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 Neorealist wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Neo - I would argue that control is not "less than well defined" - the elements of control are rigidly defined by the MSS rule

Choosing to activate a force weapon is NOT within that delegated control.

Yes, and i respect your dedication to your opinion. That said I'd definately argue that fulfilling the requirement for access to 'any' of the weapons' properties renders it not as 'cut-and-dried' as you'd indicated.

In other words it's just as easy to say rules-wise that you can choose to activate a force weapon because you have control of every one of the weapons' abilities (ipso facto are in control of the model for this purpose) as it is to say you cannot choose to activate a force weapon because you are not the psyker's owning player.

Both are legitimate positions with rules-support that has already been brought forth no?

We could put it like this if you wish:

If a psychic power or ability would make a model able to make a shooting attack at any target, it would still have to meet the requirements in the BRB for LOS and range and so on, unless specifically stated that it overrides just that. Just because the wording says shoot at any target doesn't mean that you could break fundamental rules and just ignore them. I would not let anyone make any codex > BRB unless it is specifically and clearly stated and there's no room for argument. If there's a valid room for argument, then we need a faq update, right?

Since almost 50% in the poll believes that MSS is able to do as you wish I also reckon the need of a faq update to the MSS rule, even though I believe it to work they way I have argued for this entire thread.

I agree completely; it does need a much less ambiguous FAQ update and opinions are pretty well split down the middle on which side it should land on too. Despite that I hold true to my interpretation much as I have since I first posted.

Xzerios wrote:

Yad wrote:Perhaps I wasn't clear enough here. I'm establishing what the pre-conditions would be to be able to use the Force USR

No problem good sir, I follow you there. :3

Yad wrote:You've twisted you statement here a bit. You start by saying that you have a decision to be made regarding whether or not to activate Force. You finish by saying that you can't choose to spend a charge and take a test. These are two different things. The MSS player cannot directly choose to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test on behalf of the affected model. The MSS can choose to activate Force. The Force rule then requires the model to spend a charge and take a test.

Your point only comes out at the end here on this one. Im not going to point out the logical falicy with a Decision and Choice not being the same thing at the start here.

Again, perhaps I wasn't being clear here. I wasn't saying that a 'decision' is different from a 'choice'. I was pointing out that it appeared to me that you were initially focused on the decision to activate the Force USR. Near the end of your post you appeared to switch to a choice about spending the charge.

Xzerios wrote:
The last bit here is what concerns me with the point your making. Your stating that Force as its written "forces" this test. Reread the rule. It states that the point is spent and test made if the Psyker chooses. If you can tell me that the rule reads that this charge must be used, and the ensuing test (that will) be taken are a mandatory (no choice) thing. I want your BRB cause thats not what mine says or in English. Again, the very first sentence of the rule states that a choice can be made. The rule once more:

Pg 27 BRB, first line of Force wrote:
if a Psyker inflicts on or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).

The underlined portion is what the Necron player is unable to do. Not just because they are not the psyker model, but once again, page eights rule comes back and states that if a rule calls for the model to make a choice, its the owning players model and they are the ones who make the choice. This choice lies outside what MSS has given you permission to dictate. Its outlined boundries that its confined to (and trumps page eight) is the Strength, Initiative (due in part to resolving swings in the Fight Sub-phase), Weapons, and lastly, Special rules on those weapons.

Couple things here. First, I'm not sure how you can quote the rule and still think that once you've chosen to activate force you can't be forced to spend a charge and take a test. The psyker has no choice regarding whether or not to spend the point. The choice the psyker faces is whether or not to activate Force when he scores a number of unsaved wounds with is weapon that has the Force USR.

Second, you're slightly mistaken in your reading of the pg.8 rule (Controlling Player vs Opposing Player). It's not Owning Player vs. Opposing Player. So your sentence should really read, "if a rule calls for the model to make a choice, it's the Controlling Player's model and they are the ones who make the choice". In the CP vs. OP rule the Controlling Player is clarified as being the one who owns the model (bought it as part of his army). MSS messes with this notion however. It transfers the title of Controlling Player to the Necron player.

For folks who are claiming that it doesn't say 'full control' so it can't happen are missing that there is no game term/mechanic called 'full control'. It's a notion that is of their own invention. There is however a very clear definition of what a Controlling Player is and can do. So unless the MSS rule curtails what is meant by Controlling Player, one should accept it for what it is.

Xzerios wrote:
To demonstrate this as it works;

You declare your using Force (as you have permission to do). We now move to the rule to resolve it and the models owner gets to make the decision and that can be yes, or no.

