Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Both these tanks are in my consideration as a 2 of in my 1500 and 2000 point armies. I'm trying to determine which one would be the best choice for an unknown tournament meta. For what it's worth, I've been seeing Stelek put Griffons into almost all his IG lists he's created since 6th over the Hydra.

Is there something I'm missing with why you would choose a Griffon over the Hydra?

In my very limited experience (I played 2 years ago and haven't played 6th yet) the Hydra is just better because it can take on flyers much better, (ignores their Jink too), isn't open-topped, longer range, and is more accurate. Yes, the Griffon has reroll scatter for it's large blast and could potentially do more damage because it's a large blast if it doesn't scatter but IMO it's a bit less reliable than a Hydra.

Can anyone help me decide which vehicle of these 2 would be a better choice? Would appreciate any insight into this.
Rest of my army is CCS, Melta Vet Chims, 2 LR Demonlishers, and 2 Vendettas.

I'd take the hydra. I'm not a fan of the griffin at the best of times. I feel the hydra would fit into your list nicely. You have demolishers and melta vets for enemy heavy tanks and the demolishers can pound infantry. The vendettas lascannons are good at transport popping. The hydra will take on enemy flyers which will be prevelent in 6th. You could use the vendettas and get them into dogfights which they'd do well in but I assume they're carrying troops which should be their primary goal. Plus if they're taking on aircraft, what will you use against transports? The griffin won't do very well in this role.

I guess it really depends on what you're expecting in the tournament.

You're already bringing the best anti-air unit in the game (vendettas) so flyers should not be much of a worry for you.

If you think that people will be spamming more than 2 flyers then perhaps the hydras would be good. Also, if you think you'll be facing lots of skimmers the Hydras are good. The rest of the targets will be getting hit on 6s.

The griffon would be good if you're low on anti-horde weaponry. The chance to hit is good since you get a re-roll on the scatter. Then since the wounding is determined from the hole of the blast you can deny what little cover exists now. Finally, you can snipe at characters and special weapons. A giant mortar is of course a great sniper weapon.

The griffon could actually be used against vehicles and skimmers too. With the large blast, re-roll and not having to be centered on the vehicle to do full damage you can probably hit things fairly reliably. The problem though is that even on AV 10 you need a 4 to glance and get no assistance on the penetration table if you manage to pen a vehicle. You could conceivably hit multiple vehicles with one blast though. It's just that you probably won't take off more than 1 hull point.

I like the idea of taking the griffon, but honestly it will be mostly useful only against foot slogging T3 models or those without power armor.

If you have 75 spare points, I'd consider taking Marbo. That guy is beast now that you would based on proximity.

bogalubov wrote:
I guess it really depends on what you're expecting in the tournament.

You're already bringing the best anti-air unit in the game (vendettas) so flyers should not be much of a worry for you.

If you think that people will be spamming more than 2 flyers then perhaps the hydras would be good. Also, if you think you'll be facing lots of skimmers the Hydras are good. The rest of the targets will be getting hit on 6s.

The griffon would be good if you're low on anti-horde weaponry. The chance to hit is good since you get a re-roll on the scatter. Then since the wounding is determined from the hole of the blast you can deny what little cover exists now. Finally, you can snipe at characters and special weapons. A giant mortar is of course a great sniper weapon.

The griffon could actually be used against vehicles and skimmers too. With the large blast, re-roll and not having to be centered on the vehicle to do full damage you can probably hit things fairly reliably. The problem though is that even on AV 10 you need a 4 to glance and get no assistance on the penetration table if you manage to pen a vehicle. You could conceivably hit multiple vehicles with one blast though. It's just that you probably won't take off more than 1 hull point.

I like the idea of taking the griffon, but honestly it will be mostly useful only against foot slogging T3 models or those without power armor.

If you have 75 spare points, I'd consider taking Marbo. That guy is beast now that you would based on proximity.

Interesting thoughts. But wouldn't the Hydras 4x TL shots still be just as good against most horde-ish units? Also all my Chimeras are equipped with Hull Heavy Flamers so I have a lot of anti-horde scattered throughout the army.

I like the point you bring up on being able to "snipe" characters. However the AP4 on both is underwhelming.

