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So a Dev squad has a sergeant with a Signum.. The squad shoots at a flier. Could he give +1 BS to one of the marines such that the BS resolves to 2, or would it still be 1?

Thanks,
Worms

P.S. Sorry if this has been hashed 90 times. :p

It would still be BS 1 since you add first (4+1=5) Then apply set modifiers (Snap fire is BS 1).

BS 1, due to set values being applied last.

actually, the signum is also a set modifier, at least in the BA codex. The sergant does not shoot to change the BS of the firer to 5 for the remainder of the shooting phase.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
actually, the signum is also a set modifier, at least in the BA codex. The sergant does not shoot to change the BS of the firer to 5 for the remainder of the shooting phase.

Same with the SM codex.

One model is BS 5, this is done before shooting with the model. When you declare the target, you check for skyfire, if you don't have it, BS 1.

It's a matter of timing for the set values, as juraigamer said, the Signum sets the BS to 5 at the beginning of Shooting, before any shots are declared for that unit. That's set value #1 taken care of, but then you declare that the unit is firing at a Zooming Flyer, set modifier #2 kicks in and drops the BS of the unit to 1.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
It's a matter of timing for the set values, as juraigamer said, the Signum sets the BS to 5 at the beginning of Shooting, before any shots are declared for that unit. That's set value #1 taken care of, but then you declare that the unit is firing at a Zooming Flyer, set modifier #2 kicks in and drops the BS of the unit to 1.

You have the correct idea, but the incorrect function.

Signum sets the models BS to 5, this comes after all Multipliers and additions/subtractions.

Snapshot then sets the shot at BS1.

This is not a situation of rules clashing because the model's statistics are still BS5 as set by the signum, it is just that the shot is resolved at BS1; so it is the shot being "re-set" not the Model.

The Same goes for unwieldy and Pile-in moves(Possibly with other abilities); You swing your unwieldy weapon at I1; but you Pile in at your base(or altered) Initiative step(unwieldy makes attacks with the weapon at I1, Pile in happens at model's Initiative)

The way my group has ruled this in the past is based on the wording used in snap shot. The shot "Is counted as being." just like when you take a space marine and count him as telion even though it isn't the telion model he counts as him for the game. The true stat including its modifiers do not change but the shot counts as BS 1 regardless of what its actual value. This is not a set situation as the score is not set.

At least that is how we see it until FAQs tell us otherwise.

Red

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Same goes for unwieldy and Pile-in moves(Possibly with other abilities); You swing your unwieldy weapon at I1; but you Pile in at your base(or altered) Initiative step(unwieldy makes attacks with the weapon at I1, Pile in happens at model's Initiative)

That is not true, as the BRB equates piling in with when the model makes his attacks. (If you were to pile in at base init and attack at modified initiative then GK's with halberds would attack at I6, but Pile in at I4...)

So a marine with a unwieldy weapon piles in and attacks at I1, and a GK with Halberd piles in and attacks, usually, at I6

Page seven, Codex/Signum wins in this debate gentlemen. One model gets BS5 to pen the Flyer, the rest of the unit will be resolved with BS1.

Xzerios wrote:
Page seven, Codex/Signum wins in this debate gentlemen. One model gets BS5 to pen the Flyer, the rest of the unit will be resolved with BS1.

Page 7 applies to conflicts between rules.
There are already rules in place to sort modifies, set modifiers and more than one set modifier.

The Page 7 ruling has been incorrectly thrown around FAR to much in too many threads.

The Wargear Signum sets the BS to a chosen model to five. Snap Shots sets a models BS to one.
Thats a pretty definitive definition of conflict of rules. Again, see page seven as one of these modifiers comes from a Codex.

I gotta say BS1, as it's to the order of application.

If one of the armies Signum only adds to the BS, sure. Snap Shots wins. In the case of the Blood Angels and Space Marines versions, they win. You only check these values when you need to Roll to Hit. Since both are Set Modifier Values (again, only in the case of the Blood Angels and Space Marines), these two Codex' trump Snap Shots rule.

 Xzerios wrote:
The Wargear Signum sets the BS to a chosen model to five. Snap Shots sets a models BS to one.
Thats a pretty definitive definition of conflict of rules. Again, see page seven as one of these modifiers comes from a Codex.

As mentioned before, there exists a rule for dealing with 2 set stat modifiers. No conflict.

To reset the model to BS1 breaks the rule for Signum. Again, when you attempt to apply Snap Shots BS1 Set Modifier Value, it comes into conflict with the Codex' Set Modifier Value of 5.

If you can show me where this rule is that allows you to trump a codex or allows us to apply Set Modifier Values in an order, Im game to see it.

A set modifier is a set modifier.
Just because one comes from a Codex doesn't mean you can ignore the rules for dealing with two set modifiers. This isn't a conflicting rule as a rule exists for this very situation.

Wheres your multiple Set Modifier Value rule at? Page sir, I need the info. :3

 Xzerios wrote:
Wheres your multiple Set Modifier Value rule at? Page sir, I need the info. :3

I believe the ruling for two set modifiers comes from the Tyranid FAQ (last page, first question):

As a 'set value modifier' the lash whip is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of the turn.

Tell me how that works within the BRB? This rule is not in there. Its coming from another Codex' FaQ and is not basis for -ALL- Set Modifier Values. Just that one as its specific to the Lash Whip itself.

