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Happyjew wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Assuming we meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule of the weapon, we may.

Last I checked, Necrons have no Psykers, ergo no Warp Charges. Therefore Necrons do not meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule.

And Grey Knight Vehicles, have no warp charge either, and cast their psychic powers just fine, apparently.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Assuming we meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule of the weapon, we may.

Last I checked, Necrons have no Psykers, ergo no Warp Charges. Therefore Necrons do not meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule.

And Grey Knight Vehicles, have no warp charge either, and cast their psychic powers just fine, apparently.

There are two ways of reading the psychic pilot rule as written in C:GK.

Method 1: (treated as being a psyker (mastery level X) and Leadership X) for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods.
Method 2: treated as being a psyker (mastery level X) and (Leadership X for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods).

By the second reading they are always psykers; but Leadership X only for the given situations. By the first reading, they are only psykers for the listed reasons.

I side with the no force activation position.

MSS uses all the special abilities of a weapon, like a power axe or power fist. Doesn't say anything about psykers activating psychic powers, introducing perils of the warp and other stuff is far outside the scope of what MSS permits you to do.

Permissive rule set indeed and nothing is permitting using a psyker's powers in the MSS rule.

And yet we have access to the Force Special Rule on the weapon. Do we not?
What does the rules for Force Weapons tell us to do?

Again, we have been given permission to any Special Rules on weapons only. Your weapons Special Rule tells us to use a charge. The MSS model can make the model/unit use a charge as once again, it was given permission by the Special Rule of the weapon. To say otherwise is to break the rules for MSS.

Kevlar wrote:I side with the no force activation position.

MSS uses all the special abilities of a weapon, like a power axe or power fist. Doesn't say anything about psykers activating psychic powers, introducing perils of the warp and other stuff is far outside the scope of what MSS permits you to do.

Permissive rule set indeed and nothing is permitting using a psyker's powers in the MSS rule.

It's not a psychic power. Please, please, please stop referring to "Force" as a psychic power. It is a USR that is held by the weapon. The proof is that no psyker has access to this power without carrying a Force Weapon. Further proof is that it is listed in the weapon stats, and not the model stats.

Therefor, if it is a weapon ability, the MSS get to determine whether or not to use it. And that means, if there is a warp charge left to tap into, then the weapon can use the Force ability.

There seems to be a mistaken idea floating around here about what Mindshackle Scarabs actually *do*. The victim (the model temporarily controlled by the MSS) is the one causing automatic hits on his own unit. Its just that these hits benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons, which the controller of the Mindshackle Scarabs gets to choose which.

Now this has changed a bit from 5th to 6th edition, but the 'force' special rule is now very, very clearly a special rule that the WEAPON has. So again, the 'Force' special rule listed below is entirely a special rule provided by the weapon not a special rule generated from the model itself.

So again, here is the full text for the 'FORCE' weapon special rule:

FORCE
If a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). IF the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force Weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons.

Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or model that do not have a Wounds characteristic.

So given that the above is an ability of the weapon the Mindshackle controller can absolutely choose to utilize that ability. By choosing to utilize the ability, the psyker must expend a Warp Charge (if he has one) and take a psychic test in order to activate the ability that the Mindshackle player has chosen to utilize.

 yakface wrote:

There seems to be a mistaken idea floating around here about what Mindshackle Scarabs actually *do*. The victim (the model temporarily controlled by the MSS) is the one causing automatic hits on his own unit. Its just that these hits benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons, which the controller of the Mindshackle Scarabs gets to choose which.

Now this has changed a bit from 5th to 6th edition, but the 'force' special rule is now very, very clearly a special rule that the WEAPON has. So again, the 'Force' special rule listed below is entirely a special rule provided by the weapon not a special rule generated from the model itself.

So again, here is the full text for the 'FORCE' weapon special rule:

FORCE
If a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). IF the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force Weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons.

Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or model that do not have a Wounds characteristic.

So given that the above is an ability of the weapon the Mindshackle controller can absolutely choose to utilize that ability. By choosing to utilize the ability, the psyker must expend a Warp Charge (if he has one) and take a psychic test in order to activate the ability that the Mindshackle player has chosen to utilize.

Weapon doesn't have warp charge or leadership, that's model special rules. Weapon lets you use warp charges in combat, but it isn't the weapon that's causing the ID, its the model. Its not that I don't understand the rule or its changes in 6e, its that I really do disagree with your interpretation of where the model is separate from its weapon.

 Lobukia wrote:

Weapon doesn't have warp charge or leadership, that's model special rules. Weapon lets you use warp charges in combat, but it isn't the weapon that's causing the ID, its the model. Its not that I don't understand the rule or its changes in 6e, its that I really do disagree with your interpretation of where the model is separate from its weapon.