Can you explain why Marbo is good now? What changed now that makes him so good?

syypher wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
I guess it really depends on what you're expecting in the tournament.

You're already bringing the best anti-air unit in the game (vendettas) so flyers should not be much of a worry for you.

If you think that people will be spamming more than 2 flyers then perhaps the hydras would be good. Also, if you think you'll be facing lots of skimmers the Hydras are good. The rest of the targets will be getting hit on 6s.

The griffon would be good if you're low on anti-horde weaponry. The chance to hit is good since you get a re-roll on the scatter. Then since the wounding is determined from the hole of the blast you can deny what little cover exists now. Finally, you can snipe at characters and special weapons. A giant mortar is of course a great sniper weapon.

The griffon could actually be used against vehicles and skimmers too. With the large blast, re-roll and not having to be centered on the vehicle to do full damage you can probably hit things fairly reliably. The problem though is that even on AV 10 you need a 4 to glance and get no assistance on the penetration table if you manage to pen a vehicle. You could conceivably hit multiple vehicles with one blast though. It's just that you probably won't take off more than 1 hull point.

I like the idea of taking the griffon, but honestly it will be mostly useful only against foot slogging T3 models or those without power armor.

If you have 75 spare points, I'd consider taking Marbo. That guy is beast now that you would based on proximity.

Interesting thoughts. But wouldn't the Hydras 4x TL shots still be just as good against most horde-ish units? Also all my Chimeras are equipped with Hull Heavy Flamers so I have a lot of anti-horde scattered throughout the army.

I like the point you bring up on being able to "snipe" characters. However the AP4 on both is underwhelming.

Can you explain why Marbo is good now? What changed now that makes him so good?

If you haven't seen the rule changes, the Hydra can only fire snap shots at non-skimmer/flyers. So you'll be firing at BS 1 against most targets. Twin-linking helps it get some 6s to hit, but it's not going to provide a volume of fire against transports or troops anymore.

As for Marbo, he can as always appear 1 inch away from the enemy. But let's say that you have a group of assault marines with a character and a melta gun hiding in the back so they don't get killed by staying at the front. Now you pop Marbo behind them and throw the demo charge. Since wounding is done closest to closest the guys with upgrades in the back of the unit will be killed off first. So even if some members of the unit survive the demo charge, you can knockout the individual models that make the unit useful and scary.

The problem with taking a squad of two Hydras is, in my view at least, that the fliers will always get the drop on your Hydras and have first pop at destroying them. You can put them in reserve to try and get them on after the fliers but then you run the risk of them coming in too late.

They are also now nowhere near as good against any of the targets they can't hit on their BS (i.e. most things). You'll still get hits in, but not enough to threaten a horde.

The Griffon was one of my favourite artillery pieces in 5th and will probably remain so for small-point games up to 1500. They are very effective against all infantry units that don't have a 2+ save as the re-roll allows you to get some good hits in and force a lot of saves (starting with the model you choose, assuming you hit), some of those saves will fail. I've had a pair of Griffon wipe out whole 10-man MEQ squads more times than I can remember; mostly through forcing 16-20 saves if the squad is bunched up, say after disembarking from a transport. They are also OK at light vehicle busting as you hit on the side and roll 2D6 pick the highest, so things like Vindicators/Predators become targets when you've nothing else worth shooting at.

RE: Marbo - he's slightly better now with wound allocation coming from the firer. If you want those meltagun guys at the back of the unit dead, drop Marbo at the back and lob his demo charge.
^bah, too slow.

Don't bother with the griffon unless you know, specifically, you're going to need it for something. Griffons were way, way worse than hydras, and despite hydras getting worse and griffons getting better, the hydra is still the better buy.

It may be only BS1 against hordes, but with twin-linking, it still gets 2.5 hits. Add to it the 1.5 from the heavy bolter, and 4 hits per turn (most of which ID anything T3, if that matters) really isn't THAT shabby of a horde weapon. It's the same as a griffon hitting 6 models every time it rolls a hit on the scatter die (assuming it rolls a hit 2/3ds of the time, which is being a being a little generous to the griffon). That's not that big of a killing power drop in the ONE THING that the griffon is actually good at.