I've got to stop you right here. You appear to have accepted that the Necron player has permission to declare that Force is being used. Per the MSS rules this would satisfy the ...he can immediately choose to activate it... How does he activate it? Back to the Force rule, "...by expending a warp charge and taking a psychic test." There is no second choice to spend a charge and take a test. The only choice is whether or not to use Force.

Xzerios wrote:

Yad wrote:Close. You (the Necron player) are considered the Controlling Player first and foremost. Second to that you are only provided the power to choose which weapon the affected model may wield. Should an ability of that weapon require a decision to be made, you as the Controlling Player may do so. Why? Because it's a matter of inheritance (if you're familiar with programming ) As the Controlling Player you are allowed to make decisions and take actions for the models you control.

Yes, MSS only allows you to choose the weapon to be used. It also allows you to use any ability that the weapon may have. That permission right there directly correlates to how the Controlling Player can make decisions and take actions for the model.

You (the Necron player) have control over the model with the outlined parameters that MSS has outlined. Full control is not listed within the rule for MSS and you can not assume so because it was given permissions to a few items. To do so is a leap of faith and breaks the rules. Programing has no sway over this discussion Yad, use the rules and argue your point with the BRB and proper English. I agree with the last statement here. Ive outlined just above why your not allowed to resolve Force with MSS. It simply does not allow you to make that decision to spend the point, ect. You can declare your using the rule for each unsaved wound, but the end result will be the owner saying "No, no, and no for that last attack".

I was simply referencing the concept of inheritance as used in programming in an attempt to better explain why, as the Controlling Player, you would be in a position to make a decision on behalf of the affected model. Sorry if the analogy was not clear enough. In addition, I would caution you about making comments regarding the proper use of English. You may want to proof your post before you make that comment again.

Xzerios wrote:

Yad wrote:I think you're wrong here. As the MSS rules explicitly say you must return control to the owning player it ties in directly to pg.8.

Sure does, You still have been trumping this rule for the majority of the phase due to Codex vs BRB. MSS is very explicit that the model returns to the owner at the end otherwise its status each Fight Sub-phase would remain under the MSS control. This doesnt conflict with that rule in any way.

Slight corrections. It's not a case of Codex vs. BRB. It's an Advanced Rule vs. Basic. MSS is very explicit that control of the model returns to the owner. I'm not sure what you mean by, "this doesn't conflict with that rule in any way".

Xzerios wrote:
I also know the Pro-side is going to try to take my first point apart as the will feel that theres a flaw to it. There isnt. I have covered my point that way for proper English' sake. Choosing to use the rule does not arbitrarily force the rule to automatically resolve. Nor in the fashion they are describing. Lastly, to state at any point within this discussion that the Necron player is in full control of the model if MSS is resolved successfully is incorrect. It would have stated that within its own wording of the rule.
It has not, therefore, you may not.

I really, really don't get how you can maintain that, "choosing to use the rule does not arbitrarily force the rule to automatically resolve". First, what does that even mean. And second, how is it even possible to choose to use a rule and not have it resolve. Every action has a resolution. There's always an endpoint.

-Yad

MSS messes with this notion however. It transfers the title of Controlling Player to the Necron player.

This is what Ive been focusing the whole time here (control of the model). This is incorrect. You need to prove that MSS gave you permission (fully take over the model (no such rule exists!) which will trump page 8) to decide on the second decision that Force calls for. It doesnt give you that permission and as such, you declare Force, the owner chooses no to activating. If you are not seeing the choice within the rule, you need to brush up on your English as it simply something I cannot help you with.

If you think page eights Controlling Player vs Opposing Player has no part in this situation, you are mistaken. Your only claim that its trumping this whole rule is the last part of MSS that states that control of the model returns to the owner. What was controlled again? S, I, weapon(s), and Special rules. Those return to the player. This is the logical loop hole that you are caught in, and the majority is on forcing the Psyker to expend and test. -Reread the rule- Does it not state within its own rule that a choice is to be made? At the first unsaved wound? Thats right, choose to expend a charge and test. This is the part that MSS cant do. No permission. Zero. You may not make this decision written within the confines of the rule, only the choice to use it and in this Special rules case, it calls for yet another choice that sadly MSS doesnt have jurisdiction on. You can use Force as MSS does give you permission to do. But when this second decision takes place, page eight tells 'MSS that your influence is over, rule has been invoked, owner make a decision.'

Thats how these rules break down and interact with each other. If you do not read it that way, You are incorrect.


One last thing there, I type in a very particular format. Aloof. My grammar is not correct, but Ill be damned if my English grasp isnt. If you dont understand the statement, see above.

Xzerios wrote:What was controlled again? S, I, weapon(s), and Special rules

The special rule of the force weapon forces a warp point expenditure and a leadership check once the decision has been made to activate the weapon and the only choice offered is wether or not to activate the weapon in first place. I believe i conclusively proved this around page 2 of this thread.

