FFG Star Wars RPG - Edge of the Empire - Dangerous Covenants

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**Lynata**

Manchu wrote:Is that a matter of canon or just the magic of cinema?

A little bit of both, tbh. There are instances in the EU where stormtroopers are represented as quite capable compared to the average guy (with the planet Cadia often being mentioned as the elite academy churning out the galaxy's best soldiers), and I think their stats in the existing P&Ps matched that impression.

Stormtrooper as protagonist.

That said, it is also true that the legions changed, thus giving further explanation to the difference in capabilities, first by introducing new clone templates, then recruiting non-clones:

"After the Kamino Uprising, the Emperor decided that an army of genetically identical soldiers would be too susceptible to corruption. Future troopers would be cloned from a variety of templates. Though the 501st itself remained pure, the rest of the Imperial army gradually became more and more diverse.
We never really got used to the new guys."
-- Star Wars Battlefront II : Journals of the 501st

In the Legacy era, set ~120 years after the movies, the Stormtrooper Corps has completely merged with the Imperial Army, so that Stormtroopers are even more common grunts (now being used both as front line infantry as well as shock troops), but still with remarkable training. In that time, they're basically the Empire's USMC.

(also note: Femtrooper done right)

**Manchu**

Lynata wrote:with the planet Cadia often being mentioned as the elite academy

Do what now?

Lynata wrote:(also note: Femtrooper done right)

Ambiguous breastplate is ambiguous.

**Lynata**

Manchu wrote:
Lynata wrote:with the planet Cadia often being mentioned as the elite academy
Do what now?

Ugh, sorry. I meant Carida.

Pretty close, though, when you think about it!

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Carida

Spoiler:

**Manchu**

Lynata wrote:

Lol no worries. Also, in that pic with the femtrooper -- what is Luke doing dressed as a stormtrooper obsessed with a knife in the future? Legacy must be pretty far out!

In all seriousness, I cannot wait to play this game. I really hope FFG goes ahead and manufactures dice ahead of the launch so the beta meisters can roll sans stickers/conversion charts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also this is a good explanation of the way the custom dice system operates just with regard to the axes of "intentional" and "unforeseen" success/failure (taken from the FFG forum):

Rather than debating bonuses, or having to memorize a bible's worth of modifiers for lighting conditions, quality of gear, conditional modifiers, etc to a skill test…. You simply run down a list of conditions on the spot. Let's say you want to do an Astrogation check because the Hutt's gangsters are ON your behind. What the heck was in that crate?!
We'll set the base difficulty at 3 Challenge.

Do you have training in Astrogation? Expertise + Characteristic Dice.

Do you have a nav computer? Advantage.

Are you crunched for time? Disadvantage.

Are you traveling a well known trade route? Advantage.

Are you trying to shake pursuit with non-standard micro jumps? Disadvantage.

Are you being assisted by Chewbacca? Advantage

Roll the pile

You succeeded! But you rolled a *critical bad symbol*.

The good news is that you arrived safely 3AU from Ord Mantel's star and the gangsters don't appear to be following you. The bad news is that there seems to be a fire in the hyperdrive chamber and the ships computer has initiated an auto-pilot lockout and your credentials don't seem to work to unlock it.

Sure you could wade through charts (or memorize modifiers if that is your want). But the above can be completed by the seat of a GM's pants without any concern over applying the wrong modifier or arguing with a rules' lawyer over minutiae. Dice pool games are not for everyone, but this is an intuitive system that makes interpreting the dice part of the game instead of just that thing you have to do to move on.

From here.

**Lynata**

Manchu wrote:Also, in that pic with the femtrooper -- what is Luke doing dressed as a stormtrooper obsessed with a knife in the future? Legacy must be pretty far out!

Nah, that's just a Mando who ended up serving in that squad: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hondo_Karr

Manchu wrote:I really hope FFG goes ahead and manufactures dice ahead of the launch so the beta meisters can roll sans stickers/conversion charts.