And then the hydra is better against TEq, and MCs, and any class of ground vehicle, and it's the only one of the two that can even SHOOT at fliers. Really, it's better for everything unless you know in advance that you're up against a lot of Sv4+ foot hordes, and even then, everything on the hydra is also Ap4...

I would go with the 3rd Vendetta over either and make points for an Astropath so your Vendettas arrive on a 2+ and can reroll the side they outflank from.

Hydra really needs interceptor. Hitting ground targets on 6s is terrible and Hydras just get shot first by fliers unless you reserve them. Maybe if fliers are really common in your area Hydras are worth considering but if your hitting stuff on 6's even with twin linked its just not worth it.

I never really used Gryphons opting for Manticores because they are strength 10 and can hurt vehicles as well as hordes.

Wow..this is so all over the place. Was expecting an all in hydra or all in griffon thread. But wow...there are a lot of pros and cons on both sides of the coin that I did not think of.

Like I said in the OP the decision is for a list going to an unknown tournament. So the meta of whether there will be a lot of flyers or lot of horde is unknown. Mostly trying to work on what to get for a meta that could really swing any way.

The rest of the list however is already set in stone. (posted in the OP)

I would choose the griffon unless I knew specifically I was fighting fliers.

You've got a 60+% chance of scoring a direct hit with that reroll, and with barrage sniping, you have a very good chance of knocking out a specific character or upgrade in a squad.

Add on its 2d6 pick highest on vehicles, and it can help shave some hullpoints off parking lots. For the points you pay, it's a great bargain, and any list under 1500pts or so can use it usually. You can buy 2 for the cost of a barebones russ, and it'll help get you all those delicious pie plates that IG know and love.

However, if you play a lot of pointy ears, necrons, or other flier/skimmer spam type armies, you'll probably find yourself needing the hydra instead. It really depends on the meta to be honest.

It depends on the rest of your load out but I consider the Griffon to be a great piece of artillery. It's accurate, It's power is good verses infantry (generally 2+ to wound), Barrage sniping, low cost and a low profile to hide it behind things. It's sucks at vehicles, but you didn't take it for that.

That being said I do like the Hydra. But if their aren't a lot of flyers or skimmers it's not working to it's whole potential.

I would say this decision comes down to the meta in your area.

If you look at my gallery pics in my profile you can see an example of my transformable Hydra/Griffon tank.

If you have a griffon partnered up with something else you can also take advantage of the accurate bombardement rule.

Griffons are one of the most phenomenal units in the codex. Before, Hydras were just as good, if not better, but the change to Skyfire makes them fairly limp when all skimmers/flyers have been destroyed. However, my Griffon squadron has always been MVP of every game I've ever played, dropping 2 large blasts on units for 150 points results in enough dead anything over the course of the game to make me happy. They're accurate, wound on a 2+ vs most units, and can now snipe characters and special weapons.

If you aren't taking any other skyfire units, though, I'd consider a Hydra. Really, I'd get both.

I would once again like to point out the math for the hydra. People who are supporting the griffon seem to be grossly underestimating the killing power of the hydra. You can't just go "oh noes, BS1!" and run away from the hydra, or "yay, reroll scatter!" and ignore the numbers.

I would once again like to point out the math for the hydra. People who are supporting the griffon seem to be grossly underestimating the killing power of the hydra. You can't just go "oh noes, BS1!" and run away from the hydra, or "yay, reroll scatter!" and ignore the numbers.

Alright, let's do the math. Unfortunately the math shows just how badly the Hydra has been nerfed.

 Ailaros wrote:
It may be only BS1 against hordes, but with twin-linking, it still gets 2.5 hits. Add to it the 1.5 from the heavy bolter, and 4 hits per turn (most of which ID anything T3, if that matters) really isn't THAT shabby of a horde weapon. It's the same as a griffon hitting 6 models every time it rolls a hit on the scatter die (assuming it rolls a hit 2/3ds of the time, which is being a being a little generous to the griffon). That's not that big of a killing power drop in the ONE THING that the griffon is actually good at.

Your math is wrong.

