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CCS - power fist, standard, medic
Priest - eviscerator

10x stormies - 2x flamers
10x stormies - 2x meltas
10x stormies - 2x meltas

Veterans - carapace, 3x plasma
Veterans - carapace, 3x melta
Veterans - carapace, 3x melta
Veterans - carapace, 3x grenade launchers
Veterans - carapace, 3x sniper rifles.

Leman Russ Punisher, hull heavy bolter, heavy bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Exterminator, hull lascannon
Leman Russ Exterminator, hull lascannon


86 bodies still means a foot horde, and everything locked in carapace means I'd be able to actually GO somewhere, rather than being stuck hiding in ruins. Decently overlapping fire, the stormies for flexibility, and a dash of CC just in case.

There's only one problem. This list is 30 points over.

But it's so tight that I really don't know where to take them. The vets are already at the basement of their firepower, so no points there, and I don't want to lose the only CC I have, and I'm loathe to touch the stormies at all, given how phenomenal they've generally been so far for me. That sort of just leaves the tanks, which I'm also squeamish about losing points from. If I drop the hull lascannons, there go my last lascannons, which I don't like at all. If I lose the punisher I lose what has, so far, been my best anti-flier weapon.

What to do?

---

I guess perhaps drop an exterminator in favor of another 3x plasma carapace vet squad and a lascannon for the snipers? Same lascannon, same S7 shooting. More guys but less range.

If I were looking to cut points, I would probably reevaluate your HQ selection. Right now, your CCS is the only unit in your army with 5+ armor saves (albeit with FNP as well), it contains your Warlord, and it is the only CC unit in your army. I have a feeling that these factors will often combine to get them killed horribly before they do anything.

The main other thing I can think of would be to drop the sniper vets and replace them with 8 Ratlings (who often have the same or better saves thanks to Stealth), but this would lose you a scoring unit.

I haven't actually had problems keeping my CCS alive until it has something to charge. In any case, 5+ Sv with a 5+ FNP is better (.5 vs .44), and works against all weapons, regardless of Ap. I'm a bit loathe to be losing my bodyguard, but that's a 15 points I REALLY need for other things.

As for the ratlings, they take up an elite slot. All my elites are going to stormies. There's no way that 8 ratlings are going to outperform 10 melta stormies. Had I the slots, I'd consider it, but as is...

Why don't you drop carapace off the sniper vets? They'll likely be sitting back in cover anyway. Another option is one stormtrooper off each squad. It shouldn't make or break those squads.

30pts over? Easy, bye bye medic. 30pts for a 5+ FNP on 6 guys? Not great value for money there.

I would drop the priest as well and use the pts to get some real firepower in the squads. Grenade launchers? Snipers? Horrible weapons. Why no weapons on the CCS? Wasted special weapon slots IMO.

 Ailaros wrote:
As for the ratlings, they take up an elite slot. All my elites are going to stormies. There's no way that 8 ratlings are going to outperform 10 melta stormies. Had I the slots, I'd consider it, but as is...

Oh, derp. Forgot about that.

Honestly, aside from your HQ, I am most skeptical of the grenade launcher and sniper rifle vets. I don't see these units doing very much in normal games, even under ideal conditions. Why not drop one of these units, give the other one three plasma guns, and use the extra points for some heavy weapon upgrades or something?

well, the troops choice in this list has more firepower than my current troops choices, so I'm not that loathe to take a unit of snipers to camp an objective or GL's to try and scratch HP off of stuff.

If I dropped FNP, though, I would start to become concerned for the health (excuse the pun) of the squad without a medic. Of course, if I dropped the priest, then I wouldn't have a CC unit at all in my entire army, and I don't want that, at least, not yet.

I suppose dropping two stormies would fix the problem, but it would also make me kind of sad. Flawed... squad sizes... make me... ...

My concern with dropping a vet squad for guns is that I'm already on the low end of the body count. I still need to be flirting with triple digits or I'm just not going to have the numbers to make it work.

Looks like a fun list, i'm exicted to see it in one of your battle reports!

About the 30 points, i'll echo Biophysical about dropping the carapace on then snipers, placing them in ruins will give them a 4+ save anyways, also i wouldent suggest you drop the snipers they come in handy when somkething like a dreadknight appears on the board.

One more thing, you said that grenade launcher we're crappy weapons, i'm intrested to know why they have been included in this list.

I know, I KNOW. Grenade launchers are still pants, dammit!