Hmm, did they announce they were going to produce special dice for it? Will it be a real box, like the Dragon Age RPG?

I'm still somewhat split on the mechanics. I really like d100, but I'm also intrigued by the concept of dice pools. Guess I'll just have to give it a try and then see what "feels" better to me.
Thanks for posting that example, btw!

**Manchu**

What I really like about that example is you can easily contrast the static modifier approach and the dice pool approach. With the former, that scenario boils down to (using d20 as our example context) 2 - 2 + 2 - 2 + 2 = 2. All of those plot elements and you just add 2 to your ability bonus-modified d20 roll. That is way boring. but what if each of those +2's and -2's is a die roll instead? In that way, each circumstantial aspect of the situation is "in controversy." The nav computer, for example, is certainly hypothetically advantageous to have in that situation but there is also a chance that it doesn't help -- and in that sense, the players are encouraged by the outcome on the dice to think about all those circumstances that go into building the dice pool: if I fail my roll despite have more advantages than disadvantages, then what happened to my nav computer? Isn't this a well-known route? Chewie, I thought you were on this! Simultaneously, the players will narrate plot based on this failed roll, emphasizing the complexity of micro-jump calculations and the urgency and anxiety fostered by being short on time. And that's just what we get looking at the intentional success/failure determination! To me, that's dice doing a lot of work.

**Melissia**

Which is something that any GM in dark heresy can easily do if they want to, and frequently something that my GMs (and myself) do. The GM decides what modifiers there are, after all. Including if the modifier is good or bad, or if it's random. If you want a random modifier, you can tell your players to roll a d10, and then have 1-5 be a negative modifier, and 6-10 be a positive one. It's actually something I've done to see who gets corruption and insanity points.

FFG's d100 system gives a lot of free reign to the GM, for good reason.

**Poison**

Sounds like Manchu's point is because the different modifiers are on different types of dice, if the roll fails because the Nav computer blew up, you can see it right there on the dice, not because the GM randomly decided to tell you you're Nav computer blew up.

For other games, you'd need a lookup table, instead of using the dice result. Thats what I take from it, anyway. Not sure I care for that level of dice complexity, but its interesting.

Not sure why Dark Heresy is being brought into it again, the system being used isn't Dark Heresy, so it doesn't really matter what can be done by Dark Heresy.

**Manchu**

Melissia wrote: If you want a random modifier.

But that's not what I want or what I am talking about. I am talking about a situational modifier, something that reflects the circumstances. The issue is not randomly determining whether you get +2 or -2 (or whatever the number is) but rather whether a circumstantial advantage pays off or not -- and, moreover, the mechanic making that result "stand out" as a discrete aspect of the action instead of folding it into a monolithic calculation (like how those five different circumstances above end up as just "+2").

@Poison: I think the complexity of the system is front-loaded. Once you get used to thinking about the dice as more central to the game (and get used to the symbols) I don't think it will feel complex so much as intuitive.

**Melissia**

Manchu wrote:
Melissia wrote: If you want a random modifier.
But that's not what I want or what I am talking about. I am talking about a situational modifier, something that reflects the circumstances.

So am I.

**Manchu**

It seems to me that you're just randomly determining whether to modify the result with a positive or negative static number.

**Melissia**

Manchu wrote:
It seems to me that you're just randomly determining whether to modify the result with a positive or negative static number.

Yes, just as you explained it here in this sentence:

Manchu wrote:
The nav computer, for example, is certainly hypothetically advantageous to have in that situation but there is also a chance that it doesn't help

A random chance. And this one:

Manchu wrote:
but what if each of those +2's and -2's is a die roll instead?

Dice roll = random chance. And this one:

Manchu wrote:
The issue is [...] whether a circumstantial advantage pays off or not

Having it pay off or not = random chance. And several others.

