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Hey Guys.

Me and my buddies played a 6th edition game last week and a topic came up with blast weapons and cover. To my knowledge, cover for blasts is still handled like it was in 5th where you get a cover save if there is cover between you and the unit firing the blast.

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Here is a picture of the actual scenario:



A vindicator fired it's large blast ordinance cannon at my rhino. The blast template landed directly over head the rhino. I had 2 troops on the other side of the rhino meaning the rhino was between the space marines and the vindicator. My friends argued that they shouldn't get a cover save from this. I thought they should have as the rhino provided cover from the blast.

What do you guys think?

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Also just incase this happens I might as well clear it now then having to do this again later. Say the blast had scattered past the rhino. Would they still get cover even though the center of the blast has clear vision of them?



Thoughts about cover for the marines on scenario 2?

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Thanks

There are two sides to this (RAW anyway).
Side A says that you cannot allocate wounds to the unit if it its completely out of sight.
Side B (and how most play it) claim since you can wound the unit if out of sight, you can allocate wounds to them.

If you play that you can allocate wounds, you l check from the firing model (unless it is a barrage weapon), to determine the type of cover. In this case it would be firing throughanother unit.

Unless it was a barrage weapon, in both cases there would be cover.

IF there was no LOS from the Vindicator to the 2 marines, then its debated that the blast would not wound the marines.

Happy - you missed that in the first instance it was not a scattering blast, so no allowance to wound out of LOS

Im pretty sure the can't see can't wound rule is for shooting attacks with like personel guns. Picture A they get a 4 up cover , picture b no cover. See they are hit by the blast marker however a dude behind a solid wall that you cant see cant be killed theres no magic bullet here in 40k.

If ya dont believe thats the intention get a stick of dynamite, lay it on the roof of your car and stand next to the car car, hell lay down next to the car and if your not injured then your right im wrong.

Oh and I just read quote :' " can hit and wound units out of range and light of sight." pg 33 in brb under blast.

Lungpickle wrote:Im pretty sure the can't see can't wound rule is for shooting attacks with like personel guns. Picture A they get a 4 up cover , picture b no cover. See they are hit by the blast marker however a dude behind a solid wall that you cant see cant be killed theres no magic bullet here in 40k.

If ya dont believe thats the intention get a stick of dynamite, lay it on the roof of your car and stand next to the car car, hell lay down next to the car and if your not injured then your right im wrong.

\

It's more a question of the Rhino shielding the 2 behind from the blast since it comes from the front.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Happy - you missed that in the first instance it was not a scattering blast, so no allowance to wound out of LOS

Good catch. The rest of my statement still applies though.

So it is beneficial, and never detrimental, to scatter 0" instead of actually rolling a hit?

Can you say you have "scatttered" when your scattrer distance is 0 (or less than 0)?

Unless it was a barrage weapon, in both cases there would be cover.

But arent blast (barrage) cover saves taken from the center of the blast?
In the case of diagram B the hole is on one marine and there is nothing interveneing between it and the second marine?

isn't vindicators gun an ordinance attack? and don't they define ordinance blasts denying cover? (at work so no BRB nearby)

Vindicator's gun is ordinance, yes, but ordinance does not deny cover by default.

skyfi wrote:isn't vindicators gun an ordinance attack? and don't they define ordinance blasts denying cover? (at work so no BRB nearby)

Ordnance

No, Ordnance does NOT deny cover saves, by itself.

I had thought that they did, and someone told me they didn't, and upon checking the rules I thought we discovered that large/small blasts do not deny cover by default but ordinance did? Maybe I had a few too many beers, or sleep-filled nights since then but I coulda sworn... will have to read ordinance section of brb tonight!


edit:

more or less I thought there was 2 different types of large blast attacks... First being "large blast" which allowed cover, and second being "ordinance" which denied?

skyfi wrote:I had thought that they did, and someone told me they didn't, and upon checking the rules I thought we discovered that large/small blasts do not deny cover by default but ordinance did? Maybe I had a few too many beers, or sleep-filled nights since then but I coulda sworn... will have to read ordinance section of brb tonight!


edit:

more or less I thought there was 2 different types of large blast attacks... First being "large blast" which allowed cover, and second being "ordinance" which denied?

