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Yeahhh, not so much. A rhino is a box and 25% of that box is blocked by a forward facing wall and that is why it has cover. A war walker on the other hand is a bulky object resting on two long skinny legs. those 2 legs even if completely blocked wouldn't make up 25% of the warwalker's size.

Unless you are going to be doing some water displacement, or something ridiculous like that, then this argument could go on forever. The rules aren't even specific enough to be arguing over this. The models "facing" needs to be 25% covered. And its front "facing" is over 25% covered. It doesnt say that 25% of the "Mass" of the model, or "the space the model takes up" It just says facing.. That is how I interpret it. I have had no one say a single thing or question it in the games/ tournaments I've played it.

I've asked a tourney organizer for the upcoming tourney I'm attending in November to address this. If I can get a cover save, then this would be absolutely ace. It would make them quite resilient. Running 9 of them (which I typically do) with Eldrad/Farseer combo could be quite nasty. Something I didn't even consider, but will definitely try if it is allowed.

You take 9 walkers?! Jesus that is awesome! I had t work my way up to 3 of them lol. What load-outs do you take? All scatter lasers? If I owned 9, I would probable have one group outflank with shuriken cannons, one group with missile launchers behind the defense line, and one group with scatter lasers behind the defense line.

In 5th, generally 2 x 3 w/ Scatterlasers and 1 x 3 with EML. However, that was with dual Autarchs. I'm still trying to figure out what can potentially work in 6th. I had a lot of trouble running Shuriken Cannons in 5th due to limited range.

I'm pretty much up in the air right now. In 5th, I'd generally run 18-20 vehicles, but I'm not sure how that will fare now with the changes to assaulting vehicles and the glancing chart. I can't reserve the entire army and if I don't get first turn, I'm stuck weathering a turn of fire which can wreck a good portion of the army.

Worst case scenario is to stick the War Walkers behind Wave Serpents for a 5+ cover and cast Fortune/Guide on them. Not as good, but leaves no doubt regarding if 25% is covered on the War Walkers.

However, with a mech build, I seriously seeing that Eldrad/Farseer is necessary in order to cast 3 x Fortune and 2 x Guide per turn.

We'll see. Once I can get in some games next month, I'll be in a better position to discuss what seems to work or not. Right now, I'm all in theory mode.

Just came up with this list. Walker Spam. This is under the idea that a defense line will give walkers a 4+ save (as that is what I believe it will do and I have never had an opponent or tournament director say otherwise).

Eldrad
Autarch- mandiblaster, power weapon, fusion gun, warp jump pack

10 guardians- scatter laser
10 guardians- scatter laser
3 jetbikes +warlcok- embolden, singing spear

10 warp spiders- exarch, withdraw, dual spinners, powerblades

3x walkers- 6 scatter lasers
3x walkers- 6 missile launchers
3x walkers- 6 shuriken cannons

Eldrad, bot guardian teams, missile walkers, and scatter walkers all behind the line (make a half bubble with it). Eldrad guides, guides, and fortunes. SHOOT EVERYTHING.

Shuriken cannons walkers outflank. They have 30" effective range so they will be able to hit anyhting on the board except the stuff in the dead center.

Warp spiders and autarch deep strike in and nock people off an objective/ harass/ blow stuff up/ reak havok/ induce mayhem/ achieve linebreaker.

Jetbikes turboboost to contest.

All i know is that if people are going to get soooo stickler as to say 25% of the facing isn't covered when its close, I'll just get smaller Warwalkers, the older models from the 90's are smaller so then 25% would be achieved.
So if you want to argue over 25%, then I will just go buy smaller models, problem solved.

Nologik wrote:
All i know is that if people are going to get soooo stickler as to say 25% of the facing isn't covered when its close, I'll just get smaller Warwalkers, the older models from the 90's are smaller so then 25% would be achieved.
So if you want to argue over 25%, then I will just go buy smaller models, problem solved.

My thoughts exactly. I'd save some $$ too in the process. Really if people are stupid and stickler, then I will be stupid and stickler myself. Im not breaking the game by trying to get a cover save.