If we are going to go down that road, I implore folks to see the Whip Coils FaQ for the Necrons then. Id tell us to follow its logic instead, but again, this is a dispute with the BRB and a Codex' wargear rules; Not Lash whip vs Signums.

As the others here have pointed out, the flyer rule 'hard to hit' does not change a model's ballistic skill... only the one shot taken at the flyer, is resolved at that BS. Not necessarily that of the model.

Furthermore, in strong bold language, on pg 81, it states that shots must be resolved at that BS. In other words, that's the final state of the ballistic skill you use, after any modifiers to the model occur, anything that adds or subtracts ballistic skill, or and other conceivable thing could happen.

Only snap shots can fire at fliers. Nothing else. There is nothing in the rules for signum to contradict that. It only adds one to a model's bs for the rest of the turn. If there was some rules conflict, the codex would supercede, but there isn't.

 Xzerios wrote:
To reset the model to BS1 breaks the rule for Signum. Again, when you attempt to apply Snap Shots BS1 Set Modifier Value, it comes into conflict with the Codex' Set Modifier Value of 5.

If you can show me where this rule is that allows you to trump a codex or allows us to apply Set Modifier Values in an order, Im game to see it.

It's a matter of specificity.

The signum alters your BS for that shooting phase. This applies to all of your shooting.
Snapshot alters your BS specifically for snap shots. This applies only to certain shooting attacks.

The more specific rule wins. The model is BS 5 for the phase, but if it makes a snap shot, it counts as BS1 for that shot.

 insaniak wrote:

 Xzerios wrote:
To reset the model to BS1 breaks the rule for Signum. Again, when you attempt to apply Snap Shots BS1 Set Modifier Value, it comes into conflict with the Codex' Set Modifier Value of 5.

If you can show me where this rule is that allows you to trump a codex or allows us to apply Set Modifier Values in an order, Im game to see it.

It's a matter of specificity.

The signum alters your BS for that shooting phase. This applies to all of your shooting.
Snapshot alters your BS specifically for snap shots. This applies only to certain shooting attacks.

The more specific rule wins. The model is BS 5 for the phase, but if it makes a snap shot, it counts as BS1 for that shot.

You are more than likely right, and I will not disagree with you. My issue is the fact that in a game meant to be played in 2-2.5 hour blocks, you are forced to dissect word usage to this level. It is not just this rules debate, but so many others. 5th had these debates, but it seems 6th has had so many more that I am actually done with the hobby for a while.

I don't think you should have a Masters in English just to fully understand the rules.

jbunny wrote:
You are more than likely right, and I will not disagree with you. My issue is the fact that in a game meant to be played in 2-2.5 hour blocks, you are forced to dissect word usage to this level.

It's not exactly rocket science. 'More specific trumps general' is a basic principle of pretty much every game ever written with rules more complicated than Snap.

You don't need a degree. You just need to look at which rule applies more specifically to the situation at hand.

Even simpler than that is the fact that a Signum doesn't give the model the Skyfire rule. Your ending BS is irrelevant as all shots that do not have Skyfire are resolved at BS1. Its not that complicated. Your BS could be 1200 and you would STILL only hit a flyer on a 6.

Now the interesting part of this is would someone with a BS of 6+ still get their re-roll to hit since Hard to Hit doesn't modify your BS it just says the hit is resolved at BS1?

Codex > BRB. Its right at the bottom of page seven. This piece of wargear comes from a Codex and its a Codex telling you to set your BS to five. At this point, nothing trumps this from the BRB as within its own rules does it give the Codex precedence in these situations.

Agreed...page 81 clearly states that if you do not have sky fire you snap...so the order would be you use your signum and your bs goes to 5..you target the flyer and check for skyfire...you fail as you don't have skyfire and so you snap shot at it...with a BS of 1....I am a blood angels player and I see it ...its not complicated it has nothing to do with codex or the modifier order...its just simple as you don't have skyfire so you snap

 Xzerios wrote:
Codex > BRB. Its right at the bottom of page seven. This piece of wargear comes from a Codex and its a Codex telling you to set your BS to five. At this point, nothing trumps this from the BRB as within its own rules does it give the Codex precedence in these situations.

Repeating yourself does not make your argument valid. Your BS is 5, it is still 5, it will be 5 for the rest of the shooting phase. But, because you do not have the Skyfire rule you cannot hit a Flyer with anything less than a 6.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

 Xzerios wrote:
Codex > BRB. Its right at the bottom of page seven. This piece of wargear comes from a Codex and its a Codex telling you to set your BS to five. At this point, nothing trumps this from the BRB as within its own rules does it give the Codex precedence in these situations.

Repeating yourself does not make your argument valid. Your BS is 5, it is still 5, it will be 5 for the rest of the shooting phase. But, because you do not have the Skyfire rule you cannot hit a Flyer with anything less than a 6.

To be clear, what you are insisting isn't exactly RAW either, Hard to Hit combined with Snap Shots doesn't actually say to resolve the shots at BS1, or that you can never hit with anything less than a 6, the net result of the combined rules is as follows:

"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer must count the firing model's Ballistic Skill as 1 for the purpose of those shots."

It's possible, though rare, for a special rule to substitute a Ballistic Skill to be used in place of the 1 the model is counted as having.

That being said, I do tend towards agreeing that the Signum is overridden in this case, I simply bring it up for the sake of trying to curb the epidemic of people misquoting the Hard to Hit and Snap Shot rules.