If the necron player can and does decide to activate the weapon, the psyker's player 'has' to spend the warp charge (if the psyker has one) and make a leadership check.

 Neorealist wrote:

Xzerios wrote:What was controlled again? S, I, weapon(s), and Special rules

The special rule of the force weapon forces a warp point expenditure and a leadership check once the decision has been made to activate the weapon.

If the necron player can and does decide to activate the weapon, the psyker's player 'has' to decide to spend the warp charge (if the psyker has one) and make a leadership check.

I fixed your statement so it functions correctly as the rules for Force tell you what to do. :3

and the only choice offered is wether or not to activate the weapon in first place. I believe i conclusively proved this around page 2 of this thread.

To your edit here, you read the rule incorrectly. Tell me why does the rule request another decision after you have decided to use the rule. Go check out any other Special rule that gets tied into the weapon. Youll find that those rules are worded that there is no choice within it. The only one that comes up is the Skyfire Special rule. Yet, even as that is written, the models owner still gets to make the choice to fire as Skyfire or not as once again, it too is worded that the choice to use it falls back to the owner of the model per Controlling Player vs Opposing Player. Though, this whole point with Skyfire is moot as its a rule thats only interactions will arise in a shooting attack.

Unfortunately your edit is incorrect. To dredge up the force USR again:
"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test..."

You tell me where the single available choice is made as part of the logical parsing of this ability? (hint: it's the part where it states the word 'choose'.) You'll note that after the psyker (or whomever, such as the Necron player if applicable) 'chooses' to activate it, he or she is not offered the additional choice of spending a warp charge and/or take a Psychic test, he or she is 'required' to expend a warp charge and take a Psychic test. it's an important distinction.

Edit: To answer your other question? because they likely wanted the psyker to have a choice in wether or not to activate the Force USR, not just have his warp charges syphoned off each time he hit something. Also correlation does not imply causation. (in other words other USRs offering (or not) an optional choice is not relevant to this discussion.)

Neo, your reading the rule incorrectly then.

Force is a Special rule on the weapon, it has a trigger condition: Unsaved Wound.
What is the event? Choose to expend a point and test.
Pass and ID is applied to the weapon.
This is what the rule does.

You have access to the rule, which works for the Necron up till the event. MSS may force a model to make this choice for each Unsaved Wound. In the end though, MSS' control ends as this choice is once again outside what you are able to dictate. Owner choices whether to expend and test, not MSS. Again, owner does, not MSS. This is how the rules for MSS, Controlling Player vs Opposing Player, and Force work with each other. :|

I'd disagree. The way i read the Force USR to work is as follows

Precondition: Unsaved Wound (Yes/No)?

(Yes)
Choice: Activate Weapon (Yes2/No)?

(Yes2)
Mandatory Action: Spend a Warp Charge if available. (if unavailable, go to No)
Mandatory Action: Take Psychic Test (if failed, go to No, if Perils, follow rules for such)
(if passed 'and' warp charge spent, go to Yes3)

(No)
Result: Do Nothing.

(Yes3)
Result: Activate Instant Death

Xzerios wrote:

Yad wrote: MSS messes with this notion however. It transfers the title of Controlling Player to the Necron player.

This is what Ive been focusing the whole time here (control of the model). This is incorrect. You need to prove that MSS gave you permission (fully take over the model (no such rule exists!) which will trump page 8) to decide on the second decision that Force calls for. It doesnt give you that permission and as such, you declare Force, the owner chooses no to activating. If you are not seeing the choice within the rule, you need to brush up on your English as it simply something I cannot help you with.

The MSS rule tells the Necron player to return control of the affected model to the owning player. The inverse of that is that the Necron player has control of the affected model. The only part of the BRB that speaks to control of a model is on page eight.

And you're still swinging away at this notion of a second choice regarding the cost to activate Force. Spending a warp charge and taking a test is the cost of using the Force USR. A cost you must pay if you decide to use (activate) it. You can't decouple the two. In fact, can you show me where, in the Force USR, you are allowed to activate Force yet not pay the warp charge and take the test (assuming the psyker has a warp charge to spend obviously)?

Xzerios wrote:
If you think page eights Controlling Player vs Opposing Player has no part in this situation, you are mistaken.

Xzerios wrote:
Your only claim that its trumping this whole rule is the last part of MSS that states that control of the model returns to the owner. What was controlled again?

The affected model. How is it conrolled? The MSS rule provides access to the model's:

Xzerios wrote:
S, I, weapon(s), and Special rules.

Xzerios wrote:
Those return to the player.

