Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Cheesy stuff? For Necrons? You do remember that GK has been characterized as the cheesiest codex ever in 5th? And now you advocate that 1 upgrade of the necrons makes them cheesy?

If a necron player made you lose hard, don't blame it on the "cheesy stuff", blame it on you. It'll make you a better player. And for the record in a rules forum, backing up arguments because the other side has "cheesy stuff: doesn't make you look good...

copper.talos wrote:
Cheesy stuff? For Necrons? You do remember that GK has been characterized as the cheesiest codex ever in 5th? And now you advocate that 1 upgrade of the necrons makes them cheesy?

If a necron player made you lose hard, don't blame it on the "cheesy stuff", blame it on you. It'll make you a better player. And for the record in a rules forum, backing up arguments because the other side has "cheesy stuff: doesn't make you look good...

My bad, I was in some strange way assuming that you are a player who has played some matches in a healthy meta at least. Apparently not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:
Cheesy stuff? For Necrons? You do remember that GK has been characterized as the cheesiest codex ever in 5th? And now you advocate that 1 upgrade of the necrons makes them cheesy?

If a necron player made you lose hard, don't blame it on the "cheesy stuff", blame it on you. It'll make you a better player. And for the record in a rules forum, backing up arguments because the other side has "cheesy stuff: doesn't make you look good...

I said earlier that I took a rest from the rules discussion and wanted to adress my frustration over why players who are playing with the best codex out there are looking for more cheese in hard fetched ways. Re-read if you missed it.

I have won and lost quite a few matches against GK, all of them in 5th. Every win hard fought, every loss I blamed it on me. I never complained about "cheesy stuff" in a rules forum in order to make an upgrade look "cheesy" and try to twist its use.

Anyway the GK have actually really good stuff in their arsenal to fight necrons. With and without MSS. No need to complain at all.

copper.talos wrote:
I have won and lost quite a few matches against GK, all of them in 5th. Every win hard fought, every loss I blamed it on me. I never complained about "cheesy stuff" in a rules forum in order to make an upgrade look "cheesy" and try to twist its use.

Anyway the GK have actually really good stuff in their arsenal to fight necrons. With and without MSS. No need to complain at all.

I have never said that GK are the worst team to face necrons with. In fact they're one of the few teams that can hurt necrons, especially if the necron player is hoarding warriors without transports. With the new flyers and additional rules that will probably not be the case any more.

When it comes to other teams, I would without hesitation say that IG is one of the few that also can hurt necrons now, especially since night fighting is changed. By that I don't mean that IG will win most of the matchups but they are having chances.

Most other teams suffers immensly against necrons, especially the flyer spam which my many has been stamped as bad manners to even run in a game. I'm very surprised that you don't have more insight on the powerlevel of your own team.

I can also when I'm still on it here tell you that the UK 40k Masters held this year, the newest codex triumphed, necrons that is. And for a new codex to do it in the way it did is telling you more than something. And the buff to them in 6th haven't made it any better sadly. GK on the other hand has taken quite some nerfs overall and is in fact more on the "good/balanced" side now.

 Stoff3 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
I can't believe you guys are still discussing this. I've played 9 6th edition games so far and all against enemy armies with Psykers and I usually bring a few MSS and I have yet to even see this come into play.

I mean, seems to me alot of the big tough and destructive guys with Force Weapons can't be instantly killed or can't penetrate their own armor saves.
Some Examples;
1. Mephiston
2. Draigo
3. Njal(with Terminator Armor, but in 6th, who isn't going to give him a 2+?)
4. A Grey Knight Grand Master(I know a Demon Hammer would go through his save, but it being a force weapon doesn't matter, its Str 8 and would splat him regardless)
5. Varro Tigurius(if you are using his model, then he has a Force Stave, which is only AP 4)

A Nemesis Dreadknight is about the only thing thats mean enough and where he could kill himself.

Obviously you guys can discuss whatever you like, it just seems to me the chances for MSS to get a powerful Psyker to kill himself is so rare, its just one of those cases when you really should just roll for it.

