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What about this?:

CCS - standard, 3x plazma, carapace
CCS - standard, 3x plazma, carapace

10x stormies - 2x plazma, plazma pistol
5x stormies - 2x meltas
5x stormies - 2x meltas

Veterans - carapace, 3x plasma
Veterans - carapace, 3x plazma
Veterans - carapace, 3x plazma
Veterans - carapace, 3x plazma
Veterans - carapace, 3x meltas


Leman Russ Demolisher
Leman Russ Exterminator
Leman Russ Exterminator

I do not think Punisher is a good choice so i replaced him with something your list lacks - S10. Veterans are re-equiped to act as anti-heavy infantry force. CCS lost its CC upgrades along with a priest and acts like veterans + adds a bit morale support...and there are two of them. Stormies are more like special units - 5-man squads for anti tank, 10-man squad for anti-MEQ. Exterminators are good for anti light vehicle, Demolisher is good against tough vehicles or heavy infantry...or both in one shot if close enough. It is 1850 to the point, if I count correctly.

I'm guessing based on Ailaros' Defense of Bastion Three he ain't leaving home without Stormie Flamers.

 Ailaros wrote:
CCS - power fist, standard, medic
Priest - eviscerator

10x stormies - 2x flamers
10x stormies - 2x meltas
10x stormies - 2x meltas

Veterans - carapace, 3x plasma
Veterans - carapace, 3x melta
Veterans - carapace, 3x melta
Veterans - carapace, 3x grenade launchers
Veterans - carapace, 3x sniper rifles.

Leman Russ Punisher, hull heavy bolter, heavy bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Exterminator, hull lascannon
Leman Russ Exterminator, hull lascannon


86 bodies still means a foot horde, and everything locked in carapace means I'd be able to actually GO somewhere, rather than being stuck hiding in ruins. Decently overlapping fire, the stormies for flexibility, and a dash of CC just in case.

There's only one problem. This list is 30 points over.

I still think an Aegis belongs in the list. If the idea is to leave some units like the snipers at the base then drop that medic from the ccs and carapace from two units of vets that gains you a 4++ or a 2++ going to ground for the home base boys and it saves you 40 points. If the original was over 30 then presto you now have 10 points to upgrade



Automatically Appended Next Post:
50- ADL

**80- Lord Commissar camo cloak

175- (10) Stormies with 2x flamers
105- (5) Stormies with 2x melta
105- (5) Stormies with 2x melta

**155- Sentry Vets 3x Plasma, Auto C
*40- PCS Auto C
**60- PIS Auto C
**60- PIS Auto C

170- Harker Vets 3x Plasma
145- Grenadiers 3x Plasma
145- Grenadiers 3x Plasma
130- Grenadiers 3x Melta

150- LRE
150- LRE
*125- Basilisk

1845

* Camp behind ADL
** Camp behind ADL for 3++

10x stormies - 2x flamers

no, better use meltas or plasma

Veterans - carapace, 3x plasma
Veterans - carapace, 3x melta
Veterans - carapace, 3x melta
Veterans - carapace, 3x grenade launchers
Veterans - carapace, 3x sniper rifles.

why don't you make platoon? all vets will die in CC or run away from gunfire
grenade launchers and sniper are useless for veteran weapons (only as additional with HWT)

Why don't I make a platoon? I ask the other question, why bother with one at all? Yeah, I suppose they sit behind an aegis a bit better, but vets don't exactly do that poorly. Meanwhile, the vets give me more flexibility for missions like relic and purge. It's part of the reason I think I'd still take carapace over camo cloaks. Especially were I to use an aegis, or make flagrant use of incoming! there wouldn't even be a difference in the cover save, while there would be one for those times that I'm going to have semi-exposed objectives.

The 6 vet list, one with harker is beginning to interest me greatly. That way I'd have not only a boatload of stormies, but I'd also have a scoring unit possibly starting deep in my opponent's backfield. Even if they're stuck somewhere hidden in mid-field, it's still provides a buffer, as they've got a 30" threat range with plasma guns and a 42" threat range with a super heavy bolter.