That is not what is says in the MSS rule. Control of the model, if he is still 'alive', is returned to the owning player.

Xzerios wrote:
This is the logical loop hole that you are caught in, and the majority is on forcing the Psyker to expend and test. -Reread the rule- Does it not state within its own rule that a choice is to be made? At the first unsaved wound? Thats right, choose to expend a charge and test. This is the part that MSS cant do. No permission. Zero. You may not make this decision written within the confines of the rule, only the choice to use it and in this Special rules case, it calls for yet another choice that sadly MSS doesnt have jurisdiction on. You can use Force as MSS does give you permission to do. But when this second decision takes place, page eight tells 'MSS that your influence is over, rule has been invoked, owner make a decision.'

Yes, the Force USR does say that there is a choice to made. That choice is whether or not to activate it. And it doesn't say, "at the first unsaved wound". It's when one or more unsaved wounds are caused. Again, your supposition that the bearer of the Force weapon (with the Force USR) can somehow choose to activate Force and then choose not to pay the warp charge and take a test, is ludicrous. This is just bizarre...

Xzerios wrote:
Thats how these rules break down and interact with each other. If you do not read it that way, You are incorrect.

One last thing there, I type in a very particular format. Aloof. My grammar is not correct, but Ill be damned if my English grasp isnt. If you dont understand the statement, see above.

Frankly, I'm not quite sure what to make of this post. My intent was not to criticize your grammar, spelling, etc. It was to bring to your attention the notion of glass houses and stones. Besides, it never really contributes anything to the discussion to go down that path.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:


Force is a Special rule on the weapon, it has a trigger condition: Unsaved Wound.

Agreed

Xzerios wrote:
What is the event? Choose to expend a point and test.

Choose to activate Force. expend charge and take psychic test if the psyker chooses to activate it

Xzerios wrote:
Pass and ID is applied to the weapon.

Pass and ID is applied to the unsaved wounds, not the weapon.

Xzerios wrote:
This is what the rule does.

With a few corrections, yes I would agree

Xzerios wrote:
You have access to the rule, which works for the Necron up till the event. MSS may force a model to make this choice for each Unsaved Wound.

Not quite, it's for one or more unsaved wounds (collectively).

Xzerios wrote:
In the end though, MSS' control ends as this choice is once again outside what you are able to dictate. Owner choices whether to expend and test, not MSS. Again, owner does, not MSS. This is how the rules for MSS, Controlling Player vs Opposing Player, and Force work with each other. :|

Huh? Control ends when MSS says it ends, after all the blows (attacks) have been struck. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you on that...

-Yad

So page 8 says control of a model is 'always' the person who brought it with his army. The other player is the opposing player.

MSS says that after blows are struck control returns to me.

You've taken that as an exception to the "ALWAYS" clause of Control vs Opposing.

I suggest another option. MSS isn't referencing Page 8 at all, and that after blows are struck, Control is returned from a model that is "Out of Control."
I don't see enough in the language of the FAQ to take the leap of the 'always' clause on page 8.

I do see enough to justify that the model was out of control, and after lashing out against his squadmates (or himself) he regains control.


If I take the stance that he's under your control, then once he fails his test who does he hit? He's no longer on my team, and he's hitting his allies as per the FAQ. Would that be you?

-Matt

 Neorealist wrote:
I'd disagree. The way i read the Force USR to work is as follows

Precondition: Unsaved Wound (Yes/No)?

(Yes)
[b]Choice:[/b] Activate Weapon [i](Yes2/No)?[/i]

(Yes2)
Mandatory Action: Spend a Warp Charge if available. (if unavailable, go to No)
Mandatory Action: Take Psychic Test (if failed, go to No, if Perils, follow rules for such)
(if passed 'and' warp charge spent, go to Yes3)

(No)
Result: Do Nothing.

(Yes3)
Result: Activate Instant Death

I coded the important part in your post Neo. Its this part that MSS doesnt control. Read MSS and what you control. This is not apart of what you control.

Yad wrote:The MSS rule tells the Necron player to return control of the affected model to the owning player. The inverse of that is that the Necron player has control of the affected model. The only part of the BRB that speaks to control of a model is on page eight.

You had control of the model in which specified instances? This is what your returning to control of the owning player.

Yad wrote:And you're still swinging away at this notion of a second choice regarding the cost to activate Force. Spending a warp charge and taking a test is the cost of using the Force USR. A cost you must pay if you decide to use (activate) it. You can't decouple the two. In fact, can you show me where, in the Force USR, you are allowed to activate Force yet not pay the warp charge and take the test (assuming the psyker has a warp charge to spend obviously)?

