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i ride a $1000 Kelly Slater limited edition model surfboard, with carbon fiber and every other modern design element, which i could accidentaly snap on any wave...
seems pretty insane, but it's worth every penny when i'm on a wave...

the price of a miniature has never been something i consider...
the only question is how bad do i want it...
that said, i still love a bargain or a discount (which is why i paid $350 for my $1000 surf board, and am typing this on an iPad that Nike gave me as a gift)...
paying full retail just feels wrong somehow...

cheers
jah

I suppose taking that as an example, it comes down to the perceived value of something.

The example given in the OP does seem a little steep, perhaps it might be a bit more acceptable if you are new coming into wargaming, or if you are unaware of some other games. That being said, a friend of mine went into a GW to buy a present for a mate, and told me he had a hard time stopping himself saying "you've got to be effing kidding me" when he was shown how much a LoTR troll cost.

So, I guess there will come a time when more customers than not will say "erm.. no, that price is not conscionable", perhaps that has already happened to people in Aus. I believe it was Howard Treesong said previously that it was the ultimate objective of GW to sell a single box of tactical marines for 5 million dollars

Please also remember... there is a large portion of customers that buy *MODELS* not *ARMIES*. There are people who collect models for the sheer joy of painting models they like to look at or include into 'RPG' gaming where the models are used for no purpose but visual representation.

It has even been said in the past that 2/3rds of GWs customers never play the game and buy models for the sake of collecting models.

I can say I have bought many Privateer Press models and never intend to play that game or build an army. To tell me Privateer Press is 'cheaper' because I need 25 models than 120 is a steaming pile as the cool turtleman figure which I want to paint doesn't become 'CHEAPER' simply because if I play the game I would only need 24 of them.

As someone who buys models to paint as one-off models and be cool 'shelf eyecandy' or use in generic RPG games, GW's models are right in the middle of the pack with everyone else. I buy models which are way more expensive simply due to production run issues and I buy ones cheaper because sometimes someone makes an amazingly good figure that ends up being super cheap.

No one is forcing anyone to pay 2500pt warhammer games... And I been seeing point creep for PP games now that they have had people playing a while. I see 100+ points of PP armies being more common and as more people have them, more people want to play them and more people then become forced to buy 100 points.

Whoa ... are you saying people actually play specialist games? Where can I meet these people? I'd love to play Necromunda, Mordheim, Bloodbowl, and BFG, but I've never seen anyone play them. Hell, I have a BFG fleet that I've never used!

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
Whoa ... are you saying people actually play specialist games? Where can I meet these people? I'd love to play Necromunda, Mordheim, Bloodbowl, and BFG, but I've never seen anyone play them. Hell, I have a BFG fleet that I've never used!

Heh, come to wyoming, people play BB here, cant say so much for any other non RPG or CCG game.

 Pacific wrote:

The example given in the OP does seem a little steep, perhaps it might be a bit more acceptable if you are new coming into wargaming, or if you are unaware of some other games. That being said, a friend of mine went into a GW to buy a present for a mate, and told me he had a hard time stopping himself saying "you've got to be effing kidding me" when he was shown how much a LoTR troll cost.

It seems shocking to a newcomer. But that's how they get you hooked. To take the IG as an example, if I were a newcomer I'd think the infantry squad wasn't bad value. What £20 for 10 models? That's not too bad when you consider how long it takes to paint them (horde give value for money ). But then you get a bit further into the game, and you realise that an infantry squad is naff all points, and doesn't have a single useful special weapon. So you need to spend a few more pounds on special weapons, and get a lot more squads. Before you know it, you have a load of models and have spent a bucket load of money. At that point, spending £60 on a vendetta seems more reasonable.

If you want to play IG never use GW's guardsmen because GW guardsmen are extremely expensive for that type of model.

 notprop wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
You think that's bad? Check how much a pack of three Fell Bats will set you back.

Or 5 Bloodknights.....

Archaon.

One cavalry model.

Go look.

Funny thing is that when GW released their plastic regiments/units the idea was to give bulk figures for a good price. You dropped £10 and got a unit. And that was a great price on them even at the time. Imperial Guard plastics were 20 for £10 when first released and it wasn't just the price, it made buying units for your army very straight forward. Plonk down a note, get a regiment. It's perfect for impulse purchases at a time when the alternative with many armies was to buy a heap of various blisters to get the heavy weapons, unit leader and infantry and end up paying some odd amount like £16.50 and getting 11 figures so one ends up in the spare box. But on the prices specifically, people can talk about 'inflation' all they want, when the exact same castings of the humble Catachan go from 50p to £2 over a period of a decade it's well above. And the product hasn't improved one jot to justify it.