... but what else am I supposed to put in there?

Plus, BS4 krak is going to at least threaten AV10, and since most AV10 only has 2 HP, I feel like having that kind of concentration... might... work.

I'll just have to hold my nose until I can find even MORE points to replace them.

Don't sweat it, i used to take grenade launchers in ALL my squads when i started out

That concentration of krak sounds good, plus you can always through out mini blasts

I have to second dropping the medic. T3 is easy to double out preventing FNP, and that 5+ will not keep them alive through a torrent of fire. A well placed outflank, deep strike or drop pod can blast them off the table with ease, and a medic is not going to change that.
Leave the command squad to barking orders and waving a flag around, having the fists for an emergency counterpunch.

Drop the bolter sponsons and one melta. 3 or 2 melta guns are not that different really.

I put my vote in dropping the Carapace for the snipers. I hesitate on changing the command squad, as I am enjoying the narrative you have going for them.

I don't know. I'm still having trouble wrapping my brain around taking 4+ armor over just twice the men.

Carapace vets 100
2x PIS 100

The 4+ save is nice, but with weapon upgrades these vets will cost almost as much as a sisters squad. The sisters get a 3+ save and are still not that great due to their low toughness.

I guess I'm also not sure what the overall strategy with this list would be.

Push up the field with 50 dudes with 4+ saves and then meet the 30 stormies at their destination, while the exterminators and punisher exterminate and punish things?

I see the problem being that the Vets will get whittled down as they go by small arms and long range fire. Then against a lot of armies they will also get charged and despite their armor they will not last long in a fist fight.

So, to do the quick comparison. Compare 2 PISs with a pair of plasma guns vs. a single dura-vet squad with 2 plasmas at the same price.

Killing power-wise, guard squads put down 16 lasgun hits and 2 plasma hits. The vets put down roughly 10 lasgun hits and a bit less than 3 plasma hits. The two sound comparable.

The guard squad, against heavy bolters in cover lose 50% fewer of their models while they're in ruins, or 33% better in regular cover, but if 10 Ap5 wounds come in, that's 10 dead guardsmen out of cover, compared to 5 dead guardsmen cover or no. This is really the difference. More than half as durable in most cover situations, while being twice as durable outside of cover.

And that's what this is really all about. Currently, my guardsmen are instantly melting the moment they leave cover (and are even having somewhat of a difficult time against massed fire even with cover). With platoons, I have no choice but to hide in cover. With dura-vets, cover doesn't matter against most things. Free from the shackles of terrain, it means I could actually DO something with the veterans, rather than just hiding and hoping nothing looked at them strangely.

I could see perhaps including A platoon with basically no upgrades just to have something to sit on an objective and go to ground. That said, if I'm going to charge in with vets, I don't feel comfortable doing this with less than 50 in the charge. I'd actually ditch one of my tanks to fill up my troops slots if I weren't a little concerned about what losing the russ would mean for the rest of the list.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, to do the quick comparison. Compare 2 PISs with a pair of plasma guns vs. a single dura-vet squad with 2 plasmas at the same price.

Killing power-wise, guard squads put down 16 lasgun hits and 2 plasma hits. The vets put down roughly 10 lasgun hits and a bit less than 3 plasma hits. The two sound comparable.

The guard squad, against heavy bolters in cover lose 50% fewer of their models while they're in ruins, or 33% better in regular cover, but if 10 Ap5 wounds come in, that's 10 dead guardsmen out of cover, compared to 5 dead guardsmen cover or no. This is really the difference. More than half as durable in most cover situations, while being twice as durable outside of cover.

And that's what this is really all about. Currently, my guardsmen are instantly melting the moment they leave cover (and are even having somewhat of a difficult time against massed fire even with cover). With platoons, I have no choice but to hide in cover. With dura-vets, cover doesn't matter against most things. Free from the shackles of terrain, it means I could actually DO something with the veterans, rather than just hiding and hoping nothing looked at them strangely.

I could see perhaps including A platoon with basically no upgrades just to have something to sit on an objective and go to ground. That said, if I'm going to charge in with vets, I don't feel comfortable doing this with less than 50 in the charge. I'd actually ditch one of my tanks to fill up my troops slots if I weren't a little concerned about what losing the russ would mean for the rest of the list.