Not breaking the game, just playing their game.. just saying.. It's not enough that we play with a 4th edition codex, it's bad when people get upset when you just try to play your game lol

Nologik wrote:
All i know is that if people are going to get soooo stickler as to say 25% of the facing isn't covered when its close, I'll just get smaller Warwalkers, the older models from the 90's are smaller so then 25% would be achieved.
So if you want to argue over 25%, then I will just go buy smaller models, problem solved.

Most people would let you take the save if its close to 25%... no one wants to waste time debating if its 23,24, or 25%.

The above pic clearly shows that its not even close to 25%... The legs are the only part covered, and those tiny little legs are NOT 25% of the warwalker...front facing or not.

I would have to agree it's not even close to 25%, its over 25%. Considering you don't count weapons for hits, and it's only front facing. It's actually over the 25% by at least 10%.
So by my calculations its over.

Speaking of war walkers, I haven't really see anyone take starcannons on them ? I've been thinking of slowly starting an eldar army as allies to begin with and a squad of 2 walkers with starcannons for 180pts seems good!

8 s6 ap2 shots at 36", that can be guided against a doomed target.... plus cover of an aegis (i know there's a debate around that atm on here), plus outflank

Sounds pretty good to me!?

 BlueDagger wrote:
Yeahhh, not so much. A rhino is a box and 25% of that box is blocked by a forward facing wall and that is why it has cover. A war walker on the other hand is a bulky object resting on two long skinny legs. those 2 legs even if completely blocked wouldn't make up 25% of the warwalker's size.

the skinny legs are not 25% of the model.

I'd definitely get a TO to rule one way or another before going into a tournie and relying on the Aegis to provide your Walkers Cover as a reliable strategy.

That being said, if it didn't fly, you could just bring a wave serpent w/spirit stones/star engines to achieve the same effect (or leave off the star engines and be really careful about placement). Or Jet bikes (as the stand would put them solidly in front of the walkers canopy yet skinny enough to allow you to shoot around).

There's a bunch of different ways to provide cover for the walkers. I think the Aegis probably should be ruled as providing cover, but even if it isn't there are other ways to reliably protect your WW's. Cover is not overly difficult to find. The main idea of having 6-9 walkers being fortuned/guided by Eldrad/Farseer while in cover to provide a resilient fire base is a good one. The problem with the setup in 5th was them being relatively static platforms in a fast mech environment. With 6th going more infantry oriented, this isn't as big an issue, and makes WW's in cover great heavy support options for most builds. Aegis providing cover would make the WW's more point and click than otherwise, but even if not there are reliable ways of providing cover to still make it a good idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Yeahhh, not so much. A rhino is a box and 25% of that box is blocked by a forward facing wall and that is why it has cover. A war walker on the other hand is a bulky object resting on two long skinny legs. those 2 legs even if completely blocked wouldn't make up 25% of the warwalker's size.

the skinny legs are not 25% of the model.

25% of the height? I'd say they are.
25% of the material comprising the model? No.

Which criteria you are supposed to use is not explicitly spelled out in the book I don't believe.

 Dash2021 wrote:
I'd definitely get a TO to rule one way or another before going into a tournie and relying on the Aegis to provide your Walkers Cover as a reliable strategy.

That being said, if it didn't fly, you could just bring a wave serpent w/spirit stones/star engines to achieve the same effect (or leave off the star engines and be really careful about placement). Or Jet bikes (as the stand would put them solidly in front of the walkers canopy yet skinny enough to allow you to shoot around).

There's a bunch of different ways to provide cover for the walkers. I think the Aegis probably should be ruled as providing cover, but even if it isn't there are other ways to reliably protect your WW's. Cover is not overly difficult to find. The main idea of having 6-9 walkers being fortuned/guided by Eldrad/Farseer while in cover to provide a resilient fire base is a good one. The problem with the setup in 5th was them being relatively static platforms in a fast mech environment. With 6th going more infantry oriented, this isn't as big an issue, and makes WW's in cover great heavy support options for most builds. Aegis providing cover would make the WW's more point and click than otherwise, but even if not there are reliable ways of providing cover to still make it a good idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

the skinny legs are not 25% of the model.

25% of the height? I'd say they are.
25% of the material comprising the model? No.

Which criteria you are supposed to use is not explicitly spelled out in the book I don't believe.

I agree you can certainly find cover for warwalkers, but it is more likely to be the 5+ kind rather than the 4+ kind. The wave serpants are going to give 5+ cover most of the time. You could potentially get 4+ or even completely obscured with the waveserpant though.