You're thinking of barrage. Ordnance just means that the (pg 51) model can't move (unless relentless) and can't snap shot the weapon. (pg 71) Vehicles can only snap shot other weapons if they fire ordnance but CAN move. Also they get 2d6 pick highest for Armor Pen. That's it.

skyfi wrote:I had thought that they did, and someone told me they didn't, and upon checking the rules I thought we discovered that large/small blasts do not deny cover by default but ordinance did? Maybe I had a few too many beers, or sleep-filled nights since then but I coulda sworn... will have to read ordinance section of brb tonight!


edit:

more or less I thought there was 2 different types of large blast attacks... First being "large blast" which allowed cover, and second being "ordinance" which denied?

Ordnance.

Ordnance does NOT DENY cover saves by default. Barrage means cover is determined from the hole int he blast, so is more likely to cause no cover, but again doesa NOT deny cover by default.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Can you say you have "scatttered" when your scattrer distance is 0 (or less than 0)?

Why not? You roll scatter, you just reduce that scatter to 0. It is still scatter.

Just like there is a difference between moving 0, and being stationary.

Ya, going off the word of the RAW, if it's not a "HIT!" indicator it is a scatter. I don't think anything in the rules says that if you reduce to 0 inch movement it counts as a HIT.

Vindicators do not fire Barrage weapons and therefore cover will be determined from the firer rather than the center of the blast.

I'm not seeing any pertinent distinction between HIT! and a 0" scatter. Neither of them are referred to as "not scattering" - indeed a blast is always referred to as being resolved "after scattering" even if the scatter is a HIT! or 0" and therefore no movement of the marker occurs. Strictly speaking you could say it scattered 0" on a hit, which might allow you hit the models behind even on a HIT!, if you buy the argument that by "out of line of sight" they're referring to any part of the template rather than just the center. (I'm a bit unclear on that myself now, opinions?)

Pyrian wrote:
Vindicators do not fire Barrage weapons and therefore cover will be determined from the firer rather than the center of the blast.

I'm not seeing any pertinent distinction between HIT! and a 0" scatter. Neither of them are referred to as "not scattering" - indeed a blast is always referred to as being resolved "after scattering" even if the scatter is a HIT! or 0" and therefore no movement of the marker occurs. Strictly speaking you could say it scattered 0" on a hit, which might allow you hit the models behind even on a HIT!, if you buy the argument that by "out of line of sight" they're referring to any part of the template rather than just the center. (I'm a bit unclear on that myself now, opinions?)

Vindicators have the Demolisher cannon which is Ord. 1 (Large Blast), Barrage. Per the BRB, Barrage rules state cover is determined as if the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker instead of from the firing model, scatter or no scatter is irrelevent. So in this instance, I'd say no cover save.

ClassicCarraway wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
Vindicators do not fire Barrage weapons and therefore cover will be determined from the firer rather than the center of the blast.

I'm not seeing any pertinent distinction between HIT! and a 0" scatter. Neither of them are referred to as "not scattering" - indeed a blast is always referred to as being resolved "after scattering" even if the scatter is a HIT! or 0" and therefore no movement of the marker occurs. Strictly speaking you could say it scattered 0" on a hit, which might allow you hit the models behind even on a HIT!, if you buy the argument that by "out of line of sight" they're referring to any part of the template rather than just the center. (I'm a bit unclear on that myself now, opinions?)

Vindicators have the Demolisher cannon which is Ord. 1 (Large Blast), Barrage. Per the BRB, Barrage rules state cover is determined as if the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker instead of from the firing model, scatter or no scatter is irrelevent. So in this instance, I'd say no cover save.

Except that they do not have Barrage. Which makes everything else you posted incorrect.

