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The FAQ for Seeker Missiles says they fire at BS5 even under effects like shaken/stunned which normally would make them fire snap shots. How much clearer can you get?

Its just like the old Monolith argument. Unless an FAQ specifically tells you something can hit a flyer normally (Which that entry does not. It only fires through stunned/shaken) then it wont work.

To Trasvi. It's not that I want to know the end number, we established that it's 5. I want to know what the path that got them there was.

To VO. Go read page four of this thread. See the part where we quote the FAQ saying "for example"? We've been through this

Knuckle, maybe you should challenge an argument instead of a player. I've read the FAQ and it makes no mention of shooting at flyers. The monolith faq said that power fists and the like worked. That means that power fists, thunder hammers, and chainfists worked. What that did not mean was other things worked. It is the same thing here. Are you stunned/shaken? no. then you fire shots "RESOLVED AT" bs 1 regardless of what your actual "adjusted" or whatever else bs is.

It says in the FAQ that you FIRE AT bs5. The VA, for example, fires at bs8, but if he is shooting at a flyer, his shots are RESOLVED AT bs1 regardless of any other modifiers.

Apologies. I will responds in a few hours when I get to a computer console. In the mean time I will formulate how to do so less cantankerously. No offense was intended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!!! AND I HAVE BEHELD ITS WONDERMENT!!!

So I did the obvious. I called Games Workshop's Customer service line. DERP! He said that in his area, after the markerlight gets the 'Snap Shot' off, they have resolved the Missile at BS 5. However, he was keen to say that his statement is not considered binding. So then he gave me an email address for the Games Workshop FAQ Department, to which we can address the question! Awesome Right!? But he also doesn't guarantee a response from them either. But I'm going to try. PM me if you wish to send them an email request as well and I will provide the address.

So...Mr. Vindicare-Obsession....Heres the deal...Studied up for this on I did. In the Tau faq, It asks the question...

If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, or Stunned, for example.) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5?

It never sites shooting at anything. The question, without the examples which are there to solely give instances of the situation described, is asking about ANYTIME you are reduced to BS 1. So we shoot it at a flyer, we check the FAQ and it asks us "were you reduced to BS1?" To which we say "Yes." And the FAQ tells us to use "BS 5". Cut. Clean. Dried. And it is not 'challenging' you to direct you to an argument already made against an argument you had inadvertently repeated. Because I'm still using an argument to challenge an argument via previous data.

You will need to provide more info on what an 'VA' is and how it has BS 8. Whether it is the models profile, or a special rule you activate. As that determines where in the formula it sits and therefore what wins out. And please check 'Snap shot' again, as it counts your BS as 1 and does not say anything about resolving it at one at a separate time. As for the monolith FAQ, I couldnt find it in the standard Necron FAQ. Is it listed elsewhere? Worth noting by the way is the entry in the Necron FAQ for whip coils. On its fourth page. I'll put it here for those interested: Necron FAQ

Either way you slice it, and I've been trying to come up with a way for it to not work too, there is a rule that can feasibly say it ends on BS 5. I came up with a way and Drunkenspleen came up with a different interpretation. At some point, either 'Exceptions' or 'Multiple Modifiers' comes in and sorts it out in some way or another. I've found my answer, and after reviewing the entire thread one more time, I believe there is enough info, thoughts, and examples, of a multitude of varieties, for people to come up with theire own answers. The past half a page of this has mostly repeated information already presented just shuffled around or twisted.

I think we're all at the point of agreeing to disagree, and going back to playing with our TOY PLASTIC SPACE DUDES! I know I am

Wait a sec, aren't tau vehicles normally BS3-4?

Normally BS 3, Hammerheads automatically have a free 'Targeting Array', all other vehicles may buy one as wargear. 'Targeting Array' provides a +1 modifier. Are you asking how the earlier example started at one? If so the example in question, I was demonstrating how if it "Counts the models BS as 1, it COULD be construed that it replaces its starting value. But I'm all but positive it doesn't do that.

Tau can fire a Seeker Missile at a marked target at BS5, regardless of the target's various modifiers.

Deal with it and shoot down Remoras if you don't like it.

So for the people saying BS5 vs fliers, would that mean that hunter-killer missiles fire at BS3/4 (depending on army)?

IN THE OLD RULES, BEFORE FAQ DIVERTS YOU TO THE NEW CORE RULEBOOK: Yes, a Hunter-Killer missile as listed in the general Space Marine Codex, shows a set modifier of 4. Saying on page103, quote...

A hunter-killer missile is a krak missile with unlimited range that can only be used once per battle. They are fired at Ballistic Skill 4. They are treated as an additional weapon.