25% of the height is meaningless. You can get cover from any combination of angles left right, top bottom. why 25% of the height would be important is beyond me.

 Sarigar wrote:

 Razgriz22 wrote:
Cheaper and more survivable option.....

Aegis defense line
Quad gun
Eldrad
3 war walkers with scatter lasers

Guide doom and fortune
Death for enemy, profit for self.

Walkers with a re-rollable 4+ cover. I never thought i'd say it but that is a survivable walker. Eldrad mans the gun. If you want to give eldrad a unit to be in take 10 rangers and put them behind the wall too.

Is the Aegis defense line tall enough to provide 25% cover for the War Walkers? I've yet to play 6th ed yet and have been trying to figure out how it changes the way Eldar will play.

I use to own Warwalkers, the proper sized ones... and No... the wall will not the bulk of it's size is in it's fat top headed section... a problem for the Stilt walkers out there is that exact ruling if someone tried that on me I'd be glaring that 1 to 2 inches of it's legs are shielded on a 6-7 inch model with it's fat head at the top.

Ultimately I think the problem most of us are having with this is the fact you are trying to manufacture yourself a cover save that goes beyond a friendly scope, the nicest i would ever get in this scenario is say "Roll a die for the result" even then i would actually argue for a no and not sway on it to be 100% honest. You have outflanking and other methods to get yourself a cover save and are trying to be spoiled and say 25% of a particular element allows you to abuse a rule. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU SAY YOU WILL JUST BUY OLDER MODELS that gets under my skin every freaking time because not only is that a sign of poor sportsmanship that is also a sign I'd demand a TO just throw your ass out of my game for saying it. The point isn't to get those models for cheese it is to not punish old time players who don't want to re-invest into new models, it's people like that which send the wrong vibes about 40k and burn out the population and send them fleeing to Warmachine.

For the love of god eldar already have the mobility card now you want to buy your cover saves and be damned if you aren't allowed to rather than play the game and use cover... Tactically? Look man sometimes cover is your buddy and sometimes it isn't if getting cover is so important to you that you want to argue your own ruling we can't stop you from robbing people of a very crucial rule and advantage but at the same time it's clear your tactics only revolve around that and you certainly don't seem to have alternatives to fight that logic such as "well that's fine I suppose I could just Outflank with them, or find terrian during my scout move, or use vehicle shields, yadda yadda yadda."

Why is it I only seem to find rule nazi's being breed before my eyes in codex eldar? I'd love to see you guys get an update but that shouldn't be your crutch for poor sportsmanship either.

This thread sickens me. The people's ignorant comments about trying to achieve a cover save for a weak unit to make it more reliable and longer lasting. Isnt that a tactic that EVERYONE try's to do?! Unless you enjoy standing your models in the open. People are modeling different forms of power weapons onto their unit to get better results. So buying an older unit to save money and have a smaller profile is worse?! Get outta here. Book states 25% of the facing of the model. Does it say the material that comprises the model needs to be 25% obscured? No. It never mentions the "space between walkers legs" or Anythig specific for that matter. And to the guy who thinks walkers are 6" tall or more..... You are horribly wrong. They are no more then 4". Arguing with people like you clearly does nothing.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
Isnt that a tactic that EVERYONE try's to do?! Unless you enjoy standing your models in the open. People are modeling different forms of power weapons onto their unit to get better results.

No, Not everyone is trying to obtain cover like a crack addict needs drugs...

Also with the mobility, outflanking to appear in later rounds behind cover on the flanks of the battlefield or scout to allow you to move outside your deployment zone to obtain cover early before the game begins are all methods you CAN get cover. But I am saying when you are trying to intentionally screw someone over for the sake of power then you are just announcing you are the exact type of player that i finds tend to ruin this game. If you think protecting the shins of an osterache is any form of defense for it then you wouldn't be someone i ever ... ever... EVER would give leeway with rules with.

I am normally real nice when it comes to games i bend rules if it makes sense but if you want to stay hard iron on this rather than try and learn how to play with those models then maybe tabletop startegy games aren't the best fit for you man. Either way it's nothing personal, it's just aggervating to hear those words especially with paper thin attempts to justify that Squig poop kind of behavior in a game which is suppose to be about forging narratives and feeling badass when you accomplish something strategy like showing up on a flank with 6 scatter lasers in the woods and mowing down the enemy as they were trying to rush your gunline.