TL BS 1 is a 30.55% chance to hit. With four shots, that's only 1.222 hits. Add the 1.5 from the heavy bolter, and you've got less than three hits on average, and half of that is only STR 5. And of course the Hydra allows cover, while the Griffon almost always ignores it. Add in the ability to snipe upgrade models, and the Griffon is clearly better at killing infantry. And not just against hordes, against MEQs neither one of them is all that great, but the Hydra is likely to kill a random meatshield from the front row, while the Griffon can force the melta gunner to roll a pile of saves for its one kill.

And then the hydra is better against TEq

Err, how? The Hydra only wounds on a 2+ with half its shots, and neither of them ignore armor saves. The only possible problem is that many TEQ units are smaller and get fewer hits under a blast weapon, but I'm still not seeing how the Hydra has any meaningful advantage here.

and any class of ground vehicle

Not really. Let's say the target is a Rhino (IOW, the Griffon gains no advantage from hitting side armor), and the edge of the 2.5" radius template can scatter up to 1" from the initial target point without leaving the vehicle. The Griffon has a 26% chance* of scoring a penetrating hit, while the Hydra has a 35% chance. But wait, what if the Rhino has a 5+ cover save (even easier to get in 6th)? Now the Hydra drops to only a 24.5% chance of a penetrating hit, which is worse than the Griffon.

Sure, you can talk about glancing to death with volume of fire, but then you also need to consider targets like a Chimera hull, where the Griffon gains a huge advantage by hitting side armor. The end result is that there are small advantages and disadvantages for each, but the Hydra doesn't really have a clear advantage against light vehicles anymore.



*{(1/3 hit) + (2/3 miss)*(15/36 to get at least part of the template on target)} = 61% chance to hit on each attempt. Twin-linked = 85% chance to hit. STR 6 ordnance vs. AV 11 = 30% chance of a 6 to penetrate.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, the end result of all this is that, unless you need to deal with flyers and/or skimmers, the Griffon is by far the better unit in 6th edition. It's cheap, it's efficient, and the only real drawback is that it occupies the same slot as Medusas/Manticores/etc. However, in a smaller game where you can't afford to fill all of your heavy support slots with the biggest guns, the Griffon is a very good option.

Let's say that when a griffon hits, it hits 5 models. Let's be generous and say it hits 2/3ds of the time. That's an average of 3.3 models hit per turn. Compare that to your 2.7 from the hydra. They're practically the same.

Against TEq, the griffon is worse because terminator bases are larger, I wouldn't expect to hit more than 3 per shot, which makes the hydra force more armor saves. As you note, not a huge advantage, but the griffon can't be said to be substantially better.

As for vehicles. Just how often is a griffon going to cause a vehicle explodes result on a rhino? Not dang often. Being able to glance it to death is going to be much more reliable, which throwing down more hits accomplishes. Plus, with +1S it's not like a hydra can't destroy vehicles outright either.

And let's say, for a moment, that the two vehicles are roughly equal up to this point. What really differentiates them? As you note, the griffin can pick out hidden upgrades, but it isn't a 100% thing. You still have to wound, your opponent can't pass all his LoS! and he can't be in area terrain. Plus, it doesn't work against armies that don't rely on hidden weapons or have a 3+ save.

Meanwhile, the hydra is death incarnate to skimmers and fliers. Something against which there isn't a whole lot of defense.

So, if you have two roughly equal choices, then you've got to ask yourself, what do you need more of, a couple more dead guardsmen and possibly picking a meltagun out of somewhere, or would it be more useful to have a weapon that shuts down DE, Newcrons, and fliers, including the AV12 kind?

If you know for certain you're never going to come across a skimmer or flier, then fine, take the griffon, but if you have any chance of coming across them, then the small loss of firepower you have against foot hordes is nothing compared to what you gain in return from the hydra.

 Ailaros wrote:
Let's say that when a griffon hits, it hits 5 models. Let's be generous and say it hits 2/3ds of the time. That's an average of 3.3 models hit per turn. Compare that to your 2.7 from the hydra. They're practically the same.

My point is that your math "proving" the Hydra was better was completely wrong. When you had double the autocannon hits from the Hydra, it was "not that big a drop". Now we bring the autocannon down to its actual numbers, and it's still "practically the same". And it's incredibly dishonest to cut the Griffon's assumed hits just to keep it even with the Hydra. If we go back to your original assumption, the Hydra is the clear loser at 2.7 hits to ~4 hits.