Because it reads that way with English? Mind you, this is a rhetorical question as we can both agree that why in gods green earth would you want me to choose again? It was written that way to prevent the model from auto expending each wound and testing as it would be unfair to the Psyker model if that were the case. Thus the second (rhetorical) question within the rule. As for the third sentence, you cant continue with the cost unless you chose. See the point? As for the part you can always activate Force, the second question arises within the rule and once again asks if you wish to expend and test. If you choose not to expend, you may not test. Even the Psyker cannot get around that as you have stated. Lastly, before I move on from this point here, you still have not addressed the fact that I pointed out other rules on weapons are worded in such a fashion that no 'second choice' arises within them. THOSE are rules that when you use them (Fleshbane, Armorbane) that there is no choice. They are innately on. No choice to be had and yet you benefit from the rule. Whys that? No choice within the rule.

The affected model. How is it conrolled? The MSS rule provides access to the model's:

Xzerios wrote:
S, I, weapon(s), and Special rules.



Xzerios wrote:
Those return to the player.



That is not what is says in the MSS rule. Control of the model, if he is still 'alive', is returned to the owning player.

Control of its Strength, Initiative value, Weapon(s), and Special rules are returned to owner. You had control of those outlined objects that the model requires to function, nothing more. Due to the nature of MSS and its 'control' does page eight come in. Again, permissive rules give you permission to those. Anything else outside those are not allowed. Its in the 'not allowed' portion that the choice to expend and test is. Its something that you simply do not have permission to do with the rule MSS.

Yad wrote:Yes, the Force USR does say that there is a choice to made. That choice is whether or not to activate it. And it doesn't say, "at the first unsaved wound". It's when one or more unsaved wounds are caused. Again, your supposition that the bearer of the Force weapon (with the Force USR) can somehow choose to activate Force and then choose not to pay the warp charge and take a test, is ludicrous. This is just bizarre...

You assume that what Im saying is you can test without expending. Force explicitly states you may not. In this case, 'you' is the model. Doesnt matter if its my model or your model. No permission granted. You have a choice to use the rule, and this rule has a choice to expend and test. You have a do not have choice to use Armorbane; its worded to be always on. Skyfire requires your permission to fire itself normally or in this Skyfire mode. These rules are worded as @#$ backwards in some cases. You must take it on a case by case basis as the rule is written. MSS is written to assume that the Special rules on the selected weapon are always on. Gorechild wounds on a 2+, Poison weapons wound on a x+ as the codex will tell you what it wounds on.
This option within the rule you assume you can 'force' to continue with the expend and test is incorrect. You only have choice with weapons. Thats where your choices end on the MSS side.

Thankfully, we all agree on the permissions bit. You are correct in that it applies ID to the Unsaved Wounds so good up on that point. :3

Yad wrote:Huh? Control ends when MSS says it ends, after all the blows (attacks) have been struck. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you on that...

Control of the items that MSS has gained control over. If it didnt, the model would be unable to attack with the unit it started with and those items would remain under the control of the Necron. Mind you, these are the Stats that the Fight Sub-phase requires to resolve the phase. We can say that there are other things that will come up on a Codex by Codex basis, but barring those instances; the phase needs those Stats from the model to resolve the phase in its entirety.

Xzerios wrote: I coded the important part in your post Neo. Its this part that MSS doesnt control. Read MSS and what you control. This is not apart of what you control.

You said it yourself, you 'control' the Special Rules (ie: the benefits and penalties) of the weapon. Making a choice in that instance is part of the Force USR.

Can you explain how one has control of the special rules of a weapon, but does not get to make any of the choices those very same special rules call for?

HawaiiMatt wrote:
So page 8 says control of a model is 'always' the person who brought it with his army. The other player is the opposing player.

MSS says that after blows are struck control returns to me.

You've taken that as an exception to the "ALWAYS" clause of Control vs Opposing.

I suggest another option. MSS isn't referencing Page 8 at all, and that after blows are struck, Control is returned from a model that is "Out of Control."
I don't see enough in the language of the FAQ to take the leap of the 'always' clause on page 8.

I do see enough to justify that the model was out of control, and after lashing out against his squadmates (or himself) he regains control.


If I take the stance that he's under your control, then once he fails his test who does he hit? He's no longer on my team, and he's hitting his allies as per the FAQ. Would that be you?