Think smarter not harder.

So please explain the point of an aegis defense line if I'm not suppose to be trying to achieving covet behind it. Isn't that the point of ALL the fortifications? If your mad because GW put in the ability to use them, that's your own problem. Speed isnt as huge as a game changer when a 3+ to hit a fast skimmer can destroy it. My forces are t3 and av10 with 2 hull points. I'll try to achieve cover when I can. So forgive me if I use a new game mechanic (fortifications) to do so. The ruling isn't 100% on the topic. Do we know what counts towards the percentage of the vehicles facing or not? No. We don't. So dont make assumptions about another player you have never met. You have changed this from people discussing 2 sides of a rule into something else entirely. Your rant brought nothing to the debate. All you did was come in and insult players trying to improve their odds by utilizing new game mechanics.

Best thing to do is check with your TO.

And if there is a better ruling or FAQ that determines the outcome of this, there is always other ways to get walkers cover saves. Honestly, I could instead purchase a sky shield landing pad and put my walkers on it for a 4+ invulnerable save. They would even sit higher up then and have a better view.

Ahh yes, true LOS and subjective cover. The reasons I don't play this game competitively with strangers.

GWs rules are pretty clear. Cooperate with your opponent, you are working together to have fun. This concept is flawed at its core.

For what it is worth. Anything even remotely close to 25% cover and LOS is going to be good enough for me. I don't need to nickel-dime anyone to win, and these arguments literally can not be solved within the framework of the 40k rulebook.

My advice to anyone. Just give them the cover save and the LOS. Everyone is happier ultimately.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
So please explain the point of an aegis defense line if I'm not suppose to be trying to achieving covet behind it. Isn't that the point of ALL the fortifications? If your mad because GW put in the ability to use them, that's your own problem. Speed isnt as huge as a game changer when a 3+ to hit a fast skimmer can destroy it. My forces are t3 and av10 with 2 hull points. I'll try to achieve cover when I can. So forgive me if I use a new game mechanic (fortifications) to do so. The ruling isn't 100% on the topic. Do we know what counts towards the percentage of the vehicles facing or not? No. We don't. So dont make assumptions about another player you have never met. You have changed this from people discussing 2 sides of a rule into something else entirely. Your rant brought nothing to the debate. All you did was come in and insult players trying to improve their odds by utilizing new game mechanics.

Best thing to do is check with your TO.

And if there is a better ruling or FAQ that determines the outcome of this, there is always other ways to get walkers cover saves. Honestly, I could instead purchase a sky shield landing pad and put my walkers on it for a 4+ invulnerable save. They would even sit higher up then and have a better view.

It's not the invention of the wall, it's the abuse of it for stupid rules you could get elsewhere, You are an eldar player man, use the terrain and tactics not cheese. The wall is a fine little piece of wargear to hide low height vehicles and infantry behind but your stilts walkers are just too talk and too massive at the top to be considered by almost anyone I've ever played with as "cover" you are claiming it is and i take issue with it because you, unlike a majority of armies do have the ability to simply say "ya know what, i am not gonna even walk down this road of douchery... I'll just go ahead and get something that could be a little more concrete in my favor."

Speed is literally one of the best tools of the eldar not gunlines, though it is a fine back up plan if you don't know how to handle it. Either way the point isn't the model or if you could or couldn't the point is YOU WILL MAKE IT HAPPEN even if your enemy wants to say you can't. Infact you drag a TO into this mess which i dunno if you noticed this. but TO's aren't in the majority of games people play only Tournaments, that means you need a be a big boy and work those things out without sounding like a complete jerk which most people do because of the exact reasons you are stating.

Speeding skimmers have a 5+ cover save just for moving, get them in night fight and guess what they can claim a 3+ and have just as many guns as a war walker with better armor and the ability to negate effects. if you want durability you should look into vipers instead of war walkers if you want the guarantee. But the laughable fact that the piolot and the majority of the model is hiding about the cover just makes me laugh till i realize you are serious and have subjected people to this kind of bad rules arguing. To me the War Walker is an amazing model with the ability to ruin someones day, be it poping in out of no where on the enemies side of the board and wiping them off an objective as they force the enemy to now choose advance or retreat to reclaim objectives. Or they can just support a gun line as well while wading through difficult terrain and saying they are hidden within it due to yet again the impressive outflank ability.

