Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2012/08/18 16:46:29
Subject: FFG Star Wars RPG - Edge of the Empire - Dangerous Covenants
In the Star Wars universe, you should always be prepared for violence. From cantinas full of scum to hungry wampas looking for a snack, plenty of things in the galaxy are spoiling for a fight. Sometimes, the only thing you can do is fight back.
Dangerous Covenants is a rules supplement for Edge of the Empire that focuses on helping you fight. New specializations, talents, guns, armor, and vehicles provide a host of new options for players, while GMs are bound to find the advice on themes of cinematic combat and how to organize exciting combat-focused encounters and adventures very useful.
This book features new content for the Hired Gun career, including new Hired Gun centric Motivations, Obligations, and backgrounds. Just because a character is a fighter doesn’t mean he can’t have a deep and interesting backstory, and this book helps players create that for their characters. Meanwhile, Hired Gun characters (or any character, actually) can pick up one of three new specializations. Enforcers, Demolitionists, and Heavies offer three new choices that add a lot of variety to the Hired Gun career.
In addition, Dangerous Covenants also introduces two new, high level advancement opportunities in the form of the Hired Gun’s signature abilities. These abilities are career specific talents that a character can only access once they’ve spent a lot of time and experience investing in a specialization. In return, however, they offer Hired Guns some really potent abilities that can change the course of an entire battle.
Of course, no Hired Gun is going to head into battle without a trusty weapon of some sort. Whether you want to deal out destruction with a heavy weapon like a flechette launcher or a plasma missile, or if you’d prefer to dominate a back alley brawl with a pair of vibro-knucklers, Dangerous Covenants has you covered. In addition, the book introduces some new ships, ranging from small, single-seat starfighters to full-sized cruisers.
When it comes to GM advice and guidance, Dangerous Covenants has a whole range of suggestions. These range from practical details (if a Hired Gun is actually working as a Hired Gun, how much are jobs like protection, mercenary work, and sabotage going to pay?) to overarching campaign guidance, and everything in between.
Star Wars®: Edge of the Empire™ Specialization Decks, available through Print on Demand, provide GMs and players with a fun and easy way to manage character and NPC talents at the gaming table. New and experienced players alike will appreciate these handy reference cards, and GMs will love being able to keep the action moving. You’ll have the text of your talents at your fingertips, leaving you free to focus on the challenges at hand, while art for each talent immerses you even further into the Star Wars universe.
This first rules supplement for Edge of the Empire expands the Explorer career with specializations, new talents, and more. All players will find new character, vehicle, and equipment options, which will aid in their experiences at the Edge of the Empire. GMs will gain new tools to use in crafting exciting and memorable adventures.
The Core Rulebook contains all the information players and GMs need to create from scratch the memorable characters that will populate their campaigns. At the heart of character creation in Edge of the Empire is the idea that each character enters his or her first adventure with a history, and the baggage of some pre-existing obligations.
What caused your character to enter into the nebulous and dangerous world of Edge of the Empire? Was it a single, traumatic event? Was your character put into an untenable situation from which he had to flee? Is your character racing to pay off old debts before those debtors come calling? Your character’s obligations represent the debts he seeks to avoid or repay. They likely impacted your character’s original decision to seek out adventures and the fame and fortune they always seem to promise. And they can definitely shape the course of your character’s life.
Obligations in Edge of the Empire tie the game’s mechanics to a narrative core and help players to develop characters with rich backgrounds and deep investment in the campaign’s events.
Star Wars: Edge of the Empire is the first of three epic roleplaying game installments. Each will be a standalone core rulebook, but will complement the other two to form a single game system. Each of these three planned core rulebooks presents the Star Wars galaxy from a different point of view, and they all take place during the height of the Rebel Alliance’s struggle against the Galactic Empire.
Star Wars: Edge of the Empire is the first of these installments, focusing on the fringes of society, the scum and villainy of the galaxy, and the explorers and colonists of the Outer Rim. In this game, players take on the roles of hard-hearted bounty hunters, roguish scoundrels, charming smugglers, or fearless explorers trying to survive and thrive on the edges of civilization. In the second installment, Star Wars: Age of Rebellion, the players take the fight to the oppressive Galactic Empire as cunning spies, cocky pilots, and dedicated soldiers in the Rebel Alliance.
