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It always seemed strange to me that I (as an IG gun line) have this veritable wall of bayonets facing the incoming enemy that bestows no benefit. So I propose a new/replacement order:

Affix Bayonets! The officer orders his men to prepare to receive an enemy charge, making use of cover, suppression fire, and bayonets.

If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit counts as equipped with defensive grenades until the beginning of the next Imperial Guard turn.

A line of short knifes isn't going to do much against, say, a squad of Khorne Berzekers.

Not a bad idea, far better than counterattack or anything along those lines. I like it.

I once made an AFFIX BAYONETS thread here

Defensive grenades doesnt sound bad though too. Though I'm wondering whether defensive grenades over additional lasgun shots/TL/rerolling cover saves is worth it

If anything it should be counterattack or a reroll on overwatch.
Fixing bayonetts should not grant you stealth.

This sounds like a cool idea. Except that I think IG squads should be able to buy defensive grenades. They could just be called "Blind Grenades" like in the GK Codex. I think then AFFIX BAYONETS could give them counter-attack.

I like this idea, although maybe not defensive grenades. Thats a little bit of a stretch IMO, like Valkyrie said.

I think a better thing would be to have the order give the Guardsmen +1I in the next round of close combat. However, the order cannot be given to a unit that has moved in its preceeding movement phase.

I know it has nothing to do with affixing bayonets but shooting overwatch at BS2 instead of BS1 to represent the line of guardsmen preparing to receive the enemy rather than shooting pot shots when an enemy runs round a corner to chop them to pieces sounds like a pretty good rule to me.

Thats a good idea, although it could be a little too powerful on all their weapons. Maybe the BS2 overwatch should only apply to Lasguns.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats a good idea, although it could be a little too powerful on all their weapons. Maybe the BS2 overwatch should only apply to Lasguns.

Yeah I forgot to write the only lasguns bit in my comment I was thinking of FRFSRF when I was writing it.

Could be also a Hammer of Wrath style I10 strike for each model in BTB when the initial pile-in is resolved.

I think that would work, as the guardsmen are waiting to recieve the charge, and let the enemy break upon them, a bit like charging pikemen in medieval times, as they aren't exactly charging the chargers as counter-attack suggsests

I think that anything involving affixing bayonets should make the unit worse at shooting somehow. Bayonets unbalance rifles and make them slightly more arduous to fire accurately. So perhaps something making the IG better at combat, but slightly worse at shooting (though they should overwatch as normal etc).

Edit: Maybe affixing bayonets could give guardsmen some sort of 'parry' ability? For example a better ability to evade and strike back at foes, but at the same strength, represented with +1 to WS or something, along with some other negative to shooting ( perhaps only snap shots over 12")?

I don't think that some random sharp and pointy objects would trouble a walking tank (Space Marine), a rampaging fungus (Ork) or a bio-engineered killing machine (Genestealer). So before making any "Affix Bayonets!" order, the creator should at least put some effort into explaining that why a Carnifex/Dreadnought/Lysander is so scared from those bayonets.

So overall, while i think some nice defensive meler order would be nice, the idea of uber!bayonets is laughable. Maybe a "Keep firing boys!" order that allows the squad to fire Overwatch at normal BS. Or a "Counter the Attack!" order.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I don't think that some random sharp and pointy objects would trouble a walking tank (Space Marine), a rampaging fungus (Ork) or a bio-engineered killing machine (Genestealer). So before making any "Affix Bayonets!" order, the creator should at least put some effort into explaining that why a Carnifex/Dreadnought/Lysander is so scared from those bayonets.

Well a +1 to WS or something wouldn't make that much of a difference, but would make guardsmen that much more survivable in assault against the units less dangerous in assault. They'd still get crushed by most things, just a little slower.

OK, so i do feel that the affix bayonets order should give defensive grenades. As I stated in my original post they are not just slapping on a pointy stick and standing around. They will prepare to receive the enemy making use of cover and suppression fire. I do not think that stealth is much of a stretch in this instance.

And as for Carnifex/Dreadnought/Lysander, it doesn't have to be that they these units are afraid of the bayonets, as much as the guardsmen are making use of a polearm to ward off attacks.

Think of it as an active defense, the guardsmen are using everything at their disposal to defend themselves.

I'd prefer the idea of giving them an advantage in the overwatch phase.

I don't see bayonets doing anything against most of the denizens of the 40k universe. However, fear of being charged by those units could affect how fast they'd fire. I think the order should allow them either a reroll for lasguns in the overwatch phase or an extra lasgun shot per Guardsman.

This makes it a little less complicated as well IMHO.

 SirSpokomo wrote:
They will prepare to receive the enemy making use of cover and suppression fire.

We have the "I1 when moving through difficult terrain" for the first and Overwatch for the second.

 SirSpokomo wrote:
And as for Carnifex/Dreadnought/Lysander, it doesn't have to be that they these units are afraid of the bayonets, as much as the guardsmen are making use of a polearm to ward off attacks.