But again, if a weapon's ability say, did a wound to its bearer in return for making it AP1 or something like that, would we still be having this conversation?

We all agree that it is the MODEL that has the warp charge and must take the psychic test, but the point is that the Mindshackle player gets to choose which abilities of the weapon to use and the force ability is an ability of the weapon. However choosing to use that ability means that the bearer has to expend the warp charge and take a psychic test in order to make that ability function.

Because basically what you're saying is that if a weapon ability has any preconditions at all in order to make that ability function, then suddenly that ability is no longer something that can be accessed by Mindshackle Scarabs despite what the MSS rules actually say.

By your logic then, your model with the weapon could never activate its Force Special Rule on the account that the weapon calls for model to expend a charge which is impossible because with your version of the Permissive Rule set, the weapon isnt given permission to do so.


So, which is it? Permission granted, or permission denied?

Weapons don't have an inherent STR. So I guess since that's model based they're low/zero STR hits.

It's the weapon causing ID. In 5th it was iffy but I sided with the no-ID crowd. In 6th the ID is clearly a weapon ability and therefore can be used during MSS.

Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity, who inflicts the wounds, the model with the Force weapon, or the model with MSS?

If it's the MSS model, then you cannot utilise the Force rule, as you are not a psyker. If it's the psyker, her [the psyker] gets to choose whether or not to activate.

Per the MSS rule it is the affected model that is inflicting the wounds. It is the MSS model that is choosing what, if any, abilities of the weapon that the affected model must use.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Assuming we meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule of the weapon, we may.

Last I checked, Necrons have no Psykers, ergo no Warp Charges. Therefore Necrons do not meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule.

This strikes me as a misrepresentation of how MSS actually works on the affected model. MSS forces the affected model to strike his own unit. In addition it gives the 'cron player permission to invoke any ability that the weapon may have on behalf of the affected model.

-Yad

The core issue is where in permission begins and ends.

- The Overlord uses MSS on a Librarian, etc.
- Librarian, etc. fails MSS and strikes himself 2 times in a challenge.
- Fails his 4+ Inv
- Since all unsaved wounds would then trigger the USR of the weapon, the Librarian has to take a psychic test to determine if he dies or not.

You either get the whole rule or you don't get it at all. Why would you only get half of a rule?

 Great Deceiver wrote:
The core issue is where in permission begins and ends.

- The Overlord uses MSS on a Librarian, etc.
- Librarian, etc. fails MSS and strikes himself 2 times in a challenge.
- Fails his 4+ Inv
- Since all unsaved wounds would then trigger the USR of the weapon, the Librarian has to take a psychic test to determine if he dies or not.

You either get the whole rule or you don't get it at all. Why would you only get half of a rule?

It's question of how two, separate rules interact.
For example, lets say I have Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with Nemesis Daemon Hammer that has not been upgraded to a Psyker.
Now, NDH still retains its "Force" USR and Inquisitor can "benefit from any bilities and penalties" NDH gives him. Problem is, because he cannot expend Warp Charges, he can't actually "activate" the Force weapon, even though he has the USR.

Argument for disallowing MSS to activate Force Weapon is basically same why Inquisitor can't activate his Force weapon: MSS does not allow Necron player to expend Warp Charges from the affected model and therefore, the Force Weapon can not be activated. Note that RAW this does mean that the hits still benefit from Force USR.
Personally, I'm not 100% sure which way it should be ruled, RAW or RAI.

(Now in 5e, it was clear cut thing: RAW you couldn't use MSS to activate Force Weapons, though some Necron players tried to argue otherwise to boost their army)
Edit: To be fair, as Rigeld pointed out, if one hadn't read Force Weapons rules in 5e diligently, one could have easily come to conclusion that MSS would have allowed Force Weapon activation in 5e and so me attributing malice to that interpretation was unfair.
Obviously if Necron player knew about the 'controversy' about it, then it's completely different thing.

Luide wrote:
For example, lets say I have Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with Nemesis Daemon Hammer that has not been upgraded to a Psyker.
Now, NDH still retains its "Force" USR and Inquisitor can "benefit from any bilities and penalties" NDH gives him. Problem is, because he cannot expend Warp Charges, he can't actually "activate" the Force weapon, even though he has the USR.

Correct. "Force" allows you to expend a Warp Charge and make the test, but since there's no charge to expend it can't be done.

Argument for disallowing MSS to activate Force Weapon is basically same: MSS does not allow Necron player to expend Warp Charges from the affected model and therefore, the Force Weapon can not be activated. Note that RAW this does mean that the hits still benefit from Force USR.

The Necron player isn't choosing to spend a Warp Charge therefore activating Force - he's choosing to activate Force which expends a Charge and forces the test.