Finally, in Star Wars: Force and Destiny, the players become figures of legend: the last surviving Force users in the galaxy. Hunted by the Empire, they must stay alive, and more importantly, stay true to the ideals of their forebears—the fabled Jedi. Each of these independent game lines stands alone as a unique gaming experience while fully integrating with the others to form a single unified system. For more on Star Wars: Edge of the Empire, skip below to read our overview.
Looks interesting and all. I hope they release supplements of pre-empire though.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/08/18 17:54:48
Subject: Re:FFG Star Wars "Edge of the Empire" Beta
Definitively interested. Looks like they are using the d100 system I've grown to know and love from WFRP and their 40k games.
What makes me sceptical is the bit about the three main books being "independent but fully integrated" - which to me just sounds as if it would suffer from the same evolutionary differences and potential scope gaps as I see them between, say, Dark Heresy and Deathwatch.
Also not a fan of the "talent tree" stuff. Would have hoped they do it more like in Only War.
Good stuff and bad stuff. I'd at least give it a try before I cast final judgement though. The biggest stumbling block about mixing the books can easily be averted by simple campaign planning, after all - provided the differences actually are as big as they are in 40k.
Personally, I'm also hoping for post- rather than pre-Empire supplements. The Legacy era needs more love!
Is it the WH40K system? If so, I'm definitely not interested.
SAGA was awesome and has sourcebooks for everything I'd want to do. The WH40K system doesn't do anything for me, the only reason I play it at all is homebrewing it back to some d20 system is more work than its worth.
Lynata wrote: Looks like they are using the d100 system I've grown to know and love from WFRP and their 40k games.
It's my understanding that this is not d100 per the 40k line but rather custom-dice based a la the latest WHFRPG.
Poison wrote: It'd have to be amazingly good to beat SAGA for me.
I also love Saga Edition. I see it as the pinnacle of WotC's d20 products lines. That said, the era of d20 games is over and it hasn't been long enough for a resurgence. I have been intrigued by the 3rd ed. WHFRPG dice system but the put off by the rest of the boardgamey components. I'm hoping this line will scale back some of that but I'm excited about the dice. Like Lynata, I'm a little wary of the talent trees. It looks a little stifling on the page.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/18 22:25:15
My complaint with the W40K system is the swingy nature of the dice. Its hard to tell a story when you have no idea whether your group has any chance of success.
I remember entire sessions of Dark Heresy where no one succeeded on a roll for the whole session.
Poison wrote: My complaint with the W40K system is the swingy nature of the dice. Its hard to tell a story when you have no idea whether your group has any chance of success.
I would think in a % based system it should be even easier to figure out the chance for characters to succeed. The target number is also the chance to succeed. Need a 25 or less on the dice? 25% chance.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Poison wrote: My complaint with the W40K system is the swingy nature of the dice. Its hard to tell a story when you have no idea whether your group has any chance of success.
I would think in a % based system it should be even easier to figure out the chance for characters to succeed. The target number is also the chance to succeed. Need a 25 or less on the dice? 25% chance.
The problem isnt figuring out the % chance to succeed, the issue is usually having a %30 unmodified chance for success. In Dark Heresy, everyone was always incompetent, it seemed. From what Manchu just showed, though, I have no clue what sort of difficulty that has, it doesnt look like WH40K.
This video talks very intelligently about WHFRPG 3E dice:
BTW, this guy is one of the smartest people posting about RPGs on YT. He has more than a few vids up on WHFRPG 3E if you want to know more on the subject. I can't wait to hear him weigh in on Edge of the Empire as his favorite RPG was the WEG Star Wars RPG.
As someone who has run and played FFG's d100 system through all the 40kRPGs, I have to say that I absolutely hate the system and not just because FFG's quality control went out the window when they rushed Deathwatch and Black Crusade.
The system uses some pretty fiddly calculations and systems, and has that really annoying low chance of success for everything.
However, the system they were using for WHFRP seemed silly to me at first with the custom dice, but after he explained it, sounds like a great system that keeps the numbers and crunch to a reasonable amount.
Sure, it takes time to understand, but the custom components drastically reduces the need for fiddly calculations, and adds a probability curve to the results.
It is very components heavy with the rest of the game it seems, but that's FFG.
So, I'm actually really looking forward to the new star wars rules.
Poison wrote:It'd have to be amazingly good to beat SAGA for me.
Do you like proprietary (ie. custom designed) dice and card systems that determine everything? Like this game.
Poison wrote:My complaint with the W40K system is the swingy nature of the dice. Its hard to tell a story when you have no idea whether your group has any chance of success.