To me sir, it's one thing to use the rule in ignorance, which is 100% forgivable. To me it's disgusting when i see people bringing this to your attention and all you do is retort "Well i'll get a model that will let me then." It is on topic for me because this is a discussion about tactics and you are trying to pass it off as legitimate when it is VERY SHADY at best nor should it be suggested to others to encourage people to start seeing you as TFG. I am insulting you because you are literally trying to continue to justify this ruling and so far few if any have supported the claim. to me you represent a class of gamers which plague the game and slow down a hobby and turn it into a chore. I wish you the best of luck when it comes to victories I even have offered you suggestions and concequences for trying to embrace such an ill conceived action. But it's clear this subject is upsetting you when I call you on BS but offer you alternatives and advise to not seem like a abuser but rather a tactician.

I've said what i needed to. I suggest skimmers for your tactics, they are durable and fast and are great and getting to an objective or holding down a line, if you want something that stands there and shoots you will be in store for someone down the road who will yell at you about your interpenetration of the rule if that is your objective (which is seems to be) to ride the grey area long as you can I am going to say this again. You don't understand how to use the Eldar Correctly and should be asking different questions. Personally I'd take the defense line just for the quad-gun which tears down flyers and provides you an excellent additional gun, but at a high point value. If you are saying the whole point of purchasing the wall those is to give that unit specifically cover then i sadly think you don't realize how much better those points could be serving you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shep wrote:
Ahh yes, true LOS and subjective cover. The reasons I don't play this game competitively with strangers.

GWs rules are pretty clear. Cooperate with your opponent, you are working together to have fun. This concept is flawed at its core.

For what it is worth. Anything even remotely close to 25% cover and LOS is going to be good enough for me. I don't need to nickel-dime anyone to win, and these arguments literally can not be solved within the framework of the 40k rulebook.

My advice to anyone. Just give them the cover save and the LOS. Everyone is happier ultimately.

Wise words, I ultimately restate "i'd be willing to at best to do a dice roll off" but that would have been before i saw the 'well i'll get a model it works for then' Friendly gamer = laid back enemy willing to cut some breaks, even in tournaments around here.

I'm sorry. You are right. You are obviously the know all god of warhammer who has all the right rulings and all the right answers to everyone's questions. Thank you for clarifying that rule in your infinite wisdom. And telling me how to run my lists and my army.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I'm sorry. You are right. You are obviously the know all god of warhammer who has all the right rulings and all the right answers to everyone's questions. Thank you for clarifying that rule in your infinite wisdom. And telling me how to run my lists and my army.

Glad we cleared that up Troll, enjoy what victories you get kid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Onto other subjects, I've been hearing mixed reviews about seer councils are still being viable at this time. I thought with the downgrade of armorbane they aren't as end all be all anymore though i can say fortune while still able to get cover, invuln and armor is Veeeeeeeeeery annoying for most players to deal with. Has anyone ran into something that strikes them down easily or is this just a unit which is bound to be tough no matter the circumstances? I've been trying to give one of my eldar buddies some advice which came down to 3 vipers, 3 walkers, a wave serpent with dire avengers and a farseer, and a falcon with fire dragons and lastly a unit of rangers hiding in the brush. Sadly he sees bad results against me and my Dakkageddon list with orks because it's perscribing to the idea that i have too many wounds to deal with properly before i break the enemy with sheer volume of gunfire and kannons, a warboss holds back with the group incase the enemy comes to blows me with. But obviously assualt isn't something the eldar are keen on meeting orks on the battlefield for.

Would you say the suggestions I've offered him would get the job done at low points or would it be better to reconsider for an all comers list using something else?

We were discussing the rule of obscured/ hull down before you started saying things. I hardy believe that was trolling. No one was insulting anyone until you post. This thread has been quite de-railed. I have had about 50% to do with that. So my apologies. It seems I come off as a sarcastic troll to you and you come off as a not helpful know it all to me. I'm sure neither are actually true.

To get this thread back on topic.... It is labeled eldar and dark eldar and I have seen nothing about dark eldar.

/gravestone here

Dead Forum people, move on out.