Were I to do that, though, keeping the elements I'm liking so far, the list would look something like...

CCS - fist, flag, medic
Priest - eviscerator

10 flamer stormies
10 melta stormies
10 melta stormies

vets - Harker, 3x plasma
vets - 3x plasma, carapace
vets - 3x plasma, carapace
vets - 3x melta, carapace
vets - 3x melta, carapace
vets - 3x snipers, carapace

LR Exterminator
Hydra
Hydra

The denial potential with 30 stormtrooper and harker backed up by 10 vets is huge. The objective capping potential with 56 carapace dudes in my backfield is good enough, especially if they're behind the vehicles. Then there's stuff to break open a few transports and swat those annoying fliers out of the way. I'd consider swapping the hydras for a second exterminator, though. I want skyfire, but I also want AV14.

Plus, with 96 infantry models, it's still a proper horde, and with everything with carapace, it's not going to just fold on itself like a bunch of regular guardsmen.

30 Stormies seems like too much for me. IMHO I would drop down to 5 man units with maybe 1 large one with the flamers and use the leftover points to buy more armor, either a vendetta or chimeras for your melta vets. Your list is lacking in long range fire once your opponent takes care of the hydras. I'd add some heavy weapon teams to the vet squads. The idea is cool though, I've run 6xvets before and its fun.

I know you're points strapped, but why no heavy weapons in your vets? It's not a huge increase in points, and you might find some use via snapshots.

My biggest problem is the CCS, it is so expensive, the priest cost more then an entire ADL, then their is the medic. Trade the priest and the medic for an ADL and camo netting on your hydras. Then at least your hydras will have a 3++ making them more resilient not to mention all your troops.

I know I keep pushing the ADL, but it is the single most fluffy thing for a guard army and it is probably the best purchase available for its cost. IMO every IG army should start their list with one. It's like an indestructible KKF for only 50pts.

I think the veterans with sniper rifles are a bit of an issue. That's 115 points for essentially 3 sniper shots a turn. I know you don't want to do this, but maybe drop a 2 stormtroopers or something so that you can upgrade that vet squad to have 3 plasma guns? Also perhaps think about dropping a stormie or two to equip veteran squads with heavy weapons.

Dropping the odd stormie here and there won't do much harm, and also decreases the chance of them not being able to deploy properly.

I suppose I could, reluctantly, consider dropping a hydra (or both), in replacement for an ADL with quadcannon. I mean, I'm really only using the hydras for fliers, and the ADL gets to shoot at them before they get onto the board. For the life of me I can't figure out why the "shoot at fliers" rule, the "preemptively shoot at fliers" and the "also shoot at ground targets" rule were put together in the way they were. The first two should have been combined, not the last two.

That does leave my uncomfortably shy on anti-transport. I know, the plasma guns... but still...

Maybe follow the idea of having 1 squad of 10 stormies (with flamers) and 2 squads of 5 stormies with meltas.

actually what about having 2 squads of 10 stormies and marbo? Marbo gives you certainty and some nice ap2 pie. He can kill lots of troops or sort out tanks.

use the remaining points to either grab more av 14 or some heavy weapons for a little more long range fire.

The ADL really is a better choice than the hydras for your list in my opinion.

I mean, I botch the hydras, throw in an ADL with a quadcannon, and have 25 points to spare. Perhaps 55 without a medic.

... and turn that into 5 autocannons for the vets?

Perhaps a bastion instead?

 Ailaros wrote:
I mean, I botch the hydras, throw in an ADL with a quadcannon, and have 25 points to spare. Perhaps 55 without a medic.

... and turn that into 5 autocannons for the vets?

Perhaps a bastion instead?

Never ADL is the single most cost efficient fortification IMO. Awesome saves, cheap, and most importantly it counts as battlefield debris meaning it can't be destroyed nuking your boys.

It's only a little more expensive, and gives the quad gun AV14. The storage space for dudes and heavy bolters are free, in my view.

You do lose the cover, of course, but if the point of this is the anti-flier... well, then a bastion with a quad gun is an immobile exterminator that gets skyfire and is cheaper.

Or, to consider an all-infantry option...