From the other perspective. You're out in the open and get boltered by a squad of marines within rapid fire range. The regular PIS will lose 9 guys while their buddies in the second squad will be unharmed. The vets get shot and if they roll average will lose 4 or 5 guys. If the PIS survivor did not book it and is holding the squads plasma gun the marine player will have to choose if he wants to finish the guy off with something else or shoot at the second squad. With the vets you could roll poorly and lose everything important in that squad anyway (of course you could roll great and lose no one). So you're placing the fate of your plasma guns on a 4+ save.

I like the premise of this list. As it stands, I don't think it's very competitive, but that's not always the point, right? It's a game, have some fun, try things, etc.

In keeping with the spirit of the list, I tried to "crank it up a notch with the spice weasel!" In this case, the weasel in question is 400 points of SM Allies.

The exact mix of special weapons (melta, plasma, Demo, combi-, sniper, GL, etc) is of course dependant on what you have and what you expect to face. Flavor as you see fit

Cut the Demolitions on Harker or the Krak on CCS if you need a few points. Add some more Scout/Snipers or Stormies if you free up some points

Total Army - 1850

IG Cost: 1450

HQ: Company Command Squad + Carapace Armour + Krak Grenades + Medi-pack + Regimental Standard + Meltagun x2
+ Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken (S6 PW, CA, FC, and Fearless = good)
+ Bodyguard
+ Bodyguard

5x stormies - 2x Plasma, Plasma Pistol on Serg
5x stormies - 2x Melta
5x stormies - 2x Melta (I found it hard to justify the points for 10 man squads without Chimeras)

Veterans - carapace, 3x plasma
Veterans - carapace, 3x plasma
Veterans - carapace, 3x melta
Veterans - carapace, 3x melta
Veterans - Demolitions, 3x Plasma
+ Gunnery Sergeant Harker (Infiltrate/Outflank/Stealth/mtc = tactical options)

Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun (Quad Gun, TFC, Scout Squad camp behind ADL. CCS will be there for turn 1 probably. Harker too if you are facing a very mobile aggressive force)

SM Allies Cost: 400

HQ: Space Marine Chapter Master in Power Armour (joins CCS)
+ Combi-Meltagun + Relic Blade (Brings some much needed beef to the CCS and an Orbital Bombardment on turn 1)

Troops: Scout Squad + 3x Sniper + Missile Launcher + Sergeant Telion (Put Telion on the Quad Gun)

Heavy Support:
Thunderfire Cannon (Artillery got a boost in general in 6th, TFC got a huge boost. You can now almost always save your TM Gunner)
Techmarine Gunner (Read the SM faq about what you can Bolster Defences on)

bogalubov wrote:From the other perspective. You're out in the open and get boltered by a squad of marines within rapid fire range. The regular PIS will lose 9 guys while their buddies in the second squad will be unharmed. The vets get shot and if they roll average will lose 4 or 5 guys. If the PIS survivor did not book it and is holding the squads plasma gun the marine player will have to choose if he wants to finish the guy off with something else or shoot at the second squad. With the vets you could roll poorly and lose everything important in that squad anyway (of course you could roll great and lose no one). So you're placing the fate of your plasma guns on a 4+ save.

This is a lot more wishful thinking than it used to be, though.

We no longer have hidden weapons, for example, meaning that the odds of your lone survivor being the plasma gunner are rather low (and if he IS that far to the rear, he's going to have range problems). Also, there is the force concentration problem with the platoon. It's going to be much easier to get two squads of vets on target than 4 squads of infantry.

With the PISs, it looks to me like the first squad would get gunned down, the second would move forward about to where the first squad died, and then it would, itself, get gunned down. With the vets, the squad gets to move forward, survive the round of shooting, and then move forward again and actually get to shoot its weapons.

foolishmortal wrote:I like the premise of this list. As it stands, I don't think it's very competitive

And why not?

In any case, the SM list posted would be ultraboned against transport and flier spam, I'd think. Plus, I have exactly 1 space marine model...

 Ailaros wrote:

bogalubov wrote:From the other perspective. You're out in the open and get boltered by a squad of marines within rapid fire range. The regular PIS will lose 9 guys while their buddies in the second squad will be unharmed. The vets get shot and if they roll average will lose 4 or 5 guys. If the PIS survivor did not book it and is holding the squads plasma gun the marine player will have to choose if he wants to finish the guy off with something else or shoot at the second squad. With the vets you could roll poorly and lose everything important in that squad anyway (of course you could roll great and lose no one). So you're placing the fate of your plasma guns on a 4+ save.

