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Everyone I see keeps going on and on about how good a Necron flying circus is. What am I missing, the Doom Scythe is pretty good imo, but the Night Scythe seems to be only useful as a deployment method for Immortals and Warriors. What makes it so good? Not the gun, its only a 4 shot strength 7 twinlinked gun. What's so special about it?

Its cargo goes back into reserve when it is shot down and does not die like all other flyer transports. Not to mention that it is also the cheapest flyer in 40k. I would also say that 4 twin linked 7 shots that can then multiply and arc to different targets is amazing...

Maybe that it is a transport that is 6s to hit, after deploying its cargo and it has a S7 gun that is not only twin-linked but Tesla and Arcing as well, which for its cost makes it a very good deal.

TL Tesla Destructors are pretty amazing. Unlike other 4 shot TL heavy weapon systems (assault cannon razors, rifleman dreads), which average, 3-4 hits per turn, thanks to the Tesla rule, you're averaging 5-6 hit per turn. Which is pretty gross at S7. That's a lot of dakka. Even before you factor in occasionally getting bonus hits on additional nearby units.

 Mannahnin wrote:
TL Tesla Destructors are pretty amazing. Unlike other 4 shot TL heavy weapon systems (assault cannon razors, rifleman dreads), which average, 3-4 hits per turn, thanks to the Tesla rule, you're averaging 5-6 hit per turn. Which is pretty gross at S7. That's a lot of dakka. Even before you factor in occasionally getting bonus hits on additional nearby units.

This is what I don't get. you average 5.55555 hits and 1.85185 wounds vs meq, .92593 vs teq, and 2.77778 vs geq. While decent I can't imagine how an army of this is enough to win. It's barely any damage to say a 2k army... Say you have 6 Night Scythes, against a standard marine army, you are hitting 12 standard models per turn of shooting. come in on turn two, every 2 turns should be off the table, so you shoot turns 2, 3, 5, maybe 6. so between 36 and 48 meq kills per game assuming none get shot down, that just doesn't seem good enough to win imo...

Am I wrong somewhere?

I have to agree with the OP. Unless I'm missing something big, I do not see how the Necron Flying Circus really wins. Sure it can be harder to kill, but it just doesn't seem to be kill-y enough in its own right. Yes I watched this, but I still fail to see how it is wiping the floor. Please post what we are missing here.

the weasel king wrote:This is what I don't get. you average 5.55555 hits and 1.85185 wounds vs meq, .92593 vs teq, and 2.77778 vs geq.

Yes, and now run what that weapon will do to a chimera, rhino or razorback.

You've got a guard hydra, except it can shoot at ground targets, with more shots. And it is a transport, whose cargo can't be killed off right away. And it moves really fast, making it a good transport. And it's a flier, so it ignores terrain and can only be hit on 6's by most guns, and it can even evade for a cover save anywhere on the board.

If you're having a hard time seeing why this is good, I'd suggest playing a couple of other armies for awhile. It will make you yearn for something as "bad" as a night scythe. Really, they're the new holofield falcons...

It seems your focussed on 'killy' and that is only part of the equation infact in 6th it the least important as only one mission is kill point based. Objectives is where it's at and this is where the night sycthe shines 36" move and deploy troops means you can contest claim any objective on the table (if your going second this can win you games with little fear of reprisal tournies even more so as time limits means you have a better understanding of when it will be the definative last turn).

Another point is the ability to approach from unpredictable directions allowing you to shoot the models you want to hit.

 The Strange Dude wrote:
It seems your focussed on 'killy' and that is only part of the equation infact in 6th it the least important as only one mission is kill point based. Objectives is where it's at and this is where the night sycthe shines 36" move and deploy troops means you can contest claim any objective on the table (if your going second this can win you games with little fear of reprisal tournies even more so as time limits means you have a better understanding of when it will be the definative last turn).

Another point is the ability to approach from unpredictable directions allowing you to shoot the models you want to hit.