(Now in 5e, it was clear cut thing: RAW you couldn't use MSS to activate Force Weapons, though some Necron players tried to argue otherwise to boost their army)

Please don't try to assign malice or greed where there's no basis for it. I try not to assign bias to either side of an argument unless it's obvious. Some people genuinely read the rules that way.

Luide wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Argument for disallowing MSS to activate Force Weapon is basically same: MSS does not allow Necron player to expend Warp Charges from the affected model and therefore, the Force Weapon can not be activated. Note that RAW this does mean that the hits still benefit from Force USR.

The Necron player isn't choosing to spend a Warp Charge therefore activating Force - he's choosing to activate Force which expends a Charge and forces the test.

Yeah, like I said, it's not what I'd call "clear cut" argument. I'm falling more to the "MSS allows activating Force Weapons" camp more and more.

rigeld2 wrote:

Please don't try to assign malice or greed where there's no basis for it. I try not to assign bias to either side of an argument unless it's obvious. Some people genuinely read the rules that way.

You're of course correct in this. I've edited my original message to reflect this.

This basically comes down to a paradigm- does the psycker 'push' a warp charge into the weapon, or does the weapon 'pull' a warp charge from the psyker.

I say the latter, and the reasoning has been simply laid out by Yakface, plain as day: the reason the warp charge is being used is because the USR, owned by the weapon, requires it. That means it is the weapon that is the originator of the need to use the warp charge, therefore the weapon is 'pulling' the warp charge from the psyker (where there is a charge to be pulled). Because the weapon is under the control of the MSS, then the Necron player makes this decision.

 DeathReaper wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.

I do believe that a MSS'd psyker wouldnt choose to stab himself either, its why hes... mind... shackled...by a scarab

However, I do agree that the weapon has no quality to actually cause ID, unless the psyker has a warp charge to expend. If the psyker DOES indeed have one available, then my ruling is the MSS can cause the psyker to empower the weapon.

Fluff is not rules.

Being "mind... shackled...by a scarab" only produces the effects the rules say it produces and nothing more. this is because this is a permissive ruleset.

The MSS have no ability to expend a warp charge. The Psyker does have the ability, but even if he has been effected by the MSS he still can choose to not use the warp charge.

Does it say he can use a warp charge instead of a Psyker? If not then he can not, it is as simple as that.

I know, that was my point XD But anyways, am I misunderstanding the brotherhood of psyker/sorcerers rule in the BRB? I thought the unit collectively was a ML 1 psyker

If the Psyker is being under the control of the MSS, and is able to use any abilities of the weapon, which Force is, The Necron player can expend a warp charge if there is one available to be used.

The Psyker is not under the control of his normal owner, The Necron Player at that stage is the owner. Otherwise they wouldn't include "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.

I do believe that a MSS'd psyker wouldnt choose to stab himself either, its why hes... mind... shackled...by a scarab

However, I do agree that the weapon has no quality to actually cause ID, unless the psyker has a warp charge to expend. If the psyker DOES indeed have one available, then my ruling is the MSS can cause the psyker to empower the weapon.

Fluff is not rules.

Being "mind... shackled...by a scarab" only produces the effects the rules say it produces and nothing more. this is because this is a permissive ruleset.

The MSS have no ability to expend a warp charge. The Psyker does have the ability, but even if he has been effected by the MSS he still can choose to not use the warp charge.

Does it say he can use a warp charge instead of a Psyker? If not then he can not, it is as simple as that.

I know, that was my point XD But anyways, am I misunderstanding the brotherhood of psyker/sorcerers rule in the BRB? I thought the unit collectively was a ML 1 psyker[

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.

I do believe that a MSS'd psyker wouldnt choose to stab himself either, its why hes... mind... shackled...by a scarab

However, I do agree that the weapon has no quality to actually cause ID, unless the psyker has a warp charge to expend. If the psyker DOES indeed have one available, then my ruling is the MSS can cause the psyker to empower the weapon.

Fluff is not rules.

Being "mind... shackled...by a scarab" only produces the effects the rules say it produces and nothing more. this is because this is a permissive ruleset.

The effect being that the 'cron player can choose to use any ability of the CC weapons carried by the affected model (paraphrasing a bit here but I think we can agree on that ) Yes?

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
The MSS have no ability to expend a warp charge. The Psyker does have the ability, but even if he has been effected by the MSS he still can choose to not use the warp charge.

I agree with you that the MSS rule does not allow the 'cron player to expend a warp charge that the affected model may have. But you're wrong if you think that that is what MSS is doing when it affects a psyker bearing a weapon with the Force USR. All MSS does (in this scenario) is allow the 'cron player to have the affected model use the Force ability of the weapon. Once you can accept that, you ought to be able to see that the only way the affected model can use the Force ability of the weapon is to expend a charge and take a psychic test.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Does it say he can use a warp charge instead of a Psyker? If not then he can not, it is as simple as that.