To try and get the thread back on some kind of DE/Eldar track:

Back in 4th, one of the most common War Walker load outs was a 50/50 mix of star cannons and scatter lasers.

In 5th, w/ all the 4+ cover, i don't know anyone who took star cannons because they're so damn expensive and the difference between the 3+ save a marine gets and the 4+ you'd have gotten in cover made it inefficient.

Now that cover is mostly 5+, i wonder if we'll see more star cannons.

Tried this list, with good success vs a BA player. It's not hard, but locally, we don't play that hard, so it's about right. with a few tweaks i'm sure you can toughen it up.

1750pts - Eldar w/ DE allies

Farseer - runes of warding, primaris divination power
The Duke

wave serpent w/ scatter lasers, 5 fire dragons

5 dire avengers in wave serpent w/ scatter lasers

5 dire avengers in wave serpent w/ scatter lasers

10 wyches (hekatrix (agoniser)) w/ haywire in raider w/ shock prow and night shields

9 wyches (hekatrix (agoniser)) w/ haywire in raider w/ shock prow and night shields

Nightwing (FW eldar flyer)

3 war walkers w/ 3 scatter lasers, 3 star cannons

3 war walkers w/ 3 scatter lasers, 3 star cannons

Edit: spelling

 chelsea_hollywood wrote:
To try and get the thread back on some kind of DE/Eldar track:

Back in 4th, one of the most common War Walker load outs was a 50/50 mix of star cannons and scatter lasers.

In 5th, w/ all the 4+ cover, i don't know anyone who took star cannons because they're so damn expensive and the difference between the 3+ save a marine gets and the 4+ you'd have gotten in cover made it inefficient.

Now that cover is mostly 5+, i wonder if we'll see more star cannons.

Tried this list, with good success vs a BA player. It's not hard, but locally, we don't play that hard, so it's about right. with a few tweaks i'm sure you can toughen it up.

1750pts - Eldar w/ DE allies

Farseer - runes of warding, primaris divination power
The Duke

wave serpent w/ scatter lasers, 5 fire dragons

5 dire avengers in wave serpent w/ scatter lasers

5 dire avengers in wave serpent w/ scatter lasers

10 wyches (hekatrix (agoniser)) w/ haywire in raider w/ shock prow and night shields

9 wyches (hekatrix (agoniser)) w/ haywire in raider w/ shock prow and night shields

Nightwing (FW eldar flyer)

3 war walkers w/ 3 scatter lasers, 3 star cannons

3 war walkers w/ 3 scatter lasers, 3 star cannons

Edit: spelling

that list is illegal as the duke MUST deploy with a unit of warriors.

also the consensus is that agonizers arent worth it anymore as they are AP3. Better to save 15 points and take a venom blade.

The Duke MUST deploy with a unit of warriors if there are any but if there are none he deploys like any IC (as per the FAQ)

And really, you wouldn't take an agoniser because it's not AP2? The whole point of the star cannons is to remove the 2+ armour; the wyches are there for AV14 and to tarpit assault troops that aren't in 2+ armour.

but to each their own

Edit * 2: spelling

Exergy, i guess you have been seeing what I have too with the agonizer usefulness. It seems now, forcing saves with multiple wounds is doing better/ worth more then dropping 15pts on the agoniser. Sadly, our hekatrix's will probably be sacrificed to the challenges to let the rest of the wyches do their job. Losing 5 pts is better then 15. At least to me.

The only thing I could see agaisnt this is if you only picked tac squad equivalent units with no characters that have 2+ armour. But with the way things have seemed lately, those units are harder to come by. Wyches have started to shine more in other roles (haywires in a venom). Which really sucks becuase they were such nice units to use for combat before. Not that they cant still be used for combat, but just as effectivly. Everything I have read and seen shows 5 with grenades or 15 for tar pit

With the raiders and fleet, i haven't had a problem picking my targets for the wyches such that the agoniser is still useful. sure, they can't tangle w/ termies like they used to, but vs any 3+ save T4 or more target, the agoniser still seems good to me.

maybe not 20 pts good, but good enough.

and w/ 4 attacks on the charge, at I6, i'd be happy to have a 3+ wearing sargent type challenge me. decent chance they'll be dead before they swing. hell, i'd be challenging them just for the chance to remove the leadership buff on the squad