If we take a briefly well earned rest from the rules discussion and take this question to another point of view, the gaming one. Do you yourself feel that it is in a gaming sense of way really a logical implementation of a 15 point wargear item to have high chances of by itself killing a in many cases 200+ points monstrous creature without even having to reliable on good dice rolls? Until strong text arrive to support that the thing previously stated is possible it just gives you a bad taste.

Except considering where Necrons lack in the way of beefy CC units or characters as powerful as Mephiston, Draigo etc... or anything reliable to counter Monstrous creatures other than MSS. It's perfectly fair and costed for the army as a whole. In a vacuum it's inexpensive for what it can potentially do. But it does require good die rolls to pull off. Your opponent has to roll high to fail the test, high to do even 3 attacks and generally MC can't killl themselves in one round of combat from one failed MSS roll. Unique situations occur, like a Hive Tyrant with a bonesword instant deathing itself(I pulled this off) but again it takes good(or bad depending on our POV) die rolls to occur. Tesseract labyrinths cost the same amount of point, all be it a single use weapon, and with a failed test can even remove Eternal Warriors from the game.

Rethink and do some maths. The chances for a dead dreadknight is actually quite high, even higher when equipped with anything else the nemesis doomfists.

The "fair and costed for the army as a whole" part is sadly ridiculous. There's already more or less autowin lists with necrons, why do you need autowin against the few stuff that could actually do some damage against them? And none of the items you speak about is anywhere near MSS. But I guess you are right, Necron Warriors must be protected, since they only have better survivability than marines for less points. It's really a shame that they are that squishy.

I must also ask one thing. Why does necrons need anything "reliable to counter monstrous creatures"? Is it not enough with wraiths, annihilation barge, crypteks, c'tan, deathmarks, night scythes and so on...? Some armies would kill for ONE good counter to stuff. SIGH!

I'm a Necron player and I am forced to agree with Stoff3 here. MSS is awesome to for killing but Monstrous Creatures, but not the only way. A Squad of deathmarks is pretty darn good vs MCs.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
I can't believe you guys are still discussing this. I've played 9 6th edition games so far and all against enemy armies with Psykers and I usually bring a few MSS and I have yet to even see this come into play.

I mean, seems to me alot of the big tough and destructive guys with Force Weapons can't be instantly killed or can't penetrate their own armor saves.
Some Examples;
1. Mephiston
2. Draigo
3. Njal(with Terminator Armor, but in 6th, who isn't going to give him a 2+?)
4. A Grey Knight Grand Master(I know a Demon Hammer would go through his save, but it being a force weapon doesn't matter, its Str 8 and would splat him regardless)
5. Varro Tigurius(if you are using his model, then he has a Force Stave, which is only AP 4)

A Nemesis Dreadknight is about the only thing thats mean enough and where he could kill himself.

Obviously you guys can discuss whatever you like, it just seems to me the chances for MSS to get a powerful Psyker to kill himself is so rare, its just one of those cases when you really should just roll for it.

If we take a briefly well earned rest from the rules discussion and take this question to another point of view, the gaming one. Do you yourself feel that it is in a gaming sense of way really a logical implementation of a 15 point wargear item to have high chances of by itself killing a in many cases 200+ points monstrous creature without even having to reliable on good dice rolls? Until strong text arrive to support that the thing previously stated is possible it just gives you a bad taste.

Except considering where Necrons lack in the way of beefy CC units or characters as powerful as Mephiston, Draigo etc... or anything reliable to counter Monstrous creatures other than MSS. It's perfectly fair and costed for the army as a whole. In a vacuum it's inexpensive for what it can potentially do. But it does require good die rolls to pull off. Your opponent has to roll high to fail the test, high to do even 3 attacks and generally MC can't killl themselves in one round of combat from one failed MSS roll. Unique situations occur, like a Hive Tyrant with a bonesword instant deathing itself(I pulled this off) but again it takes good(or bad depending on our POV) die rolls to occur. Tesseract labyrinths cost the same amount of point, all be it a single use weapon, and with a failed test can even remove Eternal Warriors from the game.