As mentioned above, you should always know exactly how much of a chance any given roll (other than damage) has given that it's a percentile system. Damage rolls can be "swingy", as you put it, but some of that swingy nature is being bred out of damage rolls.
Poison wrote:The problem isnt figuring out the % chance to succeed
A moment ago the trouble was having no idea if you have a chance of success. Don't move the goal posts.
Poison wrote:...the issue is usually having a %30 unmodified chance for success. In Dark Heresy, everyone was always incompetent, it seemed.
Modifiers come fast and furious in a game like DH, and outside of a few early sessions I doubt people will sit there wiffing all their attacks for long. And if you're tired of missing everything you do (because your GM forgets that he sets the difficulty of any Test, and can rule something easier or harder than whatever your standard stats are), then play Deathwatch. You'll never miss in that game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vertrucio wrote:...and not just because FFG's quality control went out the window when they rushed Deathwatch and Black Crusade.
If you think those games were rushed then you really have no clue.
Vertrucio wrote:The system uses some pretty fiddly calculations and systems, and has that really annoying low chance of success for everything.
Success and failure is often up to the GM to determine. Fiddly calculations? Most of the time it's adding units of 10 to things. +10, +20, +30 and so on. That's fiddly?
Manchu wrote: This video talks very intelligently about WHFRPG 3E dice:
*watches video*
Keeping in mind that my issues with WFRP3rd are more to do with my views on rules consistency and not the dice, but all of that just seems like a whole lotta busy work. From that explanation it seems like its an overly complicated system to achieve the same result that you'd get from just rolling a d100.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2012/08/19 11:16:15
I have to agree with HBMC on this. If your GM is giving your rank one characters hard tests, it's kind of your GM's fault for designing a session where you would fail.
I know that my low-level Only War players have no problems passing most of my tests unless I WANT to challenge them.
For example, I made a willpower + 10 check to resist gaining corruption/insanity after they blew up a shokk attack gun [don't ask, it's a long story], which despite being +10 was actually a hard check because most non-psyker classes have a hard time getting willpower bonuses (Thus most of them were testing in the 30-40 range, which is not a favorable test). Most of them had to use a fate point, and one of them (our techie) still got his corruption points. But that was actually a better result than I intended.
If a GM isn't taking this kind of consideration when designing tests, they might be playing it wrong.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/08/19 15:54:20
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
H.B.M.C. wrote: From that explanation it seems like its an overly complicated system to achieve the same result that you'd get from just rolling a d100.
I really disagree. Dice pool building is fundamentally different from modifying percentage rolls. With WHFRP 3E, the player and DM negotiate rolls at the level of mechanics as well as narrative whereas most of that negotiation in a d100 system is narrative. Now, I'm not saying one is better than the other. They have different implications and foster different tones, which will be more or less appropriate to different settings. But you cannot tuck all of the intricacy of building dice pools into d100 and call it "busy work" -- unless you simply don't understand one or the other or both.
Hmmm, new star Wars RP, I would be interested. The D&D based one was doing my head in a little, hell if it works, might convince me to give Warhammer a go.
"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.
Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
I'm not gonna type up a big reply to you, HBMC, but I did not shift any goalposts. I said the results were swingy, and it was hard to know what the results would be.
What I meant by that was, you'd have 5 people with search or inquiry of 25 or so, making a challenging test. They might find something, statistically, I think there is a fair shot at success. On the other hand, a lot of 25% tests fail, because, you know, its a 1 in 4 chance to succeed. I certainly know the chance to succeed, its 25%, and 4 or 5 people can try it.
On the other hand, I saw whole sessions where we didnt have anyone succeed on those rolls. Yes, maybe the GM was bad, and it should have been easier, I dunno.
I also never mentioned combat, so I am not sure if that was a veiled shot at calling me a rollplayer or munchkin, or an assumption that all I cared about was combat, but it missed the mark.
Deathwatch is unappealing for other reasons, including I dislike space marines and half the group is women that likes to play women.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/19 19:04:13
Manchu wrote: I really disagree. Dice pool building is fundamentally different from modifying percentage rolls. With WHFRP 3E, the player and DM negotiate rolls at the level of mechanics as well as narrative whereas most of that negotiation in a d100 system is narrative. Now, I'm not saying one is better than the other. They have different implications and foster different tones, which will be more or less appropriate to different settings. But you cannot tuck all of the intricacy of building dice pools into d100 and call it "busy work" -- unless you simply don't understand one or the other or both.