It's not that the MSS is making the affected psyker expend a charge and take a psychic test, it's the Force ability of the weapon that is making the psyker expend a charge and take a psychic test. There is no 'choice' for the psyker to make. The Force USR requires the expenditure of a charge and a successful psychic test in order to activate it.

-Yad

Yad what makes you think the Necron player can't expend the force charge?

Looking at the rules, as it states the Necron Player is in control of the Psyker, how can they not have the ability to use the Force Charge if one is available?

Thimn wrote:
Yad what makes you think the Necron player can't expend the force charge?

Looking at the rules, as it states the Necron Player is in control of the Psyker, how can they not have the ability to use the Force Charge if one is available?

Because they're in control of the model only in very, very specific ways (those listed). So the controlling Necron player can't make the controlled model do anything that isn't explicitly granted by the rules.

However, choosing which weapon abilities to use is one of those choices and choosing to use the 'Force' weapon special rule does mean the psyker has to expend a warp charge and take a psychic test in order to utilize this special rule at the Necron player's command.

Thimn wrote:
Yad what makes you think the Necron player can't expend the force charge?

Looking at the rules, as it states the Necron Player is in control of the Psyker, how can they not have the ability to use the Force Charge if one is available?

Because all the Necron player is doing in this scenario is invoking the Force ability of the weapon. It's the Force rule that then requires the psyker to expend a charge and take a psychic test. It may seem like splitting hairs, but this is my answer to the folks who are claiming that the reason they are saying no in the poll is because they think MSS can't directly force the psyker to expend a charge.

-Yad

edit: ninja'd by Yakface

Because they're in control of the model only in very, very specific ways (those listed). So the controlling Necron player can't make the controlled model do anything that isn't explicitly granted by the rules.

However, choosing which weapon abilities to use is one of those choices and choosing to use the 'Force' weapon special rule does mean the psyker has to expend a warp charge and take a psychic test in order to utilize this special rule at the Necron player's command.

Ahh I see what you mean.

A player gets to choose to activate an ability or not. The loss of a warp charge and the leadership test are the obligatory actions after an ability is activated.

In the case of MSS the force ability of the weapon is activated like any other weapon ability. The player has to make the obligatory actions. He has no choice on this. But as some have said before me, just expend the warp charge on another ability.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Fluff is not rules.

Try not misquoting me please.

Thanks

I can't believe how either stupid, or stubborn, some people are, refusing to read anything they don't want to be the case.

MSS gives you PERMISSION to use the abilities of the weapon in question.
FORCE is an ABILITY of the force weapon.
FORCE tells you to expend a warp charge.
MSS gives you PERMISSION to use FORCE>to expend a warp charge.

I really don't see how you can just shut your eyes, and shake your head saying 'nopermissionnopermissionnopermissionnopermission'

JBrehaut wrote:I can't believe how either stupid, or stubborn, some people are, refusing to read anything they don't want to be the case.

MSS gives you PERMISSION to use the abilities of the weapon in question.
FORCE is an ABILITY of the force weapon.
FORCE tells you to expend a warp charge.
MSS gives you PERMISSION to use FORCE>to expend a warp charge.

I really don't see how you can just shut your eyes, and shake your head saying 'nopermissionnopermissionnopermissionnopermission'

Because many people are still in the 5th Ed. mindset, where the rules really could be interpreted either way, as "Force" was not a USR of the weapon.

However, in 6th Ed., ther eis absolutely no doubt. You've laid it out exactly right.

 azazel the cat wrote:

JBrehaut wrote:I can't believe how either stupid, or stubborn, some people are, refusing to read anything they don't want to be the case.

MSS gives you PERMISSION to use the abilities of the weapon in question.
FORCE is an ABILITY of the force weapon.
FORCE tells you to expend a warp charge.
MSS gives you PERMISSION to use FORCE>to expend a warp charge.

I really don't see how you can just shut your eyes, and shake your head saying 'nopermissionnopermissionnopermissionnopermission'

Because many people are still in the 5th Ed. mindset, where the rules really could be interpreted either way, as "Force" was not a USR of the weapon.

However, in 6th Ed., ther eis absolutely no doubt. You've laid it out exactly right.

Right you have permission to use Force. I wound a model with my Force Weapon. You decide to invoke the Force USR. You are then required to usea Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test. You do not have any Warp Charges. You cannot activate the Force property. If GW changes this that's all well and good, seeing as how I don't have any Force Weapons, nor do I play against any Necrons.

Read the Force rule again. It uses the warp charge of the psyker that bears the force weapon.