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 Kevin949 wrote:


No, he's not engaged, read the book.

"read the book"?? really?? that is your response? To assume I simply 'forgot' to read the section I am *quoting* from??

It says the chariot and rider are not engaged.

Tell you what, why don't you provide the quote that says they are "not engaged"??



Models get out of base contact on a regular basis during close combats, that does not end the combat; they simply Pile In during the next Initiative step. There is nothing in the Chariot rules that stop you from continuing to go through the Initiative steps,and to continue the Pile-Ins, and to complete Combat Resolution and the final Pile in.

This is not a normal circumstance and you cannot follow the standard infantry rules for assault with a chariot, in any regard.

Actually, you *have* to follow the standard rules, unless they specifically tell you otherwise.

So you still go through each Init step,
Models that can still Pile in
You still have combat Res
You still have a final Pile In at the end. (assuming there is more than vehicles involved)



When the Captain and Assault squad charge the Chariot and Lord; all 4 are involved in that combat. If the chariot dies.... that still leaves the other 3 involved in the combat.
Being locked (or not) does not change much of the rules of the actual combat; it actually has almost no effect. Infantry units still pile in, still go by init step, etc etc.
The Lord is not considered Locked, only as long as a passenger... once the chariot dies, the Lord is no longer a passenger, but is *still* involved in that combat.

coredump wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:


No, he's not engaged, read the book.

"read the book"?? really?? that is your response? To assume I simply 'forgot' to read the section I am *quoting* from??

It says the chariot and rider are not engaged.

Tell you what, why don't you provide the quote that says they are "not engaged"??

Models get out of base contact on a regular basis during close combats, that does not end the combat; they simply Pile In during the next Initiative step. There is nothing in the Chariot rules that stop you from continuing to go through the Initiative steps,and to continue the Pile-Ins, and to complete Combat Resolution and the final Pile in.

This is not a normal circumstance and you cannot follow the standard infantry rules for assault with a chariot, in any regard.

Actually, you *have* to follow the standard rules, unless they specifically tell you otherwise.

So you still go through each Init step,
Models that can still Pile in
You still have combat Res
You still have a final Pile In at the end. (assuming there is more than vehicles involved)

When the Captain and Assault squad charge the Chariot and Lord; all 4 are involved in that combat. If the chariot dies.... that still leaves the other 3 involved in the combat.
Being locked (or not) does not change much of the rules of the actual combat; it actually has almost no effect. Infantry units still pile in, still go by init step, etc etc.
The Lord is not considered Locked, only as long as a passenger... once the chariot dies, the Lord is no longer a passenger, but is *still* involved in that combat.

Sure thing: Pg. 82, directly under "Fighting From a Chariot", last sentence - "Note that, as a vehicle, the Chariot (and it's rider, Whilst embarked) cannot be locked in combat."

Yes, I assumed because you obviously didn't. *Shrug*

Luide wrote:

Neither the chariot nor its rider are ever locker in combat.

this is only true until the chariot dies.
But as before, 'being locked' really isn't important to this discussion. "Being locked' doesn't really matter until next turn. (for movement and shooting purposes.) What is important, is that they were all involved in the same close combat; and thus need to follow the rules for such.

Chariots rider stops being in BTB the moment Chariot is destroyed, because Chariot special rules stop applying at that moment. Note that this happens before Chariots passenger disembark.

I agree. But again, this isn't overly relevant. It happens all the time in a combat that a model starts the combat in base contact, but due to combat loses, end up not in base contact.
That is why the Pile in mechanic is used in subsequent Inintiative steps.

Timed version:
1) Chariot is alive. Passenger is considered BTB with models that are BTB with Chariot.
2) Chariot gets destroyed. Passenger is no longer considered BTB with models that were BTB with the Chariot

Again, completely agree. And again, analogous to any other combat where you start in base contact, but a model dies and leaves you out of base contact. You are still part of that combat. (Being locked is not a criteria.)

3) Passenger Disembarks, following normal disembark rules for wrecked vehicles or for destroyed vehicles, whichever is the case. (snip) .

Yep, sure does. And then we move to the next init step, and the appropriate models Pile In.
If they can't get into base contact, we then proceed to Combat Res, and then the final PIle in.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:
[

Sure thing: Pg. 82, directly under "Fighting From a Chariot", last sentence - "Note that, as a vehicle, the Chariot (and it's rider, Whilst embarked) cannot be locked in combat."