The problem with this is yes, it is an objective based game, but you need enough firepower to keep your opponent off of the objectives. I don't feel Night Scythe spam is the best way to do this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

the weasel king wrote:This is what I don't get. you average 5.55555 hits and 1.85185 wounds vs meq, .92593 vs teq, and 2.77778 vs geq.

If you're having a hard time seeing why this is good, I'd suggest playing a couple of other armies for awhile. It will make you yearn for something as "bad" as a night scythe. Really, they're the new holofield falcons...

You mean like my tau, tyranids, and eldar? All of which (except eldar which I haven't played in 6th yet) I can make more efficient lists than Night Scythe spam.

Obviously their main use isn't trying to table a SM player using large numbers of dudes. If you're trying to blast fifty space marines off the table you're using them wrong.

NS kill the heck out of light-medium vehicles (AV12 or less), other flyers, and force substantial numbers of saves on squads, weakening them or finishing them off in conjunction with other units, like Wraiths. They do these things while safely transporting scoring units just about anywhere on the table, and safeguarding those scoring units even if the opponent does manage to shoot the NS down.

They also synergize well with Doom Scythes, which punish your opponent for bunching up, while NS have the maneuverability to gain superior concentration of force and kill isolated units easily if/when your opponent spreads out.

It's a really solid transport for your midrange firepower troop units and it contributes quite a bit of hp stripping and save rolling. It also gets your scoring units around really well for something of a meq army.

It also adds to your air protection and forces your opponent to bring more stuff that is good at killing fliers as opposed to ID on a wraith or wiping out your immortal units Without saves or rp.

Let me tell you, it's pretty comparable to hg in what it's shooting and hit taking abilities are and both get points for contributing to saturation but 100 points of flying tesla destructor works a little bit harder for you than 100 points of impaler in most circumstances. Its also really good at contributing to the work of its contents, or enabling it. Meaning both gauss troops with crypteks and tesla destructors are sort of equally good at firing at most targets (besides high av and sometimes MCs) and can be combined or staggered to enable the other quite well.

They have a lot of firepower to be sure, but honestly my problem with them is their lack of ability to remain on the table, being super-sonic and thus unable to hover.

Their firepower is impressive for the points that you pay... but you won't get access to any of it until turn 2 at the earliest. You'll have a really decent shooting phase turn 2, and likely a decent one on turn 3, but turn 4 with that min 18" move you're gonna either be flying off the table, or having to settle for far less than prime targets, as people with mobile armies will be able to maneuver out of your firing arcs.

Turn 5 you can show back up, and there might not even be a turn 6. My problem with it is that as the planes lack hover mode, they can't stick around to turn up the heat if they really need to.

Is it scary? Certainly. Is it overpowered? Possibly against some lists. However, this is a list that will get less and less powerful with each new book that releases for 6th, as that will increase anti-flyer options more and more.

Doom and Night Scythes are great for several reasons. Back in 5th the 2 biggest drawbacks of them was their survivability and their range since they could only move 12" and fire their guns. Even so it was considered a great buy. Both of these have been dealt with nicely in 6th which makes them even more incredible. And lets not forget some of the changes to 6th which gets you a lot more mileage out of them:

The Tesla Destructor is a great weapon. It received a buff in 6th now that glances can actually do something of significance to vehicles...Tesla Destructors generate a lot of glances.

Being unable to be assaulted and hit on 6's with (most) shooting means late game chances are you will still have a few Scythes on the table. Use their insane speed to get to objectives right at the last minute. You can actually utilize terrain and Scythe placement to block assaults. While the base is effectively ignored enemy models still can't come within an inch. You can also stagger when each Scythe comes in so you will always be able to position your "blockers" to counter enemy movement.

Now a full Scythe list does breed in some certain weaknesses. The fact you lack boots on the ground does hurt the list, as does the fact you can't actually touch AV14 with them. But if you support them properly with the correct elements and in the correct numbers (I prefer Wraiths and Warriors) you can build a really good all-comers that hits far above it's own weight. The fact that Scythes are dedicated transports, great at what they do and cheap to boot makes it a really spammable option.