Also, giving the Griffon a 2/3 hit rate is hardly "generous" when it has a 69% chance of getting a direct hit (with line of sight, which the Hydra has to have to shoot at all). You've actually underestimated the actual hit rate with your "generous" assumption, and that's ignoring the fact that many of the remaining 31% of the Griffon's shots will still scatter a short enough distance to get a significant number of hits.

Against TEq, the griffon is worse because terminator bases are larger, I wouldn't expect to hit more than 3 per shot, which makes the hydra force more armor saves. As you note, not a huge advantage, but the griffon can't be said to be substantially better.

Err, how does the Hydra force more saves? Even if we assume that any non-zero scatter misses the target entirely (a really poor assumption) and a direct hit only gets three models, the Hydra inflicts an average of 2.01 wounds while the Griffon gets 1.73. And that's the best-case assumption for the Hydra, if we allow even a one inch scatter from the Griffon we bring it up to 1.92 wounds, a pretty tiny difference.

As for vehicles. Just how often is a griffon going to cause a vehicle explodes result on a rhino? Not dang often. Being able to glance it to death is going to be much more reliable, which throwing down more hits accomplishes. Plus, with +1S it's not like a hydra can't destroy vehicles outright either.

Ok, let's change the math to account for glances. Chance to get at least one glance or better:

Hydra: 60% (48% without heavy bolter)

Hydra, target in 5+ cover: 45% (35% without heavy bolter)

Griffon: 39% (34% without heavy bolter)

Ok, so the Hydra does a bit better (assuming the target has cover, which it does most of the time) if we consider glances, but hilariously most of the difference is because it gets to fire its heavy bolter at full BS. Of course that's just considering Rhinos, if we consider Chimeras (I hear mech IG are popular) the Griffon has a decisive advantage. Overall it's hardly a case that, as you claimed, the Hydra is better against "any class of ground vehicle".

And let's say, for a moment, that the two vehicles are roughly equal up to this point. What really differentiates them? As you note, the griffin can pick out hidden upgrades, but it isn't a 100% thing. You still have to wound, your opponent can't pass all his LoS! and he can't be in area terrain. Plus, it doesn't work against armies that don't rely on hidden weapons or have a 3+ save.

1) Most upgrades aren't on a character, so they don't get a LOS roll. Forget about the worthless sergeants, most of the time you're going to be shooting at heavy/special weapons.

2) Very few armies don't rely on upgrade weapons, especially if you focus on the top-tier armies. Every Imperial army depends on them, and many xenos armies do too.

3) Even with a 3+ save you're likely to kill the target. The poor melta gunner has to keep rolling 3+ saves until he dies, and a Griffon can easily give him a nice pile of dice to roll.

Meanwhile, the hydra is death incarnate to skimmers and fliers. Something against which there isn't a whole lot of defense.

Not a whole lot of defense? Did you miss the Vendetta (awesome AA and awesome at other stuff too), punisher cannon Vulture (absurdly effective at removing AV 10/11 aircraft) which have the advantage of taking up a much less important slot? Or the Avenger and Thunderbolt, if you're willing to spend your heavy slots on AA? Or the Sabre platforms, which take up your least crowded FOC slot AND can even score objectives while they shoot at flyers?

Really, if you can't get more AA weapons in your IG army than you could ever need, you aren't even trying.

Vendettas are the best IG solution to fliers.

The bulk of the debate is math hammering small differences between a hydra and griffon v rhinos. The difference is small, let's look at what is not small.

1.3 ac hits v meq, or a large pie. If the meq move to maximum 2" dispersion the pie will still catch more, and the squad is deployed to minimize pies rather than maximize rapid fire. I don't know about you but my guardsmen don't like bolters.

Against other IG it's absolute murder.
It ignores fnp on t3 de.
Xenos like tau, eldar, and necron warriors have a lot of 4+ armor saves, and griffins murder them.

Good against meq and great against xenos, I'm sold on the Griffin.

