Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Lynata wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Functionally, the Deathwatch is no different to any other chapter.

It is, outside of FFG's little world. Judging by the small textbox in the 6E rulebook, GW seems to stick with its initial idea of ad-hoc teams operating under Inquisition jurisdiction, as opposed to a standing army with their own starship fleets and armoured formations doing as they want. I have to say I like that a lot more, too. Their small size makes the Deathwatch more unique than if they'd be just another Chapter of "Space Marines, but BETTER". We already have that.

I guess I'm getting my fluff and my gameplay mixed up. 99% of all Marine forces are going to be a squad or two assisting or responding to some other Imperial force. I don't see the Deathwatch operating any differently, and I guess I was drawing from the FFG stuff as well.

Personally, I think 1,000 fighting men is already small enough for a galaxy spanning anti-alien strike force. I think it'd be cool to boost the Deathwatch out a bit, with terminators and tac/assault/devastator equivalents, maybe dreadnoughts and vehicles. I think something like that, a Marine force specialised against a particular foe, rather than just a BETTER one, warrants it's own codex more than Dark Angels, or even Blood Angels to be honest, who's only real difference is their paint job.

Kaldor wrote:99% of all Marine forces are going to be a squad or two assisting or responding to some other Imperial force.

That's a good point, but I suppose this applies more to games with Allies rules. Most tabletop games, the ones where you field vehicles and stuff, represent larger engagements like they happen all across the galaxy all the time, too. And that's what the Codices ultimately aim to support.

Coincidentally, I'm not even sure I would agree about single squads making up "99%" of all engagements. That's just a personal opinion, but I would think it somewhat strange for single squads to travel the galaxy all on their own more often than entire Companies being on the move. Could well differ from Chapter to Chapter, of course, but given their nature as a brotherhood I'd expect them to actually ... y'know, stick together more, with Chaplains watching out for their spiritual wellbeing, Techmarines caring for their equipment, and Apothecaries protecting that precious Geneseed.

Kaldor wrote:Personally, I think 1,000 fighting men is already small enough for a galaxy spanning anti-alien strike force. I think it'd be cool to boost the Deathwatch out a bit, with terminators and tac/assault/devastator equivalents, maybe dreadnoughts and vehicles.

But that's the point where you could just call in any Space Marine Chapter - or, hell, get the Imperial Guard, for obviously gak has already hit the fan.

The Deathwatch was created specifically for small kill-teams. According to GW's Inquisitor RPG material, they even came up with it because they wanted Space Marines leading teams of normal humans. That's the fluff behind Captain Artemis, anyways. And for the tabletop, you've got small elite kill-teams of DW Marines led by a Deathwatch Captain or an Inquisitor. I think that's way cooler than just making the Deathwatch work like your "next door" Chapter by giving them the same toys and the same job. It's not like normal Space Marine Chapters wouldn't fight Xenos themselves, after all. It's how they do it that differentiates them from the Deathwatch.

Kaldor wrote:I think something like that, a Marine force specialised against a particular foe, rather than just a BETTER one, warrants it's own codex more than Dark Angels, or even Blood Angels to be honest, who's only real difference is their paint job.

So in other words: Grey Knights in black. Ehh ... gonna have to disagree on that one.

Even if Marines do spend most of their time in very small engagements(which is true) it doesn't change that the Deathwatch are ALWAYS in small deployments.

I have never seen an instance of fluff where a significant portion of the Deathwatch is deployed to the battlefield.

Just use codex grey knights. It gives you everything the inquisition has access to. inquisitors of the 3 ordos, check. generic "inquisition" units. check. The only thing you can't take using the current GK codex would be deathwatch. Which since all deathwatch are is marines in different colored armor with better equipment you really already have access to that as well. Just paint one squad of grey knights like death watch, tada!

Or take a squad of sternguard as allies and paint them with deathwatch colors. GW shouldn't have to come out with rules for every minor army.

Oh, and please don't try to get my sisters of battle merged back into a codex with another army. I might purge your ass.

 Kaldor wrote:
There's a lot of debate about the best way to implement the forces of the Inquisition.

At the moment, the Grey Knight codex covers all three main Ordos, but it doesn't cover them well. It covers the Ordo Malleus pretty well, and with the new Allies rule you can include Inquisitors and their warbands in any Imperial army. And you have access to Inquisitors from the Ordo Hereticus and the Ordo Xenos.