CCS - fist, flag, medic, autocannon, krak grenades
Priest - eviscerator

Primaris psyker

10 flamer stormies
10 melta stormies
10 melta stormies

vets - Harker, 3x plasma, autocannon
vets - 3x plasma, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x plasma, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x plasma, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x melta, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x melta, autocannon, carapace

ADL - quadcannon

Actually puts out MORE autocannon fire than the previous lists, plus, the 2D6 S6 PP shots might not be too shabby against fliers either. Plus, it also gives me 3 more plasma guns.

Ailaros wrote:Or, to consider an all-infantry option...

CCS - fist, flag, medic, autocannon, krak grenades I just don't see this squad being all that effective in CC due to low initiative - unless your primary opponents are IG, Tau or Necrons. They don't have the numbers to dent big Ork squads and everything else is Init4+. If you insist on a CC CCS, at least take Straken. His Furious Charge will give you I4, at least letting you tie MEQ.
Priest - eviscerator (being able to re-roll misses is not worth 60 points when your initiative is so low)

Primaris psyker

10 flamer stormies how do you plan to use these so that the flamers are the best weapons choice for them?
10 melta stormies how do you plan to use these so that the extra 5 guys are worth their points?
10 melta stormies

vets - Harker, 3x plasma, autocannon Consider Demolitions rather than the AC. The Primaris Psyker might be useful here
vets - 3x plasma, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x plasma, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x plasma, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x melta, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x melta, autocannon, carapace

ADL - quadcannon Who will shot the gun? It can shoot on its own, but it will do even better with a BS4

Thematically, I would go with 2 CCS with Carapace Armor and 4x Plasma each

foolishmortal wrote: I just don't see this squad being all that effective in CC due to low initiative

Of course they have low initiative - they have power fists. If you don't like power fists, that's fine, but they still work in this edition.

Also, I'd note that the squad is deceptively durable. The officer has W3 with a 5++ and FNP (along with a LoS!), and the priest has a 4++, and can accept challenges, which makes it a good challenge unit while the officer runs around with a wounds on 2+ Ap2 weapon.

Not an offensive unit, perhaps, but a hell of a counterattack unit. It beats face on damaged squads.

foolishmortal wrote:If you insist on a CC CCS, at least take Straken

Straken is good, but I like the combo I have better.

foolishmortal wrote: how do you plan to use these so that the flamers are the best weapons choice for them?

Drop them next to infantry. I'll point you to how well they've done so far, and by well I mean very well. Pinpoint deepstriking usually means 20+ flamer hits which, when combined with a big pile of BS4 Ap3 means that infantry of all types feel the pain.

foolishmortal wrote:how do you plan to use these so that the extra 5 guys are worth their points?

Once again, it's primarily an anti-infantry weapon. The meltaguns are just there for a little versatility.

foolishmortal wrote:Consider Demolitions rather than the AC. The Primaris Psyker might be useful here

Dont' have the points.

Also, if the PP joined, wouldn't that prevent the squad from being able to infiltrate?

foolishmortal wrote:Who will shot the gun?

Some vets.

Ailaros wrote:

foolishmortal wrote: I just don't see this squad being all that effective in CC due to low initiative

Of course they have low initiative - they have power fists. If you don't like power fists, that's fine, but they still work in this edition.
No, they have Power Fist, singular. One (1) power fist. I love power fists, but not on something this fragile.


Also, I'd note that the squad is deceptively durable. The officer has W3 with a 5++ and FNP (along with a LoS!), and the priest has a 4++, and can accept challenges, which makes it a good challenge unit while the officer runs around with a wounds on 2+ Ap2 weapon.
T3 suffers ID from S6, so Multi-Lasers, Auto-Cannons, Plasma, Relic Blades, etc. ID negates FNP.

Not an offensive unit, perhaps, but a hell of a counterattack unit. It beats face on damaged squads.
Maybe. I have been playing around with Rough Riders and Mogul Kamir for this role. The new 6th Ed rage rule and an ADL to hide behind has me thinking about it. Its about the same point cost as your CCS, but Charges at S6 Init6.

foolishmortal wrote:If you insist on a CC CCS, at least take Straken

Straken is good, but I like the combo I have better.

foolishmortal wrote: how do you plan to use these so that the flamers are the best weapons choice for them?

