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Hey all,
Way back in the 4th ed 'doctrines' dex, there was a doctrine called Close Order Drill. If every model in the unit was in B2B with another model from the unit, they presented a wall of bayonets to any incoming attacker. If they were in 'close order drill', they all gained +1 Initiative.

Hammer of Wrath is too good - a space marine on a bike will plow through a wall of bayonets no problem. But +1 initiative when receiving the charge seems pretty reasonable.

So, until the beginning of the player's next turn, the unit gains +1 initiative when charged.

Opinions?

 Captain Roderick wrote:
Hey all,
Way back in the 4th ed 'doctrines' dex, there was a doctrine called Close Order Drill. If every model in the unit was in B2B with another model from the unit, they presented a wall of bayonets to any incoming attacker. If they were in 'close order drill', they all gained +1 Initiative.

Hammer of Wrath is too good - a space marine on a bike will plow through a wall of bayonets no problem. But +1 initiative when receiving the charge seems pretty reasonable.

So, until the beginning of the player's next turn, the unit gains +1 initiative when charged.

Opinions?

+1 initiative is certainly more balanced. It gives the guard a chance at combat that they wouldn't normally get. It's not broken either. It also would allow for situations when they are being charged by something at initiative 3 to strike 1st and swing the combat and possibly sweep, or stop themselves from being swept if they lose. I like it.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Bausk wrote:
Drop the defensive nades and just have the unit fire snaps shots in their shooting phase for full firing on overwatch. It would be a direct trade that you may not even get to use the advantage for. Also with that said it could be available to platoon commanders as its not over powered.

It would make it essentially a situational version of second ed overwatch.

I still think taking an attack away from you opponent is too strong for an order.

No ones taking an attack away form anyone, the guard squad is just trading when they use their full BS. Which they may not even get to use if the enemy does not assault. They can only use on the first unit that charges, which could be a throw away unit to soften the guard anyway. Its not terribly over powered and does not make other orders seem useless or less powerful and like all orders its highly situational. If its forced to run the benefits are lost.

I would like to add that they should count as having gone to ground until their opponents assault phase as I think the unit is horribly over exposed otherwise. Essentially they spring up ready to receive the charge and in effect ambushing the assaulting unit, however they never count as being in cover for the purposes of their opponents charging though cover. The Assaulting unit always assault moves as normal and does not receive the negative for charging though cover, illustrating the guard waiting until the last possible moment to spring the ambush.

I'd just have it work like the old Close Order Drill.
If successful, all guardsmen in base to base with at least 1 other guardsmen in the combat phase gain +1 WS and +1 Initiative. This bonus lasts until the start of the next turn.

A dense pack of pointy sticks is a lot more dangerous that a spread out smattering of pointy sticks.

The downside is of course being bunched out screams "heavy flamer me!"

-Matt

So... they throw their knives and they explode?

 Bausk wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

Bausk wrote:
Drop the defensive nades and just have the unit fire snaps shots in their shooting phase for full firing on overwatch. It would be a direct trade that you may not even get to use the advantage for. Also with that said it could be available to platoon commanders as its not over powered.

It would make it essentially a situational version of second ed overwatch.

I still think taking an attack away from you opponent is too strong for an order.

No ones taking an attack away form anyone, the guard squad is just trading when they use their full BS. Which they may not even get to use if the enemy does not assault. They can only use on the first unit that charges, which could be a throw away unit to soften the guard anyway. Its not terribly over powered and does not make other orders seem useless or less powerful and like all orders its highly situational. If its forced to run the benefits are lost.

I would like to add that they should count as having gone to ground until their opponents assault phase as I think the unit is horribly over exposed otherwise. Essentially they spring up ready to receive the charge and in effect ambushing the assaulting unit, however they never count as being in cover for the purposes of their opponents charging though cover. The Assaulting unit always assault moves as normal and does not receive the negative for charging though cover, illustrating the guard waiting until the last possible moment to spring the ambush.

My bad, I misread and thought you were advocating defensive grenades. The BS3 overwatch is still pointless, it's just a toned down version of FRFSRF. There'd never be a reason to use it. The whole point of a defensive order is to make the guardmen do something in the assault, or survive a little more. WS and initiative are the only way I can think to do this.

I think "Affix Your Bayonets!" sounded more badass.

It would be a cool ability in my opinion. If not for standard officers then for a special character (like Al'Rahem's "Like the Wind!")

I think countercharge world be good.


P.S. Too strong of an order... see "First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!". I guess you mean as a whole with the other commands? Well just through this on a special character or something.


I like the idea of massed bayonet charges...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Example character:


Captain Hamshire......125 points
One Platoon Command Squad may replace it's Platoon Commander with Captain Hamshire.

WS 4
BS 4
S 3
T 3
W 2
I 3
A 2
Ld 9
Sv 5+


Special Rules:

Veteran: Captain Hamshire is a hardend leader whose faught in countless horrible wars. Some of his men say you can see horrors of a hundred battles in eyes, his very presence is inspiring. Captain (name) has the 'Fearless' special rule.

Iron Command: Captain Hamshire can issue up to two orders each turn. He has a command radius of 12". (name) can use the Move! Move! Move! order described on page 36. In addition, Captain (name) can use the following unique orders:

Affix your Bayonets!: At Hamshire's order, his followers form a tight phalanx, and prepare for an enemy charge.
If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit gains the 'Counter-Attack" special rule until the start of your next turn.