This is a lot more wishful thinking than it used to be, though.

We no longer have hidden weapons, for example, meaning that the odds of your lone survivor being the plasma gunner are rather low (and if he IS that far to the rear, he's going to have range problems). Also, there is the force concentration problem with the platoon. It's going to be much easier to get two squads of vets on target than 4 squads of infantry.

With the PISs, it looks to me like the first squad would get gunned down, the second would move forward about to where the first squad died, and then it would, itself, get gunned down. With the vets, the squad gets to move forward, survive the round of shooting, and then move forward again and actually get to shoot its weapons.

In a 10 man squad where they are carrying only 1 special weapon you could easily save the gun for last while losing a mere 1 or 2 inches of range. I have yet to lose special weapons or officers due to proximity to the shooter in cases where I was not specifically gambling with model placement. If they are dropping guys behind my PIS to snipe my melta gun, that's a lot of effort for one PIS.

In terms of gaining ground, the two PIS could be next to each other instead of stacked one after the other. That way you could gain ground after 1 of the squads gets blasted. They will however get slaughtered the next turn most likely.

The point I am trying to make though is that the vets are not that much durable than having two PIS. Both will need about two rounds of marine tactical squad shooting to kill. At least if you have two, the marines won't be able to shoot and charge separate squads. By increasing force concentration you're no longer taking advantage of MSU advantage that guard could provide.

At this point you have squads of crappy battle sisters that can take plasma guns charging across no man's land. That doesn't sound that scary to me.

Even toughness 4 marines wouldn't try this approach because they can't survive out in the open very well.

Ailaros wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:I like the premise of this list. As it stands, I don't think it's very competitive

And why not? In any case, the SM list posted would be ultraboned against transport and flier spam, I'd think. Plus, I have exactly 1 space marine model...

Gut feeling based on personal experience, but I'll try and make it more empirical.

"ultraboned against transport" I'm not sure I follow the comparison here. They seem about the same Vs Transports Turn 1 and only very slightly better Turn 2
Turn 1 List 1 Win Init - you kill 2 transports with LRExts = 2
Turn 1 List 1 Lose Init - you kill 2 transports with LRExts, an AV11 or less with the LRPun = 2.5
Turn 1 List 2 Win Init - you kill 1 (or more) transport(s) with the Orbital Bombardment, 1 with the Quad gun/ML/Snipers, and maybe one with the TFC+Harker Infiltrated = 2.25 (or more)
Turn 1 List 2 Lose Init - you kill 1 (or more) transport(s) with the Orbital Bombardment, 1 with the Quad gun/ML/Snipers, and maybe one with the TFC+Harker Infiltrated = 2.25 (or more)

I ignored the numbers for Infiltrated ST squads and non-infiltrated Vets. List 1 has and extra squad of Vets, list 2 has an extra ST squad with AT weaponry

Turn 2 you start to see List 1's LRExts perform more, but you also the extra squad of AT STs + the Quad Gun squad keeps it fairly close.

IMO neither list is super good at long range AT, but both are very good at short range AT

"ultraboned against ... flier spam, I'd think." I believe List 2 is far stronger Vs Fliers than List 1.

Earlier you said "If I lose the punisher I lose what has, so far, been my best anti-flier weapon." I would argue that the Quad gun, manned by Telion, with double the range, TL BS5 S7, Skyfire and Interceptor is by far better. If nothing else, it has the ability to drop fliers before they shoot in the shooting phase good stuff, but watch out for bombs

IMO neither list is very good Vs Flier spam, but List 2 is better Vs 1 or 2 Fliers.

In the end, I think the main difference between List 1 and 2 is that List 2 does about as well as List 1 at most things, but saves enough points to make the CCS better at CC.

Sorry to /rant, but I'm watching political news and waiting for food. "These are the times that try men's souls"

Finally, I have no retort to your final objection "Plus, I have exactly 1 space marine model..." that sir, is an ironclad argument

A quad gun manned by telion is an expensive way to lose an AA gun before it gets a chance to actually shoot at any fliers. If a flier attacks a russ from off the board, it's likely to survive long enough to return fire at least once.

As for gaining ground with PISs, I'm rapidly becoming convinced that it can't be done. Guardsmen just die too fast out in the open. If your opponent can kill more inches of guardsmen than you're advancing, you're not really getting anywhere. Plus, there are the force concentration problems to deal with. If you pack your stuff together (making them a very tempting target for blast weapons), you're still having a hard time applying enough durability and killing power against any one spot.