But again, how would a random bayonet help them against these opponents? And if the order in fact covers a wider range of defensive preparations, then it isn't about bayonets so the "bayonet" word in its name is kinda' surplus.


Oh and the biggest problem with bayonets: what about the regiments what don't use them? Like the Elysians or the Catachans?

 AtoMaki wrote:


But again, how would a random bayonet help them against these opponents?

The same way Guardsman manage to bludgeon Space Marines and Carnifex's to death using just their lasguns in CqC. TT rules > fluff.

Assault grenades get rid of the I1 when moving through difficult terrain. I feel like I am repeating myself with this, but think of it as an active defense where the guardsmen are using their preparation to defend themselves better than they would normally be able to. I know that almost everyone in the galaxy is bigger and faster us puny humans, but its not much to leap to to assume that when prepared a line of guardsmen would be able to use their weapons (bayonet or not) to deflect (most likely breaking the weapon) the first swing. Again, (fluff) its not so much that this order is effecting those launching the assault as much as better preparing the guardsmen.

The orders aren't tailored to any specific army, or tailored to encompass all armies either. Just because there are some IG that do not does not shadow the fact that the vast majority of them do use bayonets. The wording of the order is maybe something that you all are focusing on a bit too much. The "Incoming!" command is not used when you are being shot at by artillery as the name of it suggests. But the fluff text of the order goes into more detail about what is happening.

I am sorry if this comes off as defensive, but I do not like when not the whole quote is not used, only the part of the quote that supports the debate. I feel like I am defending my opinion instead of debating it which is why this probably sounds defensive.

Yeah, I'm not really seeing the buff to close combat, but a bonus to overwatch (for lasguns only) seems appropriate.

I think an overwatch bonus would be the best route as well. It makes it a real deterrent type order, as opposed to a straight up buff or debuff.

"Yeah, you COULD assault that squad, but remember they get overwatch at full bs/reroll/moreshots/etc. Are you sure you want to risk it?"

I don't see bayonets doing anything against most of the denizens of the 40k universe.

So why do they have them then?

In game terms: A knife is a ccw like any other and CAN wound/kill an enemy model providing the user is strong enough to do so based upon the rules for wounding.

Defensive grenades is a bit strong for the cost of a single order. The over-watch at BS2 is pointless since you could just order FRFSRF and get a far better bonus from the cost of one order.

Now I'm great at thinking up criticisms for proposed rules, but coming up with an alternative isn't my thing. Anyway, here goes - how about the guardsmen get the equivalent of HoW?
It's more fluffy than an extra attack (the idea of charging into bayonettes) but won't be over-powered since I10 strength 3 isn't exactly game breaking. It'd also be more useful than FRFSRF on the handful of occasions when the unit is charged by more than one unit, or when you'd rather issue Fire On My Target on another unit that might kill the charger.

They are preparing for a charge that comes one player turn and one phase after they receive the order for it. Defensive grenades and full BS on overwatch until the start of their next turn sounds about right. Trade off would be they shoot with BS 1 (like they went to ground), or can't shoot, in their shooting phase and cannot launch an assault in their turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know what, you could even have the offensive version: Prepare to charge! The unit may only fire snapshots (BS 1) in the shooting phase but gains the hammer of wrath USR (mentioned before by Griddlelol).

 Bausk wrote:
They are preparing for a charge that comes one player turn and one phase after they receive the order for it. Defensive grenades and full BS on overwatch until the start of their next turn sounds about right. Trade off would be they shoot with BS 1 (like they went to ground), or can't shoot, in their shooting phase and cannot launch an assault in their turn.

This sounds too good, it's basically giving them a 30 point upgrade and FRFSRF for the cost of an order. It'd be really difficult to not make this kind of order underwhelming to the point that no one would ever use it considering the other options, or over-powered for something that is essentially free; like this. Remember, defensive grenades are pretty rare, and getting them on demand, without a points cost is very powerful. Vets have to pay 30pts for the privilege of having the potential to use them in a game, rather than the one time they need them like this.
On the other hand, changing the overwatch BS is just a through-put order, and so can't compete with the other orders which either do essentially the same thing, or do something better depending on the situation.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
They are preparing for a charge that comes one player turn and one phase after they receive the order for it. Defensive grenades and full BS on overwatch until the start of their next turn sounds about right. Trade off would be they shoot with BS 1 (like they went to ground), or can't shoot, in their shooting phase and cannot launch an assault in their turn.

This sounds too good, it's basically giving them a 30 point upgrade and FRFSRF for the cost of an order. It'd be really difficult to not make this kind of order underwhelming to the point that no one would ever use it considering the other options, or over-powered for something that is essentially free; like this. Remember, defensive grenades are pretty rare, and getting them on demand, without a points cost is very powerful. Vets have to pay 30pts for the privilege of having the potential to use them in a game, rather than the one time they need them like this.
On the other hand, changing the overwatch BS is just a through-put order, and so can't compete with the other orders which either do essentially the same thing, or do something better depending on the situation.

Defensive nades are not the only thing Vets get for their 30pts. And the inherent issues with orders is the balance factor, you could even make the order only available to Company commanders to further limit it, compared to get back in the fight for instance. That aside I see the issue with giving too much for whats being received.