Drop them next to infantry. I'll point you to how well they've done so far, and by well I mean very well. Pinpoint deepstriking usually means 20+ flamer hits which, when combined with a big pile of BS4 Ap3 means that infantry of all types feel the pain.
If you are getting 20 hits from 2 flamers, then we are playing against very different opponents. Maybe if they just Deep Strike'd

foolishmortal wrote:how do you plan to use these so that the extra 5 guys are worth their points?

Once again, it's primarily an anti-infantry weapon. The meltaguns are just there for a little versatility.

foolishmortal wrote:Consider Demolitions rather than the AC. The Primaris Psyker might be useful here

Dont' have the points. Cut the ACs from the MeltaVets

Also, if the PP joined, wouldn't that prevent the squad from being able to infiltrate?
If they joined the Storm Troopers, yes. Harker gives Infiltrate to the whole unit, including ICs that joined before deployment.

foolishmortal wrote:Who will shot the gun?

Some vets.

Pause; Ailaros taking Vets? Nah.

Must be a troll.

Or a fake account.

Or he got hacked.

Possessed by Tzeentch maybe?

I like what your trying to do here esp the no armour.
I might just have to run a copy of this list to see if i can play it. Have a game tomorrow at my local store so will report back.

I'm still not sure if this list solves your mobility problem. You will still be relying on T3 guys walking to get into killing range or to capture objectives.
Their leadership hasn't improved any either. So you only need to blast 3 guardsmen before a morale check, without a fearless bubble or at least re-roll you will have guys take off. Even if they re-group next turn you just lost ground.

Plus, if you're giving in to the ADL, why not go with the cheaper PIS that with orders could throw down some descent killing power.
I mean even the HWT become viable with the defense line.

So the last iteration of your list is very confused. You took carapace so you could get places, but now you're taking a defensive building that makes staying put better and carapace unnecessary.

As far as the bastion. Don't bother. That thing can be knocked out with one rail gun shot with everyone taking a jump at -2 dangerous terrain test to survive. The people inside are basically dead too.
Another hilarious tactic I was exposed to is Necrons throwing down glances on the bastion to inflict a ton of S6 hits on the guys hiding inside.

to Foolishmortal: Furious charge no longer adds +1 to iniciative...

Lothar wrote:to Foolishmortal: Furious charge no longer adds +1 to iniciative...

Ouch! Thanks. This is my first change of 40k core rule editions, and I am slowly learning why my more experienced friends love/hate it.

I really like your list:

CCS - fist, flag, medic, autocannon, krak grenades
Priest - eviscerator

Primaris psyker

10 flamer stormies
10 melta stormies
10 melta stormies

vets - Harker, 3x plasma, autocannon
vets - 3x plasma, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x plasma, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x plasma, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x melta, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x melta, autocannon, carapace

ADL - quadcannon

But.. I think the 2x 10 Stormtroopers w/melta is a waste. They are essentially suicide troops - I know you've not been using them that way, but reading your battle reports the absurd scatter you've been having really puts a downer on a large portion of your list. I know that's not something under your control, but if it's going to be a trend, you're just wasting points that could be put to better use.

As it stands, they are your only "reliable" way of getting melta into the enemy DZ/table half to eliminate their backfield elements, but even at 10-strong they don't seem to survive well enough to warrant the large investment of points.

The flamer Stormtroopers seem ace (I will have to give them a try) as they are dedicated anti-infantry. You can drop the whole squad down, flame/hellgun/frag grenade away at a unit and do serious damage.
The melta squads on the other hand, drop down, fire two melta shots and a krak grenade and the rest of the shots are wasted (assuming vehicles are your targets... what with the melta). I just don't see the justification for a 10-man squad. You can save 160 points by dropping them both to 2x 5 w/2 melta.