Rethink and do some maths. The chances for a dead dreadknight is actually quite high, even higher when equipped with anything else the nemesis doomfists.

The "fair and costed for the army as a whole" part is sadly ridiculous. There's already more or less autowin lists with necrons, why do you need autowin against the few stuff that could actually do some damage against them? And none of the items you speak about is anywhere near MSS. But I guess you are right, Necron Warriors must be protected, since they only have better survivability than marines for less points. It's really a shame that they are that squishy.

I must also ask one thing. Why does necrons need anything "reliable to counter monstrous creatures"? Is it not enough with wraiths, annihilation barge, crypteks, c'tan, deathmarks, night scythes and so on...? Some armies would kill for ONE good counter to stuff. SIGH!

I'm a Necron player and I am forced to agree with Stoff3 here. MSS is awesome to for killing but Monstrous Creatures, but not the only way. A Squad of deathmarks is pretty darn good vs MCs.

Nice to see someone with good knowledge about their team. Deathmarks are really scary in 6th

copper.talos wrote:
If you are letting your dreadnight getting instakilled it's because you didn't spend your warp charge in the 1st place.

You mean because both Dreadknight psychic powers go off at the start of the Fight sub-phase, like MSS, and as such the player whose turn it is gets to choose order?

I thought D.Exc was cast before MSS. So anyway this means 50% chance in 50% of the CC rounds. Hardly a "omg imba cheeese" condition. And we are talking about 1 model. Other costy psykers ie Mephiston can save at 2+ his own force weapon.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
How does a Psyker Activate a force weapon?

A Psyker activates it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test...

Do we agree on this premise?

No he must first score an unsaved wound with a weapon that has the Force special rule. When unsaved wound occurs, the test can be made and the warp point spent. Which the controller of the MSS can do given permission by its rules in the Necron codex.

So you do not agree that

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)" P.37

Want to rethink your answer about the premise?

How does a Psyker Activate a force weapon?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
How does a Psyker Activate a force weapon?

A Psyker activates it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test...

Do we agree on this premise?

No he must first score an unsaved wound with a weapon that has the Force special rule. When unsaved wound occurs, the test can be made and the warp point spent. Which the controller of the MSS can do given permission by its rules in the Necron codex.

So you do not agree that

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)" P.37

Want to rethink your answer about the premise?

How does a Psyker Activate a force weapon?

I think you're asking the wrong question. You ought to be asking:

What happens when a psyker, armed with a weapon that has the Force USR, causes one or more unsaved wounds?

Answer: The psyker can choose to activate (i.e., use) the Force USR.

How does a Psyker activate (i.e., use) the Force USR?

Answer: By spending a warp charge and successfully passing a psychic test.

-Yad

Very good Yad. Now how does a non-Psyker (i.e. a model that is equipped with MSS) activate it [the Force ability]?

Same is same, but okay.

you agree that the answer is:

Answer: By spending a warp charge and successfully passing a psychic test.

The activation starts with the expenditure of the Warp Charge.

Happyjew wrote:
Very good Yad. Now how does a non-Psyker (i.e. a model that is equipped with MSS) activate it [the Force ability]?

The non-psyker (MSS model) is not the bearer of the weapon with access to the Force USR. The non-psker though is allowed to choose to activate the Force USR. It's this choice that 'forces' the bearer of the weapon with access to the Force USR to spend the charge and take the test.

-Yad

Ok, so the MSS player says he is using the Force ability of hte weapon. What does the Force ability do? It gives the Psyker wielding it a choice.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Same is same, but okay.

you agree that the answer is:

Answer: By spending a warp charge and successfully passing a psychic test.

The activation starts with the expenditure of the Warp Charge.

Hmm, you're kinda ignoring the first question. Which to me is of the most importance. Once the psyker scores a number of unsaved wounds they are left with a choice. Does he or does he not activate Force. It is this choice that is provided by MSS. If the choice is yes the psyker, as the bearer of the Force Weapon, must spend a charge and take a psychic test.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
Ok, so the MSS player says he is using the Force ability of hte weapon. What does the Force ability do? It gives the Psyker wielding it a choice.