The unit;

Its an amazing transport. Other transports move 6" before their cargo disembarks, Night Scythes move 36".
They have a quality gun too.

The spam army;

Meh. Spamming the latest hotness is just the done thing. It will have a few months in the sun then fade away.

It will have a few months in the sun then fade away.

In fact, we will see more and more air defense.

Then you can keep the NS for apoc battles or sell them at ebay.

I think 2 is the golden number with Scythes. It doesn't have to be spam-it-and-auto-win to be a good unit. It dumps on most transports in the game so be tactically aware and use it wisely

 Davylove21 wrote:
I think 2 is the golden number with Scythes. It doesn't have to be spam-it-and-auto-win to be a good unit. It dumps on most transports in the game so be tactically aware and use it wisely

And how many Doom Scythes? Would 1 Doom Scythe and 2 Annihilation Barges be the best HS choices?

I have a single Scythe kti and am plannign n keepign it at that for now.

it is really handy to use form droppign a scorign squad on an objective, or dropping a kill squad behind that unit you want to kill.

i woudln't spam it as it limits your options and robs you of a lot of other nice uits you coudl use instead.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Davylove21 wrote:
I think 2 is the golden number with Scythes. It doesn't have to be spam-it-and-auto-win to be a good unit. It dumps on most transports in the game so be tactically aware and use it wisely

And how many Doom Scythes? Would 1 Doom Scythe and 2 Annihilation Barges be the best HS choices?

For me that depends on whether or not you run a stalker. With that potential twin-linking on a tough unit you want as much dakka on the table as possible - you might only get one round of it so three AB's could be the way there. If you need psychic defense you may well want some Spyders, which are a nice and cheap MC anyway.

If you run Imotekh and benefit from early NF, Doom Scythes aren't missed so much in the early rounds.

 Davylove21 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Davylove21 wrote:
I think 2 is the golden number with Scythes. It doesn't have to be spam-it-and-auto-win to be a good unit. It dumps on most transports in the game so be tactically aware and use it wisely

And how many Doom Scythes? Would 1 Doom Scythe and 2 Annihilation Barges be the best HS choices?

For me that depends on whether or not you run a stalker. With that potential twin-linking on a tough unit you want as much dakka on the table as possible - you might only get one round of it so three AB's could be the way there. If you need psychic defense you may well want some Spyders, which are a nice and cheap MC anyway.

If you run Imotekh and benefit from early NF, Doom Scythes aren't missed so much in the early rounds.

But if you look at the battle reports of jy2, say here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/466541.page, then I would be inclined to run 2 Doom Scythes instead of one.

 wuestenfux wrote:

It will have a few months in the sun then fade away.

In fact, we will see more and more air defense.

Then you can keep the NS for apoc battles or sell them at ebay.

If you spam night scythes now to get maximum flyers you will probably end up selling some, but if you just use a few for actually transporting units they will be useful for a long time to come.
This is because even if your oponent has 10 units with skyfire+inteceptor they cant stop the night scythe from deploying a unit deep into the board so it wont matter too much if future codexes have better AA.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

It will have a few months in the sun then fade away.

In fact, we will see more and more air defense.

Then you can keep the NS for apoc battles or sell them at ebay.

If you spam night scythes now to get maximum flyers you will probably end up selling some, but if you just use a few for actually transporting units they will be useful for a long time to come.
This is because even if your oponent has 10 units with skyfire+inteceptor they cant stop the night scythe from deploying a unit deep into the board so it wont matter too much if future codexes have better AA.

True.

To increase the variety, two Night Scythes (and one Doom Scythe) should be enough. As said, the transported units will be rather safe even when a NS gets destroyed.

I'm still not sold on the viability of the Doomscythe.

Admittedly i've not had chance to use it yet...

But 175 points for a S10 Ap1 line of death that can only fire....maybe 2 or 3 times per game (movement restrictions mean you will have to take it off the table at some point or spend 2 turns turning it around).

i will have to try it in my next game but personally i think the nightscythe is the more versatiel and useful of the 2 variants.