-Matt

Correct.
Correct.
You will need Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player for this rule. Why? Control is taken away and choices will eventually be made, since its a Codex doing the deed, it trumps this rule. Its been given its permissions which trump the BRB, the most important portion of Force though lies just outside of the permissions of MSS. Thats where BRB stops being trumped and the rule is followed as normal.
Of course MSS isnt going to reference page eight. It was a 5th Edition Codex written with 6th Edition in mind. Due to the nature of what the rule MSS does, you must reference the 6th BRB to resolve the rule and ensure that it remain within the rules required to complete the entire Assault Phase. I ask now that you show me the rule "Out of Control" in the BRB. I cant find it. :|
I cant help you with that sir. No can do.
... Ok. :|
Follow the rules as outlined in the Fight Sub-phase. It will tell you how to resolve his attacks. :3



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:

Xzerios wrote: I coded the important part in your post Neo. Its this part that MSS doesnt control. Read MSS and what you control. This is not apart of what you control.

You said it yourself, you 'control' the Special Rules (ie: the benefits and penalties) of the weapon. Making a choice in that instance is part of the Force USR.

Can you explain how one has control of the special rules of a weapon, but does not get to make any of the choices those very same special rules call for?

See page eight. If Im making the chocies, no need for page eight, if someone else is making my model do things, see page eight.
>:|

A review of page 8 indicates that (for the purposes of taking actions or making decisions) the controlling player is 'always' the player who 'owns' the model in question.

Given that i'm pretty sure that following the above would make MSS completely nonfunctional; I believe MSS supercedes that particular line by virtue of being a codex rule and therefore more specific about who controls the model and for how long (at least in regard to the models' Weapon(s) and their respective Special Rules).

 Neorealist wrote:
A review of page 8 indicates that (for the purposes of taking actions or making decisions) the controlling player is 'always' the player who 'owns' the model in question.

Given that i'm pretty sure that following the above would make MSS completely nonfunctional; I believe MSS supercedes that particular line by virtue of being a codex rule and therefore more specific about who controls the model and for how long (at least in regard to the models' Weapon(s) and their respective Special Rules).

Thank you, I agree with your second statement and the rules do too. MSS would be prevented from doing what it does because of this rule. However, and thanks to page seven, your allowed to trump it. The Necron trumps it all the way to the choice to expend the charge and test. Thats when the owner regains control for this very brief moment and he can choose to expend and test, or not. No matter the choice though, you must continue with the Fight Sub-phase and MSS once again resumes trump with the rest of the phase, including resolving attacks (be that the owner said yes and expended and tested and granted ID or not and no ID) and removing casualties.

Xzerios wrote: Thank you, I agree with your second statement and the rules do too. MSS would be prevented from doing what it does because of this rule. However, and thanks to page seven, your allowed to trump it. The Necron trumps it all the way to the choice to expend the charge and test. Thats when the owner regains control for this very brief moment and he can choose to expend and test, or not. No matter the choice though, you must continue with the Fight Sub-phase and MSS once again resumes trump with the rest of the phase, including resolving attacks (be that the owner said yes and expended and tested and granted ID or not and no ID) and removing casualties.

It's interesting that you'd pick that particular spot; to state that the owner of the psyker regains control of his or her model for that one choice and then loses it again until (presumably) all blows are struck in that combat round. Do you have any specific rule or opinion that would indicate why you feel the control provided by the MSS does not carry on throughout the assault phase rather than skipping over that one choice but handling the others?

Xzerios wrote:

Yad wrote:The MSS rule tells the Necron player to return control of the affected model to the owning player. The inverse of that is that the Necron player has control of the affected model. The only part of the BRB that speaks to control of a model is on page eight.

You had control of the model in which specified instances? This is what your returning to control of the owning player.

Exactly. Yad is committing another basic logical fallacy here, that of the excluded middle, or A implies B does not mean that B implies A

Yad - stop ignoring context. You can only return the control that was taken, and that was NOT full control over the model. No matter how often you ignore this point it just wont go away. You remain 100% incorrect in the amount of control that has been returned.

How does a Psyker Activate a force weapon?

A Psyker activates it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test...

Do we agree on this premise?

 DeathReaper wrote:
How does a Psyker Activate a force weapon?

A Psyker activates it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test...

Do we agree on this premise?

No he must first score an unsaved wound with a weapon that has the Force special rule. When unsaved wound occurs, the test can be made and the warp point spent. Which the controller of the MSS can do given permission by its rules in the Necron codex.

I can't believe you guys are still discussing this. I've played 9 6th edition games so far and all against enemy armies with Psykers and I usually bring a few MSS and I have yet to even see this come into play.

I mean, seems to me alot of the big tough and destructive guys with Force Weapons can't be instantly killed or can't penetrate their own armor saves.
Some Examples;
1. Mephiston
2. Draigo
3. Njal(with Terminator Armor, but in 6th, who isn't going to give him a 2+?)
4. A Grey Knight Grand Master(I know a Demon Hammer would go through his save, but it being a force weapon doesn't matter, its Str 8 and would splat him regardless)
5. Varro Tigurius(if you are using his model, then he has a Force Stave, which is only AP 4)

A Nemesis Dreadknight is about the only thing thats mean enough and where he could kill himself.