I dislike systems that add tons of additional rolls. It’s why I didn’t like the “scatter every blast marker” rules from 40K. They tend to slow things down for no real gain. I may adore the 2nd Ed 40K vehicle rules, but of all the things in there the thing I miss the least are the multi-dice penetration rolls. Now the reason I call this system ‘busy work’ is because it seems like a complicated solution to a simple problem. To elaborate:
I want to do Action X.
Percentile System (like DH): I look at the stat I’m rolling against, the GM lets me know how difficult the Test is, I roll my percentile dice, and then I compare the scores. How well or how badly I did are determined by how many 10’s above or below the target number I got (this could also apply to a D20 system... or hell even a D6 system!).
Custom Dice System (like WFRP3rd): I look at the stat I’m rolling against to work out how many of Dice Type A I can roll. I then also check my stance to see how many of Dice Type B I can roll. I negotiate with the GM to determine how many of Dice Types C and D I can add to the pool. I then roll those dice and look at the various symbols. I then cancel out the various conflicting symbols, checking then work out my final amount of successes or failures, how many boons or banes I have, whether I got success+, or twin-tailed comets or Chaos Stars or anything else. And then I compare them to my action and work out what it does.
In the first system I made a single dice roll and it told me everything I needed to know about my success or failure. In the second example I had to roll a bunch of dice, compare symbols, work out differences and cancel out results before finally arriving at the same result as the percentile rolls – was I successful, and if so how successful was I.
A complicated solution to a simple problem. Busy work.
Poison wrote:I'm not gonna type up a big reply to you, HBMC, but I did not shift any goalposts. I said the results were swingy, and it was hard to know what the results would be.
Which they aren’t (except in the case of damage results, something which I already covered) and which it isn’t. I don’t know why you think it’s hard to know what the results on a percentile-based system would be.
Poison wrote:What I meant by that was, you'd have 5 people with search or inquiry of 25 or so, making a challenging test. They might find something, statistically, I think there is a fair shot at success. On the other hand, a lot of 25% tests fail, because, you know, its a 1 in 4 chance to succeed. I certainly know the chance to succeed, its 25%, and 4 or 5 people can try it.
On the other hand, I saw whole sessions where we didnt have anyone succeed on those rolls. Yes, maybe the GM was bad, and it should have been easier, I dunno.
Why are they 25% chance tests? Why are they always Challenging? What modifiers did the GM apply, if any? As I (and Mel) said above, the GM determines difficulty. If your GM was just making you roll strait up stat checks with no modifiers due to circumstance then, quite simply, they were Doing it Wrong™.
Poison wrote:I also never mentioned combat, so I am not sure if that was a veiled shot at calling me a rollplayer or munchkin, or an assumption that all I cared about was combat, but it missed the mark.
It wasn’t a shot at anything. Calm down.
Poison wrote:Deathwatch is unappealing for other reasons, including I dislike space marines and half the group is women that likes to play women.
Neither of which are the fault of the game, but I doubt (hope?) you weren’t implying that.
I never said any of the 40k games was a bad game. I said I didnt prefer a Dark Heresy style system for Star Wars, as Star Wars is heroic, and Dark Heresies style doesnt fit.
On the other hand, since thats been cleared up, and it isnt using the WH40K system, I have no idea if it'll be good or not, but it has big shoes to fill, because I thought Saga was pretty close to perfect.
Others liked the West End Games D6 Star Wars, and never switched to Saga, so to each their own.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 01:41:10
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
"If you don't think that Deathwatch and Black Crusade were rushed, or suffered from some pretty big quality control issues, then you really have no clue."
And that is how you sound HBMC. Read that back to yourself and tell me you're proud of being the typical RPG gamer stereotype.
All systems have upsides and downsides, and the 40Krpgs have serious downsides. But, I wouldn't have bothered running it for multiple campaigns if the system didn't work on some level. But don't try to tell me, or anyone, that it didn't have serious problems.
But, so does any system.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 03:37:29
HBMC helped work on them, if memory serves. He would know if they were rushed or not.
And they really weren't rushed from my experience, from you know, actually playing the fething game and all that unimportant nonsense. Sure, I prefer Dark Heresy and Only War, but Deathwatch, Rogue Trader, and Black Crusade are perfectly valid systems. That they lend themselves to a roleplay style I don't enjoy as much doesn't mean that they're somehow "rushed".