Even against your standard MEQ force, the Griffon can force a bucket of saves. Even if the Marines are spread out to max 2 inch, you can score a boat load of hits, and most players dont take the time to measure the 2 inch gap, they just kindda guess it, which works even more in the griffons favor. I think personally, Id run griffons over the Hydra, simply because as stated, fliers can be dealt with by MANY other units in the game, where as a single griffon squadron can murder units, they cause death to Space Marines, just imagine when its against a Horde or an army that isnt allowed that armor save.

 KingCracker wrote:
Even against your standard MEQ force, the Griffon can force a bucket of saves. Even if the Marines are spread out to max 2 inch, you can score a boat load of hits, and most players dont take the time to measure the 2 inch gap, they just kindda guess it, which works even more in the griffons favor. I think personally, Id run griffons over the Hydra, simply because as stated, fliers can be dealt with by MANY other units in the game, where as a single griffon squadron can murder units, they cause death to Space Marines, just imagine when its against a Horde or an army that isnt allowed that armor save.

I have noticed MEQ players don't take them serious until you dump 9 wounds onto a squad that's clumped up. After that they start treating a Griffin like it's a basilisk.

A hydra also IDs T3 with its autocannon, and all of its weapons are Ap4.

If you dump 9 wounds on a tac squad with a griffon (which, really, how often is this actually happening?), you only throw down 7.5 wounds for 2.5 dead marines. In pretty dang ideal circumstances.

Furthermore, the griffon is only really good against light infantry, but what's in the rest of your army? Probably a lot of heavy bolters and multilasers, or a HUGE amount of lasguns (or possibly both). You already HAVE a lot of anti-infantry. You don't start with anti-transport or anti-flier.

Yes, the vendettas are also awesome at this job, but it's not a completely equal comparison. The vendetta has to start in reserves, doesn't ignore jink or evade saves, costs twice as much (assuming heavy bolters, which are no longer a bad buy), and fills a different FO slot. There is still a reason to take hydras in a world of vendettas.

 Ailaros wrote:
A hydra also IDs T3 with its autocannon, and all of its weapons are Ap4.

If you dump 9 wounds on a tac squad with a griffon (which, really, how often is this actually happening?), you only throw down 7.5 wounds for 2.5 dead marines. In pretty dang ideal circumstances.

Furthermore, the griffon is only really good against light infantry, but what's in the rest of your army? Probably a lot of heavy bolters and multilasers, or a HUGE amount of lasguns (or possibly both). You already HAVE a lot of anti-infantry. You don't start with anti-transport or anti-flier.

Yes, the vendettas are also awesome at this job, but it's not a completely equal comparison. The vendetta has to start in reserves, doesn't ignore jink or evade saves, costs twice as much (assuming heavy bolters, which are no longer a bad buy), and fills a different FO slot. There is still a reason to take hydras in a world of vendettas.

Without interceptor, the Hydra will be shot by the flier first though. It can't really do its job if it's dead so I think that has to be factored in. Plus the enemy will be gunning to knock out your Hydras before the fliers come in too. This is possible for them to accomplish as you need LOS for the Hydra to work.

The griffon can chill out of sight and still do most of its work.

 Ailaros wrote:
Furthermore, the griffon is only really good against light infantry, but what's in the rest of your army?

We've already established that the Griffon is about equal to the Hydra at killing (non-skimmer) transports. It's better in some ways and worse in others, but overall if the Griffon isn't a good anti-transport unit than the Hydra isn't either.

Yes, the vendettas are also awesome at this job, but it's not a completely equal comparison. The vendetta has to start in reserves, doesn't ignore jink or evade saves, costs twice as much (assuming heavy bolters, which are no longer a bad buy), and fills a different FO slot.

1) Starting in reserve is a good thing for an AA unit, because it ensures that you actually get to shoot at the flyer instead of just dying as soon as it arrives.

2) The Vendetta costs twice as much because it has better guns, better armor, better mobility, and transport capacity. It's really a case of "you get what you pay for", and possibly the single most absurdly under-priced unit in the game.

3) Taking a different FOC slot is a good thing. IG heavy support is an incredibly crowded slot with lots of good options, while fast attack only has the Hellhound and Vulture as competition (and the Vulture and Vendetta are really similar units anyway). If you have a choice of which slot to put your AA in, fast attack is the obvious choice.

