possible to go down paths that'll benefit all nations.

Other than being an extremely wealthy country, what power do we "really" have?

Yeah, we have a large military... but, look how long it takes us to address Iraq/Afganistan... in the end, was it really worth it? (imo, yes)

I think it stems from that fact that we're not in a World War 2 mindset... if we were, we would've bombed the enemies (and civies) to kindom come. Nowadays, it seems we're always walking on ice.

Personally, I'm hoping for some karmic payback. A disease that wipes out 90% of everyone but Native Americans and Irishmen. It's hellva unlikely, but I can dream.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Personally, I'm hoping for some karmic payback. A disease that wipes out 90% of everyone but Native Americans and Irishmen. It's hellva unlikely, but I can dream.

And this wins the stupid post of the day award.

 Amaya wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Personally, I'm hoping for some karmic payback. A disease that wipes out 90% of everyone but Native Americans and Irishmen. It's hellva unlikely, but I can dream.

And this wins the stupid post of the day award.

Well, everyone is talking about gak that will never happen, so I figured I'd just throw my two cents in that VITAS would be a good thing, and if the guys who wrote Shadowrun are right, it's just around the corner.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Personally, I'm hoping for some karmic payback. A disease that wipes out 90% of everyone but Native Americans and Irishmen. It's hellva unlikely, but I can dream.

Impossible...Human DNA only has cosmetic differences, which would make creating an American-only bioweapon impossible - while the genophage, while tempting (if only because it would make every pro-abortionist eat their words), would affect all Humans.

 Tadashi wrote:

Impossible...Human DNA only has cosmetic differences, which would make creating an American-only bioweapon impossible - while the genophage, while tempting (if only because it would make every pro-abortionist eat their words), would affect all Humans.

Actually you aim it at mitochondrial DNA, which is more consistent throughout genotypes.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

Impossible...Human DNA only has cosmetic differences, which would make creating an American-only bioweapon impossible - while the genophage, while tempting (if only because it would make every pro-abortionist eat their words), would affect all Humans.

Actually you aim it at mitochondrial DNA, which is more consistent throughout genotypes.

Yes...but it would still very risky, especially since it specifically targets Human DNA...a single mutation could end up wiping us all out. Compared to nuclear weapons, biological weapons pose a far higher threat.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Personally, I'm hoping for some karmic payback. A disease that wipes out 90% of everyone but Native Americans and Irishmen. It's hellva unlikely, but I can dream.

I really don't understand how that would benefit the world. I seriously doubt many "native americans" are equipped mentally, socially, or physically to return to a pre industrial society, let alone Irishmen. And I dare say, that that 10% of others who survived would still significantly outnumber the natives, and might take umbrage at their special survival rates. Plus, karma is total bs.

 Bromsy wrote:

I really don't understand how that would benefit the world. I seriously doubt many "native americans" are equipped mentally, socially, or physically to return to a pre industrial society, let alone Irishmen. And I dare say, that that 10% of others who survived would still significantly outnumber the natives, and might take umbrage at their special survival rates. Plus, karma is total bs.

I love the quotations, . And what do you mean 'return'? Have you seen some of the conditions they deal with out west? And why would Ireland return to a preindustrial society? (granted, they don't have vast natural resources, but they also don't have a staggering population.)

I'll point out another thing: that would men that, in North America, 31-40 million people would survive, spread out across the continent. However, Natives have thoughtfully been pushed together in large groups. Mind you, Mexico would probably just invade at that point, with South America being the new Super Power on the block...

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

I really don't understand how that would benefit the world. I seriously doubt many "native americans" are equipped mentally, socially, or physically to return to a pre industrial society, let alone Irishmen. And I dare say, that that 10% of others who survived would still significantly outnumber the natives, and might take umbrage at their special survival rates. Plus, karma is total bs.

I love the quotations, . And what do you mean 'return'? Have you seen some of the conditions they deal with out west? And why would Ireland return to a preindustrial society? (granted, they don't have vast natural resources, but they also don't have a staggering population.)

I'll point out another thing: that would men that, in North America, 31-40 million people would survive, spread out across the continent. However, Natives have thoughtfully been pushed together in large groups. Mind you, Mexico would probably just invade at that point, with South America being the new Super Power on the block...

Japan, China, and the two Koreas would start squabbling again. Oh, well...we'll make it work.