Drop the defensive nades and just have the unit fire snaps shots in their shooting phase for full firing on overwatch. It would be a direct trade that you may not even get to use the advantage for. Also with that said it could be available to platoon commanders as its not over powered.

It would make it essentially a situational version of second ed overwatch.

Personally, I think and order like "Affix Bayonets!" should be worded something like this;

Affix Bayonets! On the turn this order is issued, the unit may not Rapid Fire. Until the start of the controlling player's next shooting phase, any model armed with a lasgun gains a +1 bonus to their Strength score in close combat.

This gives the rule an offensive and defensive benefit, while not overshadowing other orders such as FRFSRF. You exchange shooting capability for close combat ability. Why a Strength bonus?

Offensively, you are effectively exchanging your knife for a spear. Spears in Warhammer/40k traditionally give a strength bonus when charging because of the additional force imparted, and because when you swing a polearm you get more leverage. Since the Guard can't take a second close combat weapon, you don't need to include and fiddly rules for making them two-handed.

Defensively, you can set a spear (or bayonetted rifle) against a charge, bracing it against something solid or even just yourself if you take the right stance. This lets you use the physical force of the opponent's charge against themselves as they hurl themselves onto the point of your weapon. With a lasgun, it's light enough and fully automatic enough that restricting Overwatch fire doesn't make much sense - it's pointing at the enemy anyway, and when you set a spear against a charge you tuck it under your arm in any case, meaning that the trigger mechanism isn't going to be far from your hand.

However, Offensive Grenades will force you to duck for cover, negating the ability to properly set against a charge. That's fine, though - the enemy will almost always strike first against you if they have offensive grenades, so there's a better than average chance the model will be dead before it it gets to make its' single S4 attack, and any that DO survive will be in the back rank and therefore quite capable of building momentum as if they were charging before they attack using their Consolidate move.


Defensive Grenades are something completely different, and should stay that way. The way they work just doesn't mesh well with any preparation a unit that doesn't have the correct equipment (IE: some form of snares or grenades!) could make.

Bausk wrote:
Drop the defensive nades and just have the unit fire snaps shots in their shooting phase for full firing on overwatch. It would be a direct trade that you may not even get to use the advantage for. Also with that said it could be available to platoon commanders as its not over powered.

It would make it essentially a situational version of second ed overwatch.

I still think taking an attack away from you opponent is too strong for an order.

Furyou Miko wrote:Personally, I think and order like "Affix Bayonets!" should be worded something like this;

Affix Bayonets! On the turn this order is issued, the unit may not Rapid Fire. Until the start of the controlling player's next shooting phase, any model armed with a lasgun gains a +1 bonus to their Strength score in close combat.

This gives the rule an offensive and defensive benefit, while not overshadowing other orders such as FRFSRF. You exchange shooting capability for close combat ability. Why a Strength bonus?

Offensively, you are effectively exchanging your knife for a spear. Spears in Warhammer/40k traditionally give a strength bonus when charging because of the additional force imparted, and because when you swing a polearm you get more leverage. Since the Guard can't take a second close combat weapon, you don't need to include and fiddly rules for making them two-handed.

Defensively, you can set a spear (or bayonetted rifle) against a charge, bracing it against something solid or even just yourself if you take the right stance. This lets you use the physical force of the opponent's charge against themselves as they hurl themselves onto the point of your weapon. With a lasgun, it's light enough and fully automatic enough that restricting Overwatch fire doesn't make much sense - it's pointing at the enemy anyway, and when you set a spear against a charge you tuck it under your arm in any case, meaning that the trigger mechanism isn't going to be far from your hand.

However, Offensive Grenades will force you to duck for cover, negating the ability to properly set against a charge. That's fine, though - the enemy will almost always strike first against you if they have offensive grenades, so there's a better than average chance the model will be dead before it it gets to make its' single S4 attack, and any that DO survive will be in the back rank and therefore quite capable of building momentum as if they were charging before they attack using their Consolidate move.


Defensive Grenades are something completely different, and should stay that way. The way they work just doesn't mesh well with any preparation a unit that doesn't have the correct equipment (IE: some form of snares or grenades!) could make.

This idea is better. Simpler and not over-powered. My issue with it again is that if the enemy has offensive grenades (as just about everyone does) my guard will still be attacking second against most enemies. The plus 1 strength won't be as effective as FRFSRF, especially as they're losing rapid-fire or other offensive shooting orders I can use in the shooting phase, simply because there will be less guard around the make use of the order. For any sort of defensive order to be worth it, you have to take into account most of the guardsmen will be dead, which is why I said HoW, since they will actually be able to use it.

No matter how much I like this order, I think it's going to be very hard to balance and make sense at the same time.

Well, how about something like this, then;

Hold the Line! The Officer encourages his men to lift their heads after the initial bombardment, getting them back to the step more quickly. Enemies assaulting the ordered unit do not gain the benefits of Offensive Grenades. This order lasts until the start of the controlling player's next shooting phase.