I would ask you where in the Force USR does it say that the psyker can choose to activate Force but choose not to spend the charge and take the psychic test.

-Yad

Happyjew wrote:
Ok, so the MSS player says he is using the Force ability of hte weapon. What does the Force ability do? It gives the Psyker wielding it a choice.

No, the weapon only activates if you spend the warp charge. The Necron with MSS is allowed to activate the weapon. You cannot activate the weapon AND not spend a warp charge.

The Psyker can choose to activate it by doing X.

No one has ever said that the weapon can be activated without doing X. If the psyker chooses not to activate it X does not occur. If the psyker chooses to activate it than X occurs.

The disagreement is how much control the MSS player has over the models action. The pro-side says full control. the anti-side says only what is explicitly written in the rule (in other words how many hits, and what weapon is used).

Happyjew wrote:
The Psyker can choose to activate it by doing X.

No one has ever said that the weapon can be activated without doing X. If the psyker chooses not to activate it X does not occur. If the psyker chooses to activate it than X occurs.

The disagreement is how much control the MSS player has over the models action. The pro-side says full control. the anti-side says only what is explicitly written in the rule (in other words how many hits, and what weapon is used).

Hmm, I think folks here have actually been arguing that. Namely that while the MSS controller can choose to use the Force USR ability of the weapon, they can't choose to expend a warp charge and take a test. Thus no ID from unsaved wounds.

To me though this implies that there are two instances of where a choice can be made. The first choice is whether or not to use (i.e. activate) Force. Am I safe in saying that the majority of folks seem to think the MSS player can? The second choice is whether or not the charge can be spent and test taken. If you accept that these are valid choices, then you should be prepared (meaning have rules support) to explain the different combination of choices that this presents.

Path 1: Choose to Activate Force / Choose to spend charge and take test
Path 2: Choose to not Activate Force / Choice to spend charge and take test is null
Path 3: Choose to Activate Force / Choose to not spend charge and take test (where in the Force USR is this allowed?)

In reading your latest post, it seems to me that you are of the understanding that should you choose to activate force you must spend a charge and take a test. So my question to you is why should it matter who is making the choice more so than the fact that the choice has been made?

-Yad

The target of the MSS isn't the weapon. it's the psyker himself. He is the "victim" that "strike at his allies". The hits which should benefit from any abilities of the weapon are the psyker's.

So after those hits were made the psyker has a choice, should those hits benefit from the force rule. MSS kicks in and he is forced to activate the ability.

To quote again the MSS rule p.81 Necron Codex: "These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to normal once all blows in that round of combat have been struck."

It says right there the MSS controller chooses if there is a choice. So if timing is not an issue then it's clear. However timing is an issue.

Following RAW there is a case where the MSS would not be allowed to activate it. If the model with the force weapon is attacking last all blows will have been struck before saves. In this case, the victim goes back to normal before any unsaved wounds are inflicted.

So at I6, you'll resolve all these force attacks and saves and see how many unsaved wounds you get. All blows have not yet been struck, so the MSS Necron still has control. The Necron with MSS can activate the weapon at this time.

At I1 after all blows have been struck there is no possibility of any more blows so the MSS Necron loses control and cannot activate the force weapon.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
To quote again the MSS rule p.81 Necron Codex: "These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to normal once all blows in that round of combat have been struck."

It says right there the MSS controller chooses if there is a choice. So if timing is not an issue then it's clear. However timing is an issue.

Following RAW there is a case where the MSS would not be allowed to activate it. If the model with the force weapon is attacking last all blows will have been struck before saves. In this case, the victim goes back to normal before any unsaved wounds are inflicted.

So at I6, you'll resolve all these force attacks and saves and see how many unsaved wounds you get. All blows have not yet been struck, so the MSS Necron still has control. The Necron with MSS can activate the weapon at this time.