Yes, I assumed because you obviously didn't. *Shrug*

If you don't know the difference between 'engaged' and 'locked'; perhaps a rules discussion is not the best place for you.

Otherwise, you may want to respond to the various points I raised...

Paitryn wrote:p33 clearly expresses that under any circumstance, they may assault on the turn they disembark, even if it explodes.

This is correct, emphasis mine

Paitryn wrote:Even is the word people keep looking over when trying to say they cannot assault. So they are allowed to assault.

You yourself said they're only allowed to assault on turn they disembark, so why are you arguing that they're somehow allowed to assault on a (player) turn they did not disembark? Assault vehicle USR only overrides normal disembarking rules on the (player) turn unit disembarked and normal disembarking rules specify that "Unit cannot declare a charge in their subsequent Assault Phase".
This means that if I'm player A and I have Assault Vehicle that is destroyed at the Fight sub-phase of either Turn 2A or Turn 2B (=game turn 2), now disembarked unit is not allowed to launch assault during Game Turn 3.

Paitryn wrote:while RAW may be questionable, I haven't found a TO that disagrees with what I think reguarding it, so I'm ok if people on Dakka do not.

RAW is clear. No assaults from that were forced to disembark from Assault Vehicles that did not die during your turn before Charge sub-phase. Now, TO's often make rulings that are against RAW and they're completely within their rights to do so. They often make rulings that are against RAI too, sometimes at same time.

For examples, you can read NOVA FAQ that has mix of strict RAW rulings (FMC's not losing Hard to Hit from Grounded), RAI rulings, rulings that are against RAW and RAI (complicated method of resolving MSS in challenges, Anrakyr being able to use MitM while embarked while same not being applied to Coteaz and IBEY)

To recap:
Game Turn 2: Assault vehicle is wrecked. Unit disembarks.
Game Turn 3: Unit is not allowed to declare charge because 1) it is their subsequent Assault Phase and 2) they did not disembark this player turn.

Also note that Assault vehicle doesn't work if the Vehicle suffers exploded result or if the passengers did emergency disembark, because the rule says "Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle..."

coredump wrote:

Luide wrote:
Timed version:
1) Chariot is alive. Passenger is considered BTB with models that are BTB with Chariot.
2) Chariot gets destroyed. Passenger is no longer considered BTB with models that were BTB with the Chariot

Again, completely agree. And again, analogous to any other combat where you start in base contact, but a model dies and leaves you out of base contact. You are still part of that combat. (Being locked is not a criteria.)

3) Passenger Disembarks, following normal disembark rules for wrecked vehicles or for destroyed vehicles, whichever is the case. (snip) .

Yep, sure does. And then we move to the next init step, and the appropriate models Pile In.
If they can't get into base contact, we then proceed to Combat Res, and then the final PIle in.

After re-reading the rules, I think you're correct. I got just too focused on the Passenger not being locked in combat (note that he is not locked in combat until someone gets BTB with him) and equating that with combat ending, but it's not same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Freyzor wrote:This getting pretty distorted me thinks.
p79 Disembarkation Restrictions give restrictions for a normal Disembark move which takes place in the players movement phase. The player cant charge in the subsequent assault phase and is then referring to the players own in this very same turn. This does not affect future turns by either player. Therefore charging in the players next turn is fine.

You're wrong. Read the rules again. I've cited them multiple times in this thread, you're discounting the "their" from "their subsequent Shooting/Assault Phase". This means you're reading rules as "next Shooting/Assault Phase" when they actually read "your next Shooting/Assault Phase".

Freyzor wrote: p79 Emergency Disembarkation overrides this to state that the unit cannot perform any voluntary actions for the rest of the turn. It still does not affect the players future turns. This can happen, and most often will in the enemies turn but the next turn of the disembarking unit will be unaffected still.

This is true. But they still have to follow all restrictions for normal disembark.

Freyzor wrote:Bottom line. You can assault in any following turn regardless of how you disembark. You can only assault with a unit in the turn they disembark if it is their turn and the vehicle the disembark from is an Assault Vehicle.

Absolutely wrong. Rules have changed from 5e. In 6e, disembark restrictions apply to your next Shooting / Assault Phase.