Because by that definition, I find every d20 system ever made to be "rushed". And yeah, each core book is designed for a different campaign style, anywhere from DH's investigative, to DW's Hack'n'Slash, to Rogue Trader's space pirates... I don't really care for hack and slash, myself (I have video games if I want to do that), but plenty of others love it.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 03:46:25
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Just to clarify: I had nothing to do with Deathwatch’s development (The Achilus Assault was the first book I was involved in, both as a play-tester and proof-reader), but I did play-test Black Crusade and I am one of the writers for Only War.
Look, I'm not against proprietary dice systems. Super Dungeon Explore uses that and its simple enough to use. My issue is when you have to roll 4-6 dice to achieve roughly the same thing you’d do by rolling 2d6's/2d10’s/1d20. I just don’t see the point.
It truly is a strange day when Mel and I are coming down on the same side of an issue.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 04:40:24
Now, if you said something like "I want to play superman, but Dark Heresy is designed for you to play Batman instead", I'd see your point.
But both are heroic.
More like, I want to play Batman, but Dark Heresy is designed for me to play a common thug, who works for the Riddler.
Thats not to say playing a common thug can't be fun, I've played, and had fun with Dark Heresy, but it'd be the last game that came to mind to try and build Luke, Han, Leia, and the gang.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I agree with HBMC on the busy work dice thing, if its as he's described, I fail to see the point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 04:56:50
Poison wrote: More like, I want to play Batman, but Dark Heresy is designed for me to play a common thug, who works for the Riddler.
That is an incredibly ignorant statement.
One can EASILY be heroic in Dark Heresy. If your GM refuses to allow that, take it up with them.
If you really had to recreate "Luke, Han, and Leia" (I'll withhold comments about my opinions on this kind of roleplay), Han would use the Scum class, Leia would probably be either an adept or cleric with the noble born homeworld, and Luke would be a very martial psyker who focuses on telekinesis.
Hell, scum actually fits Han perfectly, as does the ascension class for scum, Desperado.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 05:09:58
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Yeah, the problem isnt in the classes, its in the scale. At rank 1, you can't succeed at anything, as your skill is always around 25%. But, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, and clearly its your favorite game system, and we'll just continue arguing around the same topic.
I think Saga fits Star Wars best. You have a better than 50% chance to succeed most tasks at level 1, everything scales up fairly evenly, and I've seen Saga games succeed well, where I've seen DH games go for 2 sessions and all the players quit in frustration.
I fail to see where my statement is ignorant. You DO factually play a thug who works for an "Inquisitor". Its not an ignorant statement, its in fact a true fact.
Batman hasn't got anyone telling him what to do, not even Superman or the President. He does what he wants, its part of being Batman. He can flip off Superman if he likes.
Your little scum can flip off his inquisitor, too, if he wants to take a dirt nap.
Anyway, I'm done arguing about whether Dark Heresy is the be all and end all game system to run all games in. Obviously its fans think so, which makes sense, since its their favorite. I don't, for many of the reasons I've given in this thread. Nuff said.
Poison wrote: Yeah, the problem isnt in the classes, its in the scale. At rank 1, you can't succeed at anything, as your skill is always around 25%
Actually, on average it's ~31% (2d10+20 averages out at around 31).
Not a huge difference, but it does make a difference.
And again, because you aren't reading what I'm posting, I'll repeat myself:
Melissia wrote: I have to agree with HBMC on this. If your GM is giving your rank one characters hard tests, it's kind of your GM's fault for designing a session where you would fail.
I know that my low-level Only War players have no problems passing most of my tests unless I WANT to challenge them.
For example, I made a willpower + 10 check to resist gaining corruption/insanity after they blew up a shokk attack gun [don't ask, it's a long story], which despite being +10 was actually a hard check because most non-psyker classes have a hard time getting willpower bonuses (Thus most of them were testing in the 30-40 range, which is not a favorable test). Most of them had to use a fate point, and one of them (our techie) still got his corruption points. But that was actually a better result than I intended.
If a GM isn't taking this kind of consideration when designing tests, they might be playing it wrong.
Just because your GM is a complete incompetent and doesn't take in to account the level of the party in designing encounters doesn't mean that the game itself is bad. That can happen in ANY game system, including your beloved (ugh) Saga. Even if your GM refuses to adjust for level, they can always allow you to start out with more xp for a higher level game anyway (although a GM so inflexible as to refuse to adjust for character power levels isn't likely to be competent enough to allow characters to play at an XP level that matches what he wants to GM at)..
Also, the game doesn't actually require you to play as a member of the Inquisition, and I've run and played several games where we were not.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 05:30:45
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
.png)