You can always take an Inquisitor in a SM army, and model the SM as Deathwatch. But it is a work-around. What you really want is a unit or two of Deathwatch marines, with preferred enemy: xenos, and access to funky wargear ala Sternguard.

I would be happy with a WD supplement. Because it's as you say if you want to do a Deathwatch you can but they're gonna be vanilla marines as either Sterngaurd/Vanguard or Command squad to account for all their special weapons and gear, but they still are basic vanilla marines. The only way to get an inquisitor is through the GK dex and it seems to me some of them were dropped in there just so the book would be/could be a catch all without any real flavor at all. Like Kaldor said, it covers them but not well.

I'd love for GW to put out a new Killteam/deathwatch supplement that is usable in standard 40K and in specialized games.

As for the remarks of deathwatch in mass, they still have an arsenal and vehicles and equipment but they also draw from the chapters armories when they select their members who are most often selected from the first companies. But to keep secrecy in order so much of it they have to supply themselves. I can't see the inquistion doing a ride along with nominal IG units even if it would be more practical.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Even if Marines do spend most of their time in very small engagements(which is true) it doesn't change that the Deathwatch are ALWAYS in small deployments.

I have never seen an instance of fluff where a significant portion of the Deathwatch is deployed to the battlefield.

Grey Knights never have any major engagements either, with 100 coming together only to bring down Angron or something. Even then the codex doesn't just represent Deathwatch, it represents the entire inquisition. Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are numerous enough that an inquisitor could form an entire army of them. TBH this is what I think an inquisition codex should look like.

HQ:
Inquisitors (Pretty much the same as in the Grey Knights codex, maybe slightly more customizable, like the ability to modify base stats like WS and BS)
Grey Knight Leaders (Draigo, Grand Masters, Captains, Champions)
Deathwatch Leaders (Some sort of special characters, Watch Captains, Champions)

Elites:
Grey Knights and Deathwatch Marines
Inquisitorial Henchmen

Troops:
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
Private Army (pretty much Warrior Acolytes with special equipment options depending on the Ordo, Ordo Xenos can take stuff like Pulse Rifles, Ordo Malleus can take a holy water gun or whatever, IDK)

Fast Attack:
Transports and Gunships and stuff

Heavy Support:
Grey Knight and Deathwatch Dreadnoughts
Whatever else the Grey Knights already get

Granted the easiest way would probably be just to add a supplement to the existing Grey Knights codex

HQ:
Watch Captain
Deathwatch Champion

Elites:
Deathwatch Terminators
Deathwatch Dreadnought

Troops:
Deathwatch Kill Team
Warrior Acolyte Squad (represents an Inquisitor's private army or Inquisitorial Storm Troopers)

So yeah, just add like 6 new units and you can represent any of the Ordos with the Inquisition update and allies rules. Wanna do Ordo Malleus? Use Grey Knights with maybe some Warrior Acolyte squads tossed in. Wanna do Ordo Xenos? The bulk of your army should be Warrior Acolytes with some deathwatch marines to support your forces. Wanna do Ordo Hereticus? Rely on Warrior Acolyte squads and bring some SoB because SoB still have their own codex and aren't even technically part of the Ordo Hereticus.

I tend to agree a general "Allies" Codex would be a great book - (with hopefully a more fluff friendly matrix) - loads of new figures and options for people to enjoy.

Have several general sections

Xenos Mercenaries
Renegades and Pirates
Imperial Agents
etc

Just have it clearly stated who can ally with whom and the level and we are good to go.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I tend to agree a general "Allies" Codex would be a great book - (with hopefully a more fluff friendly matrix) - loads of new figures and options for people to enjoy.

Have several general sections

Xenos Mercenaries
Renegades and Pirates
Imperial Agents
etc

Just have it clearly stated who can ally with whom and the level and we are good to go.

I could roll with that. Xenos mercenaries could include Eldar/Dark Eldar Corsairs, Ork Blood Axes, and Kroot, renegades and pirates could include renegade guard, human pirates, and freebooterz, Imperial agents could include rogue traders, Adeptus Arbites, some Adeptus Mechanicus, and some smaller parts of the inquisition.

dalsiandon wrote:As for the remarks of deathwatch in mass, they still have an arsenal and vehicles and equipment

See, that's just not what GW fluff says. The original Deathwatch - the one we had the kill-team rules for, deploys in small tactical squads only. They don't have vehicles, and they don't have their own arsenals. They are equipped by the Inquisition.