There is still a reason to take hydras in a world of vendettas.

Of course there is. The Hydra is still an efficient AA unit, and a perfectly legitimate choice if you're really concerned about flyers and/or skimmers.

However, my point is that you're absolutely wrong about the Hydra beating the Griffon because AA is so difficult to obtain elsewhere. IG have an abundance of good AA units in multiple FOC slots, and it's very easy to take strong AA firepower no matter how many Griffons you have.

 KingCracker wrote:
...Even if the Marines are spread out to max 2 inch, you can score a boat load of hits, and most players dont take the time to measure the 2 inch gap, they just kindda guess it, which works even more in the griffons favor...

That's the second best possible thing I can see the enemy doing when I take artillery. They think it saves them, but it just guarantee's that I get at least 2-3 hits. If you've got a 10 man squad, maxed out in the 2" range (base to base), you now have a squad that takes up an area of 13x13"... Pretty hard to miss.

Peregrine wrote:We've already established that the Griffon is about equal to the Hydra at killing (non-skimmer) transports. It's better in some ways and worse in others, but overall if the Griffon isn't a good anti-transport unit than the Hydra isn't either.

edited out due stupidity

Take the Griffon... or three of them. Remember the golden rule of Guard!

Also, are codex Guard armies allowed to take that Vulture now? Lot of talk about it here....

Hydras kill Rhino's as well as my infantry squads kill flyers.
I can take 20 guardsmen with 2 autocannons and 2 grenade launchers and order a bring it down. They'll get 4 S7 shots that hit on 6's with re-rolls and 2 S6 shots on 6's with re-rolls.

If you think the hydra is useful at killing transports, then you should agree that infantry are useful at killing flyers, making the hydra redundant.

Why are we discounting the griffons heavy bolter in the mathhammer?

I'm a big griffon fan. The models are short and easy to hide. Battle cannons make you want to bunch up in cover, griffons punish you for doing so. It's a good synergy.


-Matt

at papthrax. griffons can't kill Av13 or higher, as they are only S6.

However, if Inm trying to kill transports, the griffon really seems like the answer to me over the hydra unless they're skimmers, and that's for one major reason. Aegis defence lines.

Yeah, your hydra has that cute little ignore jink save special rule. I'll take my ignoring cover due to center of blast gladly. Many lists I'm seeing are parking lots behind the line, and while a griffon isn't penning them easily, it's hitting on side armor, ignoring the +4 cover save, more accurate, and can shear off hullpoints like there's no tomorrow. 3 griffons could easily weaken a gunline if they had to, and thats only if they had nothing better to shoot at. You should be cracking the transports first, then firing the griffons, but if you had to use the griffon, it's not a bad choice in that role. And since hullpoints are far more reliable at killing stuff now...

All that said though, usually once I hit 1,250 to 1,500Pts I start looking at the bigger guns, as we only get so many heavy slots. However, if dual FoC ever takes off, i could see myself bringing like 12 in a list just for kicks and giggles

Yeha you're right, misread ordnance rules. my bad.

I think this discussion is getting more complex than it needs to.

thanks to so many of the variables being controlled... the cost, the heavy bolter, the armor values, this is really about as cut and dry of a decision as can be.

The hydra is clearly better when you are targetting any unit that consists of only a single model.

The griffon is clearly better when you are targetting a unit that consists of multiple models.

Hydras are the ONLY option between the two that can affect enemy flyers.

That is about it for discussion. Take a hydra if the rest of your army composition is lacking in "one-model unit" kill, or if you need to add anti-flyer. Otherwise, take the griffon.

And hydras don't have to die to flyers coming in from reserve, as they can also come in from reserve, even shooting only half of their TL hydra autocannons at bull BS and snap firing the other, they will down flyers with frightening efficiency. A pair of hydras showing up from reserve get between 4-5 hits on a flyer, that is likely to outright kill armor 10-11 flyers and has a decent chance of significantly damaging (or possibly killing) armor 12 flyers. All for 150 points.

I will agree that for 130-140 points, a vendetta does the anti-flyer job slightly more efficiently from reserve, but I also think that there are other excellent fast attack choices that you may want to field. I've been blown away by how devildogs benefit from the new rules, as an example.