At I1 after all blows have been struck there is no possibility of any more blows so the MSS Necron loses control and cannot activate the force weapon.

Fixed your quote as it is has been changed in the FAQ.

As above. Previously the choice was fairly clearly only which ccw to use (otherwise you would be claiming the MSS player can choose to not use the Unwieldy rule, for example, which is patent nonsense). - now it is absolutely explicit

Yad - j take it your failure to deny the level of control miss exerts is limited and NOF full that you concede your error?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As above. Previously the choice was fairly clearly only which ccw to use (otherwise you would be claiming the MSS player can choose to not use the Unwieldy rule, for example, which is patent nonsense). - now it is absolutely explicit

Yad - j take it your failure to deny the level of control miss exerts is limited and NOF full that you concede your error?

Yawn. Quite the straw man you've built there. I've been very consistent in specifying the actions that MSS provides to the MSS controller. Namely the choice over which weapon the affected model can use. It seems to me that this statement demonstrates a complete lack of understanding as to my supporting arguments and rules citations. As well as the interoperability between MSS and Force.

What you're failing to grasp is that the MSS player can be considered the Controlling Player, yet still have limited actions/decisions to take on behalf of the affected model. The fact though that the MSS controller can be considered the Controlling Player allows the MSS controller to make decisions when those actions (limited as they are by MSS) require a decision to be made. Just a more technical way of saying that the MSS player can choose to use the Force USR.

-Yad

Yawn back. You kept claiming you had unqualified control, and only when repeatedly shown the gak that this was are you now trying to pretend otherwise

The mss player is the controlling player only for the choice in which ccw go use, because that is the only choice miss gives the player. The mss player never inherits any other permissions

Show that they can make a choice that the owning player is given which is NOT choosing ccw, and you would begin to have an argument. Please find this rule, as you have been unable to do so so far....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yawn back. You kept claiming you had unqualified control, and only when repeatedly shown the gak that this was are you now trying to pretend otherwise

The mss player is the controlling player only for the choice in which ccw go use, because that is the only choice miss gives the player. The mss player never inherits any other permissions

Show that they can make a choice that the owning player is given which is NOT choosing ccw, and you would begin to have an argument. Please find this rule, as you have been unable to do so so far....

I think you're going to have to go back and re-read the posts I had regarding Controlling Player and how MSS gives you a subset of actions. I've also deliberately steered away from the notion of full control, a game mechanic of your invention.

The MSS player certainly does inherent the permissions given as a Controlling Player of the affected model. Those permissions (to take actions and make decisions) are gated through the MSS rule. That's the misunderstanding you've been operating under with regards to my position.

Your last point is yet another straw man, as I've never maintained that position.

-Yad

:|






>:|



So, anyone want some ice cream here? Its Gona go fast.
Now that thats outa the way, lets move back to the premises of the amount of control that MSS has over the model.

Page 81 Necron Codex, second paragraph for Mindshackle Scarabs replaced with 6th Edition FaQ wrote:
At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.

Strength
Initiative (although this is not written within the rules, since the model will be striking its blows at its initaitive, we can say that it quasi-gains control over this stat)
Weapon(s)
Special rules (attached to the weapon itself, not the model; more specific instances such as 'The Betrayer' from Kharn in the CSM Codex may come into play)

I want to note here that this is the 6th Edition FaQ. Please direct attention to the section within the parenthesis. Page eight will be coming up soon so be ready!

So, thats what we get in the toolkit for MSS. Alright, now back to Force.

Pg 37 BRB wrote:
Force
If a Psyker inflicts on or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons. Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or models that do not have a Wounds characteristic.

Well, Force goes on to state its a property of the weapon. Alright, wait... is that a choice written within the rule there? Page eight time!

Pg 8 BRB wrote:
Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player
Sometimes, a rule will ask for the controlling player to make an action or decision of some kind. At others, it will place the same responsibility on the opposing player. The controlling player is always the player who 'owns' the model in question - the one who has included it in his army. The opposing player is always his opponent.