FFG's Deathwatch is, quite simply, a whole different world and has little to do with the original idea other than the paint scheme on their armour.

I agree that they are normally small deployments - although I guess in extremis they might be larger - I think quite a few were deployed at the same time to clear out the Armageddon space stations?

I would have thought they would have a Thunderhawk or similar to expedite their rapid response?

This is what inevitably happens when fans of the fluff desperately want to see their pet faction on the table. Unfortunately, much of what we find cool about the universe can't be practically made for a tabletop army. Well, not unless we hit the over-the-top button or break a convention or two.

The Grey Knight codex, though much maligned as OT in some circles represents a faction that has a large combat component. Since they are a Marine chapter at heart. The units are varied and facilitates army list creation.

I honestly don't know if the SoB operate in such large numbers as to constitute an army or not. I have always wondered about that. It seems to me that they operate in small groups on singular targets from what very limited knowledge I have about them. I guess the same could be said about the GK as well though... perhaps they are no different in that regard. Although, a small unit of GK could cleanse a world, something the SoB would be hard pressed to do with anything like the same numbers.

Perhaps I'm over thinking it... I do that now and again.

Personally, I'd like to see a Codex: Adminstratum... smothering the unclean in red tape.

Mr Morden wrote:I agree that they are normally small deployments - although I guess in extremis they might be larger - I think quite a few were deployed at the same time to clear out the Armageddon space stations?

"2 Kill-teams", at least according to the reprinted chart in the rulebook.
That said, this chart is but a snapshot of the entire war (dated 721999.M41), so I wouldn't guarantee that it may not have been more or less at another time.
If we go by the Chapter Approved article, kill-teams can range from between 5 to10 members (either Deathwatch Marines or Ordo Xenos operatives, or any mix thereof).

Mr Morden wrote:I would have thought they would have a Thunderhawk or similar to expedite their rapid response?

That seems likely. Probably an Inquisition Thunderhawk, though.
The Index Astartes article did say that they can requisition anything they need (from local forces or from the Inquisition); they essentially operate with Inquisitorial authority, regardless of whether they're actually led by an Inquisitor or "just" a Deathwatch Captain. When an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor is absent, the Captain assumes not only his position as teamleader but also his task and influence.

Uhlan wrote:I honestly don't know if the SoB operate in such large numbers as to constitute an army or not. I have always wondered about that. It seems to me that they operate in small groups on singular targets from what very limited knowledge I have about them.

It really depends. At times they're elite kill-teams performing what amounts to sanctioned assassinations when they take down an Apostate Cardinal. At other times, they form the spearhead of a Crusade force and deploy in the thousands.

I think the main difference is between the Major Orders and the Minor Orders. The Major Orders can have up to 7.000 Battle Sisters, and these are also the ones featured most whenever you read about the Sororitas fighting in some huge conflict. The Minor Orders are often little more than a few hundred Sisters, so they only get the "small" jobs like accompanying Inquisitors, guarding shrines or safeguarding pilgrim routes.

Just because I like numbers so much, here is the chart from the Third War of Armageddon. As you can see, the two Major Orders deployed on the planet had a combined troop strength of about 1.000 Sisters. Also, the Orders Militant are occasionally forced to purge entire Space Marine Chapters, which I'm fairly sure requires a somewhat larger force concentration.

Deployment Organisation
Preceptory: up to 1.000 Sisters
Commandery: up to 200 Sisters
Mission: up to 50 Sisters
Squad: up to 20 Sisters

Uhlan wrote:Personally, I'd like to see a Codex: Adminstratum... smothering the unclean in red tape.

1st edition had rules for them ...

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Or take a squad of sternguard as allies and paint them with deathwatch colors. GW shouldn't have to come out with rules for every minor army.

This definitely this!! I miss the days when the reason you took a different space marine chapter was because you really liked the fluff or the models and not because it gave you all kinds of stupidly overpowered special rules and units and cheaper points costs as well.

Skriker