As for cost. I think that for 130 points the ability to wander around in near power armor with 3 BS4 meltas is a steal compared to other armies, and it's not even too shabby for the guard codex itself either.

Quad gun in List 2 is T7 2W with 3+ armor and 3+ cover.
Also, it shoots before the flier (Interceptor) on you opponents turn.

How about something like this?

CCS - PF, Standard, 2x snipers, medic, body guard

priest - eviscerator

10x stormies - 2x flamers
10x stormies - 2x flamers
10x stormies - 2x flamers

Vets - 3x palsma, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, carpace
Vets - 3x melta, carpace
Vets - 3x snipers, forward sentries
Vets - 3x snipers, forward sentries

Exterminator - lascannon
Exterminator - lascannon
Exterminator - lascannon

This way you can keep the command squad setup you seem to like or change it to accommodate everything else and now instead of random GL you have 2 objective camping sniper squads.

You know, or I was just starting to think about replacing one of the exterminators with a 2x hydra battery.

I could have my stormies and my 5 carapaced dura-vets, and then some autocannon fire to pour on the hate. The question, then, would be if I run the loadout as 5 vets, 2 hydras, and 2 exterminators, or run it as 6 vets, 2 hydras and a punisher (or exterminator).

In any case, I'd be getting a few more points squeezed out to help the vets.

Ailaros wrote:You know, or I was just starting to think about replacing one of the exterminators with a 2x hydra battery.
Until I see fliers in > 2/3 of local lists, I have a hard time choosing hydras in 6th. I loved them so much in 5th. I was sad to see them take such a hit.

I could have my stormies and my 5 carapaced dura-vets, and then some autocannon fire to pour on the hate. The question, then, would be if I run the loadout as 5 vets, 2 hydras, and 2 exterminators, or run it as 6 vets, 2 hydras and a punisher (or exterminator). 1st choice seems better, but 6 vets and 2 LRExts might work also

Personally i think hydras are pretty inflexible they have the single roll of shoot air stuff which means they are near useless turn 1 and once they shoot down any fliers they are once again near worthless. I think you may find the investment into a vendetta or 2 down the line may actually be the better way to go there

I love the idea of 3x Vendetta in this list instead of the current Heavy Support. Not only are they great Anti-Flier/Tank/TEQ, they open up more mobility options for your Vets and themselves verge upon flier-spam

My only sadness about the new role of the 6th Ed Vendetta is that it must start in reserve :(

It's really not so bad, though. For 150 points, I put out 3 hits against ground targets with the exterminator. For 150 points, I put out 2.5 hits against ground targets with the hydras (and get an extra heavy bolter to boot). And hydras still shoot at skimmers and fliers better.

Really, my concern here is with the AV12, which had a nasty tendency to just explode horribly, especially without a lot else of it on the table. Plus, without interceptor, they have to feel the wrath of the fliers before they get a chance to fire.

It sort of opens up two different ways of looking at it. On the one hand, I could do 2 hydras and an exterminator and consider the whole thing sort of a cheap throwaway support so that I can spend more points on my core units. On the other hand, I could take 2 hydras and 2 exterminators, or 3 exterminators and have my HS slots be beefy.

It's kind of hard to tell which way is better at the moment.

There's something about taking a HS as a throw away that deeply disturbs me. On the other hand though they are usually the first thing to get lit up so sometimes its not much bother anyway.

The math has shifted horribly on the value of the hydras from 5th to 6th, but not unfairly so. They were too good in 5th. If they had had a GW model for it, sold in the US, it would have been 3x Vendettas and 4x or 6x Hydras in most IG lists.

I say 4x or 6x, because somewhere along the way, IG players realized 2 was enough. 2 Hydras reliably killed an AV11 or AV12. Sure, there is a definate tactical value of poping your opponents transports while they are waaaaay over there, but you have to step back and think when you are using a 225 point Vehicle squad to kill a 40-70pt model.

Ailaros wrote:It's really not so bad, though. For 150 points, I put out 3 hits against ground targets with the exterminator. For 150 points, I put out 2.5 hits against ground targets with the hydras (and get an extra heavy bolter to boot)

2.5 hits doesn't cut it. Adding a 3rd Hydra doesn't make much sense.

Vs All comers, I think Hydra is on the way out. If Skimmers/Fliers become consistently dominate in the meta-game we'll see them return