-Matt

ClassicCarraway wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
Vindicators do not fire Barrage weapons and therefore cover will be determined from the firer rather than the center of the blast.

I'm not seeing any pertinent distinction between HIT! and a 0" scatter. Neither of them are referred to as "not scattering" - indeed a blast is always referred to as being resolved "after scattering" even if the scatter is a HIT! or 0" and therefore no movement of the marker occurs. Strictly speaking you could say it scattered 0" on a hit, which might allow you hit the models behind even on a HIT!, if you buy the argument that by "out of line of sight" they're referring to any part of the template rather than just the center. (I'm a bit unclear on that myself now, opinions?)

Vindicators have the Demolisher cannon which is Ord. 1 (Large Blast), Barrage. Per the BRB, Barrage rules state cover is determined as if the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker instead of from the firing model, scatter or no scatter is irrelevent. So in this instance, I'd say no cover save.

Check out the SM errata in trhe FAQ - the Vindicator is NOT barrage

HawaiiMatt wrote:

ClassicCarraway wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
Vindicators do not fire Barrage weapons and therefore cover will be determined from the firer rather than the center of the blast.

I'm not seeing any pertinent distinction between HIT! and a 0" scatter. Neither of them are referred to as "not scattering" - indeed a blast is always referred to as being resolved "after scattering" even if the scatter is a HIT! or 0" and therefore no movement of the marker occurs. Strictly speaking you could say it scattered 0" on a hit, which might allow you hit the models behind even on a HIT!, if you buy the argument that by "out of line of sight" they're referring to any part of the template rather than just the center. (I'm a bit unclear on that myself now, opinions?)

Vindicators have the Demolisher cannon which is Ord. 1 (Large Blast), Barrage. Per the BRB, Barrage rules state cover is determined as if the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker instead of from the firing model, scatter or no scatter is irrelevent. So in this instance, I'd say no cover save.

Except that they do not have Barrage. Which makes everything else you posted incorrect.

-Matt

My apologies, the version of the C:SM I have has Barrage listed under Demolisher cannon entry in the weapons summary, but I see that the main Vindicator entry doesn't. So disregard my comment.

brb p.23 center column last para.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, brb p.6 right column 5th bullet(period thing).

i know this is a old post but i ran across this looking for "can you get cover saves from blast". seeing from all the comments i know now that i can get cover from blast. thanks all


but seeing the content an action of this post i will tell say what i think of the situation "mainly on how people i know play too at some gaming stores"

if you place your blast maker over a vehicle an it is covering a couple models on the other side "out of LoS" or is scatters an is over some models behind the vehicle "out of LoS", no matter what it still hits those models because they are still under the blast template. people saying it dont hit em because you cant see em sounds silly bcuz you got to think down to that gaming an actual views. say a real tank shoots at another tank, the shot misses but expload near the tank or it clips the the tank just because the tank didnt see that their was a small group of men behind it doesnt mean the exploation an shrapnel of the shell hitting near the tank didnt hit those men behind the tank, like say the angle of the tanks cannon was too high an the shell goes over the targeted tank an exploads behind it, well those men behind the take should be hit bcuz the shell still exploaded near them. seems odd to put it as a example in a real life term but its true. but when you put in it 40k terms of how me and other people play. "you do hit the models bcuz they are under the blast template" and "yes they do get a cover save because they are behind the tank". i know its seems odd but i saw a few youtube vids of this and the people had this very question an they say its legit hit but with armour saves.depending on what type of vehicle they are behind depends on the cover save. Fritz 40k "guy from youtube" did this and said its legit, and most people that play 40k prob know of Fritz 40k an prob have watched a few of his vids already. depend on the what type of vehicle it is depends on what kind of cover save i will get from a blast template. you might get a 3+ cover save from a heavy large tank to maybe a 4-5+ cover save from say a open top transport vehicle "just example, just depends how you want to play and who you play against".

that is just my input hope it helps an gets yall thinkin on how i put it

What is it with all the necromancy these days?
I am getting tired of running away from zombie threads....

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Thanks!