Harker seems a bit iffy, too. Sure you can get in a nice position for side armour shots or just to delay the enemy, but with the increased mobility in 6th, they're not going to speed-bump for long enough to make a difference. I would be tempted to Outflank them (Infiltrate still grants that, right?) to get a scoring unit in the enemy DZ and for side/rear armour shots with the plas/auto.

If you dropped him, and the stormies down to 2x 5, then it's what... 215? points saved? (haven't got my codex here). That's a fair chunk for not really much loss of firepower, just mobility options.

Another thought occurs; if you went 2x 10 Stormtroopers w/flamers then had a large-ish Ogryn squad for counter-attack/bulletsponge – would that work? It might be a nice place to put your Psyker, too.

I suppose the list might look something like:

CCS - fist, flag, medic, autocannon, krak grenades
Priest - eviscerator

Primaris psyker

10 flamer stormies
10 flamer stormies
5 Ogryn w/Bone ‘ead

vets - 3x plasma, lascannon, carapace
vets - 3x plasma, lascannon, carapace
vets - 3x plasma, lascannon, carapace
vets - 3x plasma, lascannon, carapace
vets - 3x melta, autocannon, carapace
vets - 3x melta, autocannon, carapace

Which comes to 1755 (I think)… so enough points to drop in an ADL/Bastion (again, can’t remember the points off the top of my head). Or beef up the Ogryn squad by a couple…

I think the Ogryn would be a good fit here; they will attract fire that would otherwise hurt your more fragile vets, and are a threat to most units in CC.

Sorry it’s a bit of a rambling post – slow day at the office!

Alright, so I played a game with this list, and it did about the same as my platoon-based foot guard, though I'm getting really close to cracking the flyer code.

There isn't a whole lot that's striking me as needing to be changed at the moment, actually. The stormies have had bad luck, but that's just bad luck. ANY unit with that kind of luck will perform poorly.

The 4+ carapace was a godsend. I can't imagine running foot vets without it. A 4+ anywhere on the board and a 4+ cover from ADL makes for reasonably durably troops, even if there are fewer of them.

In any case, the new iteration of the list looks like:

CCS - fist, standard, lascannon
Priest - eviscerator

Primaris Psyker

10x stormies - 2x flamers
10x stormies - 2x meltas
10x stormies - 2x meltas

Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon,carapace
Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace

ADL - icarus lascannon

This continues to strengthen my hand against fliers. 7 lascannons shooting at an AV11 flier outright wrecks a flier a quarter of the times it shoots, and the icarus brings that up to a third - a reasonable enough chance to just down one straight away. Add to that the glance monster of BiD lightning arc, and I'm starting to feel rather confident, especially as I've added better anti-AV12-flier stuff.

Also, the melta hedge just got reinforced. 12 meltaguns is good for a couple of hits (or more with BiD), and melta range or no, they're still Ap1...

As for the stormies, I think I've just got to wait for them to be luckier. I'd possibly consider losing one of the squads, but only if I knew that those 185 points would be spent somewhere better. I could perhaps see a pair of hydras, but they'd be my only vehicles (and a liability on purge and guns missions). I also would want to make sure I kept the anti-meq power sufficiently high. I might consider upgrading the flamer stormies to melta, though. I feel like the gains against infantry aren't perhaps, as high as the gains I'd need from the melta.

Told you autocannons were crap

I would really drop that priest. I know you want some cc counter-punch, and I can understand that. However, isn't it better to spread the love around a little? You are paying 60pts for a 1w powerfist with a 4+ invul and re-rolls on the charge. Those 60pts could buy 4 powerfists spread out amongst the stormies/vets instead, making them less of a walkover in melee. A big bonus of the carapace is the fact that you get quite a lot more survivable in close combat, but if you have no killingpower in close combat, that gain is moot.

Swapping the stormy unit for a vendetta with heavy bolters would be the best bet IMO, also gives you pts to spread another 3 powerfists around.

Another alternative is to go for roughriders. An ADL is godsent for that unit.

I'd cut the two melta stormtrooper squads down to 5 men each, freeing up 160 points, then plough that into a third squad. Flamer squad (which have worked so well for you in the past), or something? That 160 points would pay for a 9 man squad with 2 flamers. Overall, more bang for your buck if you ask me.