Obviously you guys can discuss whatever you like, it just seems to me the chances for MSS to get a powerful Psyker to kill himself is so rare, its just one of those cases when you really should just roll for it.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
I can't believe you guys are still discussing this. I've played 9 6th edition games so far and all against enemy armies with Psykers and I usually bring a few MSS and I have yet to even see this come into play.

I mean, seems to me alot of the big tough and destructive guys with Force Weapons can't be instantly killed or can't penetrate their own armor saves.
Some Examples;
1. Mephiston
2. Draigo
3. Njal(with Terminator Armor, but in 6th, who isn't going to give him a 2+?)
4. A Grey Knight Grand Master(I know a Demon Hammer would go through his save, but it being a force weapon doesn't matter, its Str 8 and would splat him regardless)
5. Varro Tigurius(if you are using his model, then he has a Force Stave, which is only AP 4)

A Nemesis Dreadknight is about the only thing thats mean enough and where he could kill himself.

Obviously you guys can discuss whatever you like, it just seems to me the chances for MSS to get a powerful Psyker to kill himself is so rare, its just one of those cases when you really should just roll for it.

If we take a briefly well earned rest from the rules discussion and take this question to another point of view, the gaming one. Do you yourself feel that it is in a gaming sense of way really a logical implementation of a 15 point wargear item to have high chances of by itself killing a in many cases 200+ points monstrous creature without even having to reliable on good dice rolls? Until strong text arrive to support that the thing previously stated is possible it just gives you a bad taste.

 Stoff3 wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
I can't believe you guys are still discussing this. I've played 9 6th edition games so far and all against enemy armies with Psykers and I usually bring a few MSS and I have yet to even see this come into play.

I mean, seems to me alot of the big tough and destructive guys with Force Weapons can't be instantly killed or can't penetrate their own armor saves.
Some Examples;
1. Mephiston
2. Draigo
3. Njal(with Terminator Armor, but in 6th, who isn't going to give him a 2+?)
4. A Grey Knight Grand Master(I know a Demon Hammer would go through his save, but it being a force weapon doesn't matter, its Str 8 and would splat him regardless)
5. Varro Tigurius(if you are using his model, then he has a Force Stave, which is only AP 4)

A Nemesis Dreadknight is about the only thing thats mean enough and where he could kill himself.

Obviously you guys can discuss whatever you like, it just seems to me the chances for MSS to get a powerful Psyker to kill himself is so rare, its just one of those cases when you really should just roll for it.

If we take a briefly well earned rest from the rules discussion and take this question to another point of view, the gaming one. Do you yourself feel that it is in a gaming sense of way really a logical implementation of a 15 point wargear item to have high chances of by itself killing a in many cases 200+ points monstrous creature without even having to reliable on good dice rolls? Until strong text arrive to support that the thing previously stated is possible it just gives you a bad taste.

Except considering where Necrons lack in the way of beefy CC units or characters as powerful as Mephiston, Draigo etc... or anything reliable to counter Monstrous creatures other than MSS. It's perfectly fair and costed for the army as a whole. In a vacuum it's inexpensive for what it can potentially do. But it does require good die rolls to pull off. Your opponent has to roll high to fail the test, high to do even 3 attacks and generally MC can't killl themselves in one round of combat from one failed MSS roll. Unique situations occur, like a Hive Tyrant with a bonesword instant deathing itself(I pulled this off) but again it takes good(or bad depending on our POV) die rolls to occur. Tesseract labyrinths cost the same amount of point, all be it a single use weapon, and with a failed test can even remove Eternal Warriors from the game.

You point view is really one sided. A 15 pt upgrade against a 200+ pt model? The upgrade goes by itself? It's a 15 point upgrade to a 90 pt model. That makes it at least 105 while the most basic configuration is around 130 pts (MSS+Weave+Warscythe).

So there is 50% mathematical chance a 130 pts model to kill a 200+pt model. Is it the only one?! And 50% is only mathematical because, asTheCrazyFreak said, most force weapons don't penetrate a 2+ save. And in any case you have the option the spend the warp charge before the MSS kicks in, so the actual chance is ~ 0%.

So...

We all agree MSS allows the Necron player to use the weapon and all special rules that the weapon has.

The Psykers weapon has a special rule that allows him to activate the weapon and spend a warp charge point.

The argument against this:

The Necron with MSS can activate the weapon, but can't spend the warp charge point?