The emphasized line above is another example of a 'Set Modifier', which would take you to the 'Exceptions' alteration rules, then follow the 'Multiple Modifiers' rule.

But there's a hitch...........

As the FAQ for Codex Space Marines diverts you to the BRB page 87 however: No. The BRB change to (assuming) all codexes that have them is quote...

A hunter-killer missle is an additional weapon, fired using the vehicle's Ballistic Skill.

Because it now uses the vehicles own base value to start, which then has the set value tacked on for 'Hard to Hit'/'Snap shots' at the end of its calculation, it goes to Ballistic Skill 1. It is not the activation of a 'Special Ability' as the 'Markerlight-Seeker Missile' use is. It is just one more weapon on the vehicle in every way. Normal rules dictate when it is allowed to fire, BS, LOS, everything, I'm sorry. It is what it is. I was really excited for you until I checked the errata.

KnuckleWolf wrote:
To Trasvi. It's not that I want to know the end number, we established that it's 5. I want to know what the path that got them there was.

The path is that the seeker missiles are drone-guided semi-intelligent missiles firing at a target with a missile lock and are solely controlled by markerlights. Previous iterations of the rules have seekers being able to fire when the vehicle is unable to fire anything (shaken, stunned, moved too fast) which shows they are not intended to follow normal restrictions. They are a special rule in and of themselves so it might be pointless trying to find a 'path' in the core rulebook that leads to this situation.

Exactly Trasvi. But I'm not talking about the fluff for them either, because that is partly open to interpretation. I want to know what the rule logic path was, if there was one at all. It could very well have been GW saying, "Well, there actually isn't a way this worked. Whoops. It's supposed to do this though, so use this FAQ errata and move on." Which is what you call 'Rules as Intended' being made official. As you point out and I support the specific theory (now I do anyway, kind'of) that it is 'Activation of a Special Rule', it would be just that: 'Special rule' and I could move on.

In total just in this thread, there are three ways it happened. Two backed up by rules that go through different routes that Drunkenspleen and I presented. And a third which is the "GW says we of just do this". There is still the possibility of others.

I want to know from their own words why it ended up this way. Not any of our assumptions as to why.

(edited)

Happyjew wrote:
So for the people saying BS5 vs fliers, would that mean that hunter-killer missiles fire at BS3/4 (depending on army)?

Hunter-Killers do not have a set modifier anymore.
They are in no way, shape or form comparable.

Seeker missiles can only be fired by using a marker light correct?

Units in the tau army can use the marker light to fire the seeker missile independent of what the tank that has them is doing correct?

The FAQ states that firing a seeker missile from a tank that is shaken stunned will use BS5 not the BS of the S/S tank correct?

So the FAQ answered the question of can effects on the tank effect the BS of the seeker missile. However seeker missiles are fired independently of what the tank is doing buy another unit that get to use a BS5. No where does flyers come into that equation unless your shooting a flyer, then it gets reduced to a snap shot.

An other good example is the SM signum on the a devastator Sargent, who gets to cause one dev to fire at a BS5. bit as is the case of the seeker missile there is nothing that suggests it can not be further modified by what your shooting at.

Azrell wrote:
Seeker missiles can only be fired by using a marker light correct?

True. Activation of 'Markerlight-Seeker missile' use "Allow[s] avehicle to fire a single seeker missile tat the marked target."(Tau Codex, p29) It does this giving you a 'Set Modifier' of 5 for Ballistic Skill.

Units in the tau army can use the marker light to fire the seeker missile independent of what the tank that has them is doing correct?

True and false. The vehicle that has it is the firing model. As it is activation of a special rule with many super-cedents, it is allowed to ignore: Must fire at the same unit with all weapons, because it says the shot is fired at the marked unit only. And it may fire even if the vehicle can't fire a weapon, because the special rule says it fires. (the last part there is weird but true)

The FAQ states that firing a seeker missile from a tank that is shaken stunned will use BS5 not the BS of the S/S tank correct?

True but incomplete. The FAQ states you will use BS 5 anytime you are reduced to Ballistic Skill 1. It only uses 'Shaken' and 'Stunned' as instances of when that could happen. It does not in anyway limit you to these two times only. If it did they wouldn't be "examples" anymore, they would be the question, which would necessitate a FAQ response to each instance of a time you are reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 and a independent answer for each.

So the FAQ answered the question of can effects on the tank effect the BS of the seeker missile. However seeker missiles are fired independently of what the tank is doing buy another unit that get to use a BS5. No where does flyers come into that equation unless your shooting a flyer, then it gets reduced to a snap shot.

[Entire line is negated by the explanations above. Seeker missiles are not fired 'independently', nor by a unit other then the tank, and flyers did come into the equation as that is an example of a "time you would be reduced to Snap Shot."]