Charge!: Hamshire raises his saber in the air and yells "Charge!".
If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit immediately charges rolling three dice, and removing the lowest. Keep in mind you may only attempt the charge if it is possible. For purposes of this charge the entire unit is considered to have the 'Hammer of Wrath' special rule.


Wargear

: (Blade with a fancy name) is a power weapon with the 'Fleshbane' special rule.


(I'm not stuck on the name or little fluff I put in there. They are just fillers to show you want I'm talking about.)

Looks like a fun character, but you need to remember that Fleet no longer lets you run and assault - and, in fact, nothing grants that ability, because basically you'd be assaulting up to 18"!

Oh really? Ok, I changed it.

I am having some trouble with seeing why people are thinking that this is too powerful. "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" is an incredibly powerful ability, "Bring It Down" also in amazing and both of these orders seek to overcome the downfalls of Imperial Guard which is low BS. "Get Back In The Fight" is an order designed to overcome the relative low leadership that IG tends to have. All of the orders that IG can issue are very powerful, and they are intended to be such.

Also, keep in mind that any unit can only be issued one order per turn. So if a commander were to issue "Affix Bayonets" to a unit, that unit is not going to then use "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire."

So I guess my question is, why are defensive grenades too powerful for a unit of guardsmen to have?

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

Bausk wrote:
Drop the defensive nades and just have the unit fire snaps shots in their shooting phase for full firing on overwatch. It would be a direct trade that you may not even get to use the advantage for. Also with that said it could be available to platoon commanders as its not over powered.

It would make it essentially a situational version of second ed overwatch.

I still think taking an attack away from you opponent is too strong for an order.

No ones taking an attack away form anyone, the guard squad is just trading when they use their full BS. Which they may not even get to use if the enemy does not assault. They can only use on the first unit that charges, which could be a throw away unit to soften the guard anyway. Its not terribly over powered and does not make other orders seem useless or less powerful and like all orders its highly situational. If its forced to run the benefits are lost.

I would like to add that they should count as having gone to ground until their opponents assault phase as I think the unit is horribly over exposed otherwise. Essentially they spring up ready to receive the charge and in effect ambushing the assaulting unit, however they never count as being in cover for the purposes of their opponents charging though cover. The Assaulting unit always assault moves as normal and does not receive the negative for charging though cover, illustrating the guard waiting until the last possible moment to spring the ambush.

My bad, I misread and thought you were advocating defensive grenades. The BS3 overwatch is still pointless, it's just a toned down version of FRFSRF. There'd never be a reason to use it. The whole point of a defensive order is to make the guardmen do something in the assault, or survive a little more. WS and initiative are the only way I can think to do this.

How is it akin to FRFSRF? Consider the other components in the second paragraph. They get a 6+ cover save in the open, +1 if in cover and +2 if behind an ADL. When the opponent charges they may still get all benefits and movement as if the cover is not there but they also get shot with the full effect of the IG unit . It isin an attempt to stop the assault before it happens, something guard are better at doing that CQC, using a defensive stance. They still receive the charge, if it makes it, with no negatives and while they are preparing to ambush the advancing unit they are prone or hunkered down in cover. I would probably add Wall of fire gets rerolls to wound due to the close proximity of the enemy when they fire.

FRFSRF could help with overwatch, since you already gave the order why doesnt the ranking up help during overwatch?

However if not a "Keep'em Steady boys!" could let them shoot normal BS during overwatch. Fluffy.

What about "Over the top men!" or "Into the breach!" - guardsmen ignore difficult and dangerous terrain

"Let loose the dogs of war!" could give furious charge, maybe +1 attack? however i think people have already said that for "Affix! Bayonets!" its just all about the name of the order i guess.

You know we don't have to keep orders only to command squads. Sergeants can give orders too, like Bastone. However i think thats why hes unqiue but still. What if Commissars, Sergeants, Priests, and commanders all had a different order tree? i know this would make things incredibly complicated but would make for a fun and tactical game where the right order makes a huge difference.

I like the idea of a bonus to Overwatch.

Maybe effected units overwatch at BS2.

Funk3140 wrote:
FRFSRF could help with overwatch, since you already gave the order why doesnt the ranking up help during overwatch?

However if not a "Keep'em Steady boys!" could let them shoot normal BS during overwatch. Fluffy.

What about "Over the top men!" or "Into the breach!" - guardsmen ignore difficult and dangerous terrain

"Let loose the dogs of war!" could give furious charge, maybe +1 attack? however i think people have already said that for "Affix! Bayonets!" its just all about the name of the order i guess.

You know we don't have to keep orders only to command squads. Sergeants can give orders too, like Bastone. However i think thats why hes unqiue but still. What if Commissars, Sergeants, Priests, and commanders all had a different order tree? i know this would make things incredibly complicated but would make for a fun and tactical game where the right order makes a huge difference.

Nice quick, basic order suggestions. But *.

However altering who give orders would be a tad OP and out of character for the guard. They follow the order of the officers, the sergeants make sure the unit carries out the order, the priest preaches imperial gospel to inspire, and Commissars are just there to make sure everyone does their job. Bastone is the exception, not the rule (let alone the example of what a rule should be based on).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I like the idea of a bonus to Overwatch.

Maybe effected units overwatch at BS2.

+1 BS in your shooting phase that applies in the next players assault phase with no other in game effects. Are they allowed to assault? Can they shoot when they receive the order? What do they do to carry out the order in the shooting phase?

* All other order have an effect right then and there, guardsmen leap to their orders not meander about doing other things until the right time comes.