The warp charge is the ammo, or power for the special rule. This argument is like saying you can shoot the gun, but GOTCHA the rule doesn't say you can use any ammunition - rediculous. The long twists of logic you must take to get to this conclusion just shows that it's against RAW and RAI.

MSS lets you use the weapon and all special rules. Spending a warp charge to activate the weapon is part of the special rules for the weapon. Of course the Necron with MSS can activate the weapon (and spend a warp charge causing the model to take a psychic test). The same goes for any other weapon that has a negative consequence for using it. Those consequences apply no matter how the weapon is activated.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
I can't believe you guys are still discussing this. I've played 9 6th edition games so far and all against enemy armies with Psykers and I usually bring a few MSS and I have yet to even see this come into play.

I mean, seems to me alot of the big tough and destructive guys with Force Weapons can't be instantly killed or can't penetrate their own armor saves.
Some Examples;
1. Mephiston
2. Draigo
3. Njal(with Terminator Armor, but in 6th, who isn't going to give him a 2+?)
4. A Grey Knight Grand Master(I know a Demon Hammer would go through his save, but it being a force weapon doesn't matter, its Str 8 and would splat him regardless)
5. Varro Tigurius(if you are using his model, then he has a Force Stave, which is only AP 4)

A Nemesis Dreadknight is about the only thing thats mean enough and where he could kill himself.

Obviously you guys can discuss whatever you like, it just seems to me the chances for MSS to get a powerful Psyker to kill himself is so rare, its just one of those cases when you really should just roll for it.

If we take a briefly well earned rest from the rules discussion and take this question to another point of view, the gaming one. Do you yourself feel that it is in a gaming sense of way really a logical implementation of a 15 point wargear item to have high chances of by itself killing a in many cases 200+ points monstrous creature without even having to reliable on good dice rolls? Until strong text arrive to support that the thing previously stated is possible it just gives you a bad taste.

Except considering where Necrons lack in the way of beefy CC units or characters as powerful as Mephiston, Draigo etc... or anything reliable to counter Monstrous creatures other than MSS. It's perfectly fair and costed for the army as a whole. In a vacuum it's inexpensive for what it can potentially do. But it does require good die rolls to pull off. Your opponent has to roll high to fail the test, high to do even 3 attacks and generally MC can't killl themselves in one round of combat from one failed MSS roll. Unique situations occur, like a Hive Tyrant with a bonesword instant deathing itself(I pulled this off) but again it takes good(or bad depending on our POV) die rolls to occur. Tesseract labyrinths cost the same amount of point, all be it a single use weapon, and with a failed test can even remove Eternal Warriors from the game.

Rethink and do some maths. The chances for a dead dreadknight is actually quite high, even higher when equipped with anything else the nemesis doomfists.

The "fair and costed for the army as a whole" part is sadly ridiculous. There's already more or less autowin lists with necrons, why do you need autowin against the few stuff that could actually do some damage against them? And none of the items you speak about is anywhere near MSS. But I guess you are right, Necron Warriors must be protected, since they only have better survivability than marines for less points. It's really a shame that they are that squishy.

I must also ask one thing. Why does necrons need anything "reliable to counter monstrous creatures"? Is it not enough with wraiths, annihilation barge, crypteks, c'tan, deathmarks, night scythes and so on...? Some armies would kill for ONE good counter to stuff. SIGH!

Again you are being one sided. If you are letting your dreadnight getting instakilled it's because you didn't spend your warp charge in the 1st place, It's your choice to let it happen. And instead of being happy that there is such an easy way to not let your MC instakilled, you complain that necrons are autowin. Why? Just because you want to have that warp charge handy to instakill the enemy overlord....

...which S10 would do anyway (sorry couldn't resist).

A destroyer lord is T6.

 Lukus83 wrote:
...which S10 would do anyway (sorry couldn't resist).

The issue is that many necron players skips troop transports or ad least did all the time in 5th edition because they could. Then some people started to make lists to hurt those warrior blobs (naturally). The easy solution, that most other teams has to do to protect their units or characters is to pick transports. I don't believe there many other lords that are as capable to inflict a great deal of damage to a dreadknight as a necron lord with MSS and warscythe. That even with my interpretation of MSS.

If you are afraid of a dreadknight coming to kill your lord and/or unit, put them in a transport! Do not ask for autowin cheese just because you want points for ther cheesy stuff!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:
A destroyer lord is T6.

Oh my.. you were talking about an overlord. And a destroyer lord is not quite relevenat to speak about in this question since he is jump inf, just as the dreadknight. So if he doesn't wanna risk taking the fight with the dreadknight he has as good chances of avoiding it. The fact that the destroyer lord also has access to MSS and warscythe by default is by itself amongst the best defenses against a dreadknight there is in the game.