Meanwhile, arguments such as this one:

Manchu wrote:
if I fail my roll despite have more advantages than disadvantages, then what happened to my nav computer? Isn't this a well-known route? Chewie, I thought you were on this! Simultaneously, the players will narrate plot based on this failed roll, emphasizing the complexity of micro-jump calculations and the urgency and anxiety fostered by being short on time.

Are rather silly, because that is based on the players and the GM, not the dice. We do this kind of roleplaying all the time in our Rogue Trader game. And it's not only likely that many player groups will not play the way you envision it, it's a 100% probability.

If a group doesn't care enough, is led by a less than competent GM, or is inexperienced, it's very easy for them to miss cues like that.

**Manchu**

An advantage die tracks whether and to what extent a favorable circumstance actually lends an advantage in resolving action and has nothing to do with randomizing between a negative and positive modifier. You also misunderstand my argument about dice and narrative. The issue is not that dice generate narrative but rather that dice can prompt narrative. This particular system lends itself to more particular prompts because -- at least at a most basic level -- dice are more heavily involved. In d20 and d100 systems, dice don't matter as much. What is important in those games is the effect of static modifiers on rolls. Finally, we need to look at systems separately from the characteristics of any particular group of hypothetical players.

**kronk**

I received a copy at GenCon. I have not had an opportunity to read much of it, and probably won't until Sunday. Maybe. I also want to read Fear to Tread and the Games Day anthology book I got at GenCon.

Our group is wanting to try this out, and it will possibly replace our Battle Tech RPG to fill our Sci-Fi RPG needs.

I'm very excited by this. At GenCon, I went to one of the dice booths to buy the dice I need for the stickers (Manchu showed a picture in the first page of this thread). I might put them on this weekend. It seems pretty abstract, though. I'm so used to 3rd edition D&D, BattleTech/MechWarrior, and Pathfinder RPG's where movement is covered in painstaking detail and this book seems very "free flowing". The GM needs to be very detailed about his description of rooms and such or risk pissing off players. "Nuh-uh! I'm at least 20' away from that thermal detonator!"

**Melissia**

Manchu wrote:
The issue is not that dice generate narrative but rather that dice can prompt narrative.

I full well know that's what you're talking about.

But I have to ask you, what makes you think that this is not the case with d100 games? Because what you described is exactly what happens in our rogue trader game, without needing some busywork extra dice. You're not really making a good argument for why this kind of game system does it better than the d100 system.

**Manchu**

kronk wrote:
The GM needs to be very detailed about his description of rooms and such or risk pissing off players.

I think the key is to err towards players being able to do more rather than less. I have been playing a lot of Basic D&D from 1979 (or more precisely, the retroclone called Labyrinth Lord) and so far we haven't encountered any of the problems that 3.5/Pathfinder "solve for" by making things like movement more explicit.

Melissia wrote:
But I have to ask you, what makes you think that this is not the case with d100 games? Because what you described is exactly what happens in our rogue trader game, without needing some busywork extra dice. You're not really making a good argument for why this kind of game system does it better than the d100 system.

Well, I'm not actually trying to argue that this game is better than a game using the d100 system as I have painstakingly pointed out throughout the thread. What I have said time and again is that this game does it differently. The emphasis is on dice rolls prompting narrative instead of the modification of dice rolls prompting narrative. I've tried to illustrate the difference by contrasting a net static modifier against rolling advantage and disadvantage dice.

**kronk**

I attended the IN-Flight Report for Fantasy Flight Games at GenCon. Here is some information you might like.

Chris Peterson, CEO presented. Chris Gullimer (sp?), a Lucas Arts rep, was in the front row to answer a few questions about the license. There were also a handful of FFG employees and game developers to answer game specific questions.

Edge of the Empire
* Covers Smugglers, fringe planets. There are force attuned characters, Imperials, and Rebels, too.
* Has star ships, but not large capital ships.
* Imagine Rogue Trader but for Star Wars...or something.
* Early 2013 release. You can buy the Beta book now for $30.
*The game uses special narrative dice. D6s, D8's, and D12's with special marks and gak.
*All of these games will be 100% Cross Compatible.