Alot of people are complaing that the vehicles in a spammed list of NS'd aren't killy enough. What about the added number of shots from the units inside each of these transports? So what if they are only going to be able to shoot maybe turn 2,3,5 and/or 6 too. What about the potential to drop guass carrying warriors next to higher AV models that just need 6's to glance to death. Necrons aren't meant to be the next leaf blower, and spam does good against only so many armies before you run into your paper for your rock, or your scissors for your paper. If you bring a well rounded Necron list and actually know how to use your army versus one unit in your codex, you can be a very strong contender for winning tournaments, and giving everyone else a bad day.

IMO spam is never the answer. You never need more than 2 of anything expect for maybe your troop choices (depending on options available for them).

CrimsonKing wrote:
Alot of people are complaing that the vehicles in a spammed list of NS'd aren't killy enough. What about the added number of shots from the units inside each of these transports? So what if they are only going to be able to shoot maybe turn 2,3,5 and/or 6 too. What about the potential to drop guass carrying warriors next to higher AV models that just need 6's to glance to death. Necrons aren't meant to be the next leaf blower, and spam does good against only so many armies before you run into your paper for your rock, or your scissors for your paper. If you bring a well rounded Necron list and actually know how to use your army versus one unit in your codex, you can be a very strong contender for winning tournaments, and giving everyone else a bad day.

IMO spam is never the answer. You never need more than 2 of anything expect for maybe your troop choices (depending on options available for them).

Perhaps you never "need" more than two of anything, but when you build a highly optimized list, you generally end up with multiples of your most efficient units. Long fangs are an excellent of example of this.

NS are not amazing at killing infantry. They will however wreck transports, other fliers, anything with av10/av11 side armor, quad guns. In short it's good at killing what is currently the best aa in the game.

The big problem with them is their ability to drop troops with heavy short ranged firepower where they need to be.

The biggest problem is after ns kills the dedicated aa units it will hang around until turn 5 and then start beaming scoring/contesting units down.

It won't be as competitive after eldar/tau/nids/sw/bt/da/csm get their flying units, but the basic premise of surgical removal of aa+ turn 5 objective grabs will still work as long as crons bring more fliers to the game, and none of the objectives end up being a skyfire nexus.

They're also very good at cornering isolated units where the sheer number of armor saves they (and their contents) force quickly becomes overwhelming.

I also dread all scythe lists now, or at least ones that have no ground position or fallback plan. lots of fnp units or fnp units with a good armor save on your objectives can be a bother for them, and if the enemy has access to hordes or fast moving troops they can take advantage of your min-max movement necessities to control where you can be just by denying you room for all your craft.

One idea is to support your flyers with wraiths and bargelords, they soak up anti flyer firepower like nobody's business and give you a strong couple of arms to keep any shady business in check and disrupt strong counter units.

As a cron player i shall elaborate for ya. I personally do not think spaming them is a great idea, at that point you are a one trick pony. However if you weigh the options they are seriously win-win! Anni barge with same TL Tesla destructor is 90 points, carries no one, and is easily wrecked by CC... Night Scythe 100 points will require sky fire or 6's to bring it down, and once/if you manage on board crons deep strike. Potentially gets the cargo where you want it regardless. In addition this thing carries practically anything on the list! I only have one and wont leave home without it! Higher point games leaves me wanting at least one more, maybe two.

the weasel king wrote:so between 36 and 48 meq kills per game assuming none get shot down, that just doesn't seem good enough to win imo...

Am I wrong somewhere?

Exactly how is that not enough to win? I can't remember the last time I saw more than that many MEQs on the table, not to mention you are ignoring the fact that there is more in the army also.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

This is because even if your oponent has 10 units with skyfire+inteceptor they cant stop the night scythe from deploying a unit deep into the board

Actually, that is exactly what Interceptor does.

OP, you're missing nothing. Nightscythes are reasonable, but nothing special. It's just in the zeitgeist right now and it wasn't before, so people are in an uproar.