Righto, lets go back to see where MSS gave it permission to trump the owner.
Strength
Initiative (indirectly, again)
Weapon(s)
Special rules
Well, aint that odd. I can still use the rule for Force but within its rules it states that a choice is to be made.


People, this choice - the one to expend a Warp Charge point and take the Psychic test - was not given to MSS. You must turn back to page eight to resolve this choice and~ *drumroll*
The owner of the model gets to choose yes or no!
Whys that? Force as its written asks for permission to expend and charge (Yes, you read that right. A permissive rule asking for more permission). It can not resolve itself without this choice or without a Warp Charge point as the rule clearly defines. As I have stated throughout my switch to the against-MSS side, it is this second decision that MSS doesnt cover; doesnt trump, and as the rule has been invoked, you must resolve it (as MSS was given permission to invoke). To resolve itself, the owner must decide, not MSS as it wasnt given permission to decide in this second choice.

AS apparently you dont even remember what you posted, i'll go back a couple of pages to your first attempt at redefining your argument when it was pointed out you do not have entire control

Yad wrote:

Close. You (the Necron player) are considered the Controlling Player first and foremost.

No, you are considered a controlling player. AS you do not have control over the model entire, just a subset of actions you cannot be THE controlling player.

Do you agree or disagree here? Yes or No

Yad wrote:
Second to that you are only provided the power to choose which weapon the affected model may wield.

Correct

Yad wrote:
Should an ability of that weapon require a decision to be made, you as the Controlling Player may do so.

1) A controlling player
2) Who can only make decisions regarding WHICH CCW to use.

Your conclusion here is an entirely unsupported in rules leap

Yad wrote:
Why? Because it's a matter of inheritance (if you're familiar with programming ) As the Controlling Player you are allowed to make decisions and take actions for the models you control.

Here you are back to making the claim, entirely without any m erit of course, that you have unqualified control. Apparnetly you never claimed this? SHock, you're caught out in a lie.

Yes, as A controlling player you can make decisions about which CCW you can use. Please show permission to make a choice about anything else.

Yad wrote:
Yes, MSS only allows you to choose the weapon to be used. It also allows you to use any ability that the weapon may have. That permission right there directly correlates to how the Controlling Player can make decisions and take actions for the model.

AGain, here is where you are deciding you are "the" controlling player, when that is complete gak, you have again leapt to deciding that because you have the abiulity to choose ONE SINGLE CHOICE you can somehow choose whatever you like about abilities of the CCW, despite never ever gaining that choice

Your inheritance argument has no merit, no basis in rules, and is you making gak up again. Your idea that you are "the" controlling player has no merit, and is you making up gak again and pretending you said something else.

Not a strawman when your own posts prove otherwise

So, for the final time - find permission in the MSS rule to make a choice about something other than what CCW you are able to use

If, as ever, you avoid this by claiming "strawman", despite this being what you are claiming you are allowed to do, you will have conceded despite your protestations to the contrary.

That one is easy enough. The MSSs' controller has the ability to use 'any' benefit the CCW has. Instant-death-ing the (model that has been dealt an unsaved wound) is a benefit of the Force USR and as such a benefit of the weapon.

Therefore, The MSSs' controller has the right to 'choose' to have that happen.

Your skipping a step though Neo, You guys have A, activating the weapons rule. B is the expend/test, C is the end ressult of ID on the weapon now.
Now, which one can you do, and which one can you not do. Ill give you a hint, its A. :3

 Neorealist wrote:
That one is easy enough. The MSSs' controller has the ability to use 'any' benefit the CCW has. Instant-death-ing the (model that has been dealt an unsaved wound) is a benefit of the Force USR and as such a benefit of the weapon.

Therefore, The MSSs' controller has the right to 'choose' to have that happen.

No, as 52% of the people here have pointed out, the only benefit force provides is for a psyker to choose whether or not to expend a warp charge after an unsaved wound. All the MSS player can do is suggest that doing so might be a good idea, but the choice is ultimately up to the controlling player.