Age of Rebellion
* 2014
* Large Capital Ships. Space Warfare. Stuff like that

Force of Destiny
* 2015
* Mother fething Jedi

**Poison**

Sounds like an interesting schedule

**endtransmission**

Sadly I don't think either of you is going to convince the other that you're right... but from what little exposure I've had to the WFRP 3 dice pools and think it will fit the Star Wars universe nicely as it does seem to offer a more storytelling feel than simple +2, -4 modifiers ever can to me.

I look forward to hearing more about how the new Star Wars system runs as I've a small group that might well be up for trying this

The Only War beta gives people the money they paid for the beta pdf off the price of the full version once it is released. Have they said anything about this for this one? I'm assuming not given that it's a printed book

**Manchu**

There is some rumor that folks who buy the beta can later get errata, although in what form I have no idea. LucasFilm nixed having a pdf version of the rules so I am wondering how that will affect supplemental material like errata/FAQs. But no, buying the beta paperback is not a coupon against the eventual hardcover final release.

**H.B.M.C.**

LucasFilm nixed a PDF release? I wonder why.

I can imagine that the weekly updates will be done in the same manner as the Only War Beta (which finishes on Friday - get your final submissions in quick!).

**Balance**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
LucasFilm nixed a PDF release? I wonder why.

Which, sadly, means there will be a free PDF release anyway, that is probably slightly poorer quality. FFG (and Lucasfilm) get nothing.

**Manchu**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
LucasFilm nixed a PDF release? I wonder why.

The rumor goes because LucasFilm structures their licenses by medium, meaning that a PDF is part of a separate digital license.

Balance wrote:
Which, sadly, means there will be a free PDF release anyway, that is probably slightly poorer quality. FFG (and Lucasfilm) get nothing.

Can you demonstrate a positive correlation between a company not selling a pdf and IP piracy? I think that is far from self-evident.

**Noisy_Marine**

Manchu wrote:
Force Unleashed II begins on Kamino, with Vader using their cloning facilities to allegedly (I haven't finished the game yet so no one spoil it for me) recreate his secret apprentice, Starkiller.

Oh, I was wondering how they managed a sequel after the light side ending to the first game.

I dunno about this Edge of the Empire. I'm not a big fan of special dice, and this might be another component heavy game like WFRP 3E. Not good! That's why I'm avoiding 3E and hoarding my 2E books.

**Manchu**

The beta version of the game is not as component-heavy as WHFRP 3E. There are only propriety dice and no cards or chits.

**Noisy_Marine**

Manchu wrote:
The beta version of the game is not as component-heavy as WHFRP 3E. There are only propriety dice and no cards or chits.

I would be willing to give it a shot then.

**H.B.M.C.**

Manchu wrote:
Can you demonstrate a positive correlation between a company not selling a pdf and IP piracy? I think that is far from self-evident.

Let's face it - there's going to be a PDF whether it's officially released as one or not.

**Manchu**

I agree with that. What I disagree with is that PDF sales are some kind of check on piracy or that deciding not to sell PDF versions invites piracy.

**Poison**

I would say deciding to not sell a PDF means even those who would choose to pay for a pdf version will pirate it, because they want a PDF.

Sell PDF - Those who are honest will buy it. Dishonest people will pirate it.

Don't Sell PDF - Honest people who want or need a pdf and would be willing to pay for it will pirate it. Dishonest people of course will still pirate it.

One of these options makes the company money. Neither option prevents piracy.

**kronk**

Poison wrote:

One of these options makes the company money. Neither option prevents piracy.

As Manchu said, in this particular case, FFG would have to get a separate license or an addendum to their current license with Lucas Arts to do a pdf, so it's a moot point I think.