An other good example is the SM signum on the a devastator Sargent, who gets to cause one dev to fire at a BS5. bit as is the case of the seeker missile there is nothing that suggests it can not be further modified by what your shooting at.

First part is true, second part is false. The Signum can modify a models Ballistic Skill with the 'Set Modifier' of 5, this will happen as the rule states while you ar determining what is shooting at what, because it must be selected "in lieu of making a shooting attack of his own"(Space Marine Codex, p100). Then the game will have TWO set modifiers to work out on that model if your shooting at a flyer. A BS 1 which activated when you declared your target, and a BS 5 which happened when you selected weapons to fire. As the active player, since these effects are checked at the same time, Following the 'Exceptions' rule you must arrange the order that they will resolve. The last one to resolve will lock the stat. So you start at BS 4 for the marines usual skill, choose to have it set to BS 1, and finally choose to have it set to BS 5. Then fire at 5.

Breaking news. Signums cannot boost a model that is firing a Snap Shot per the new FAQs.

We now return to your regularly scheduled argument.

FAQ settled this for the markerlights as well. Unfortunate but at least its finally resolved.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
FAQ settled this for the markerlights as well. Unfortunate but at least its finally resolved.

Only for adding to the BS1. It did not address using it for firing a seeker missile at a flier.

Huh, how about that, there's a passage I missed. But it refers to Markerlights in general. Tau FAQ refers to specifically the 'Markerlight-Seeker Missile' use. Following the reasoning that, if I remember right HappyJew pointed out himself, the more specific case wins.

Further: As the Tau FAQ is errata to Tau codex, and Core book FAQ is errata to the Core book, the Tau FAQ still trumps over Core FAQ. I'm sorry. The Tau codex wins through again thanks to two points of specificity.

As the Marine codex FAQ directs you back to Core, which then directs you to Core FAQ, unless there is another instance in the Marine FAQ again to override on a deeper specificity, it ends in the Core FAQ. Which tells me (much appologies) that I'm wrong and signum gets trumped by Snap Shot. Can you immagine how awesome it would be if Hunter-Killers and Signums let you still fire at Fliers? Ironclad Dreads would be insane!

Sadly megatrons2nd, (awesome name bro.) the FAQ in question does not refer to 'adding' specificaly, but to 'modifiers' which does entail plus, minus, multiply, divide, and set.

Main Rule Book FAQ Page 2:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau markerlights,
Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Mohoc wrote:
Main Rule Book FAQ Page 2:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau markerlights,
Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

The argument being made is that BS isn't modified by the marker light, but rather that a seeker missile always resolves at BS5 regardless or whether its snap shot. Its not about +1, its about (set 5).

New FAQ fails to quell that argument in either way.

So setting the BS does not modify it?

Signums and Telion's Voice of Experience would disagree.

Hey, I'm of the opinion that it can't hit fliers except by snap fire, but the counterpoints being made aren't hitting the mark

Happyjew wrote:
So setting the BS does not modify it?

Signums and Telion's Voice of Experience would disagree.

What would it be modifying? The Seeker missile has no BS of it's own, and can not be fired buy the vehicle itself. It must use the markerlight hit to make an attack, and the markerlight hit has the rule that it uses an assumed BS of 5.

Just like "treat as saved" is not a save, an "assumed BS of 5" is not BS5. There is no modification at all, it is however creating an effect like a BS5.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?346750-A-Few-6th-Ed-Questions-Answered-At-The-GW-Design-Studio-Open-Day that's what swayed me BTW... gw design team specifically said no on visit day

So gw design team said no on visit day, yet failed to put it in the faq? I call shenanigans on this... the rest is common knowledge

Someone else said something about a rule being put in the FAQ differently than what was said on visit day. Sadly I can not point you to the rule, nor the exact post that I read this.

Zegz wrote:
So gw design team said no on visit day, yet failed to put it in the faq? I call shenanigans on this... the rest is common knowledge

Yeah you're right... That GW would make an oversight in one of their product lines is both historically unprecedented and obviously foolish on the part of anyone who suggests it... I apologize for that.

From the rulebook

"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

From the rulebook FAQ

Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures.

Q: How do , and – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming and ? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

From the Tau FAQ

Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.[/u]

Seems as if they've removed the missiles ability to ever be fired as a snap shot. And even if for some reason you were allowed to snap fire a smart missile as per the entry in the tau FAQ, they made it quite clear that only snap shots can hit zooming flyers.

But who cares? Seems the latest round of FAQ is about making some vehicles very survivable (Tau get huge cover with their heavy front armor vehicles now)...