Five elves for £20.50 is crap. Firstly, the price per figure for a very generic miniature is outlandish, and secondly it's useless; you'll need several boxes to make a unit so the final cost is just hideous for what are a group of very samey looking rank and file troops (They probably dare not sell you a unit of 10 or 20 because it slams home just how stupidly expensive the regiment will be). And they do all look the same, not least because in that pic there's only 3 variants offered. That's bs for a modern miniatures company charging these prices. You sell stuff in packs of five, at £4 a head - you make them all different. And I might not be a consumer psychologist, but that extra 50p just serves to draw attention to the fact that you're paying over £20 for 5 figures. Wouldn't £19.99 sound nicer?

 lord_blackfang wrote:


1) There exist GW games where a complete "army" is cheaper than a Warmachine starter set. And you get the rules free to boot.

And no one plays them, becuase no one knows about them. Seriously, I've not seen a game of necromunda, BFG, in a decade. And we only played BB during football season in a basement, and Mordhiem during halloween in a basement.

I've never seen a game played in and FLGS or hobby shops in years if not a decade. Your average customer knows nothing about those games.

 -Loki- wrote:

Archaon.

One cavalry model.

Go look.

AUS: $83

CDN: $57.67

US: $47.65

UK: $45.67

(all in AUS dollars)

So much for GW costing the same as others on a per model basis. I couldn't find a 40mm based fantasy model for anywhere near that price. And Archaon is what? A 10 year old sculpt now?

I guess GW expects mommy to open up her wallet for Timmy without thinking too much about the contents of the kit. "Well Timmy, if you're sure that's what you want for your birthday..."

carmachu wrote:


I've never seen a game played in and FLGS or hobby shops in years if not a decade. Your average customer knows nothing about those games.

The average gamer has never played Warmachine...

 CT GAMER wrote:


I've never seen a game played in and FLGS or hobby shops in years if not a decade. Your average customer knows nothing about those games.

The average gamer has never played Warmachine...

At least that gamer base is growing rather than contracting. Trying to find a 40k game around here is next to impossible compared to finding a Warmachine game. And finding other players of Specialist games is next to impossible. Even the local BFG guys have switched to Firestorm Armada.

I imagine every location is a bit different, but it used to be that GW's games could be found being played with ease. Now you end up paying more money and having a smaller and smaller pool of opponents.

My group went from all 40K to a period of playing only wamrachine for a number of years and now Warmachien is dead in the water and people are playign 40K again and attracting new members.

One's own situation/expeience is just that..

well, personally, i've been collecting GW minis for over 25 years...
box sets used to be a better value, and you could play video games at the corner store for a quarter...
now, box sets are smaller and more expensive, while a good video game at the arcade starts at a dollar...

for the most part, more money gets you less stuff all around...
wages don't seem to have risen as much as the price of damn near EVERYTHING over the last twenty years...
if i got worked up over the way things were a decade ago, i would probably feel like i'm getting ripped off everywhere...
ask your parents how much gas cost on the day you were born, and go look at the price now...

all i can say is that most minis are miles above the old sculpts...
technology has advanced so much, and i'm happy to pay for multi-part options versus the first WFB plastic troops that came out...
they had one pose for each race, and you would end up with unit that was twenty of the same mini, and that was considered revolutionary at the time!!!

if you really really want something, go out and hustle up that dough...
all the time spent whining could be time spent making money...

cheers
jah

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
£20.50 FOR FIVE MODELS....

You realise that's a typical per-mini cost for Infinity or Warmachine or Malifxau or Mercs (mercs is more) or, well, lots of other games?

http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/malifaux/guild-hunters/2176
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=270560
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=10011
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2790

WH models are a lot smaller than those and less detailed.

 CT GAMER wrote:

At least that gamer base is growing rather than contracting. Trying to find a 40k game around here is next to impossible compared to finding a Warmachine game. And finding other players of Specialist games is next to impossible. Even the local BFG guys have switched to Firestorm Armada.

I imagine every location is a bit different, but it used to be that GW's games could be found being played with ease. Now you end up paying more money and having a smaller and smaller pool of opponents.

My group went from all 40K to a period of playing only wamrachine for a number of years and now Warmachien is dead in the water and people are playign 40K again and attracting new members.

One's own situation/expeience is just that..

PErsonal experience - I see people playing Warmachine at my FLGS, but I also see more people playing 40k. Apparently the Warmachine base there was large about a year and a half ago, with two dedicated gaming nights, but it just petered out, which might or might not have had something to do with all the Warmachine players basically being the whole areas population of TFGs.

Having read what SCOTT-S6 said about prices in general, I've thought about this, and for people like me it's actually probably my fault.

I've recently bought FW mk4 Space Marine Armour, It was £20 for 5 without weapons, but I justified it to myself because it was a special Army (PRE-HERESY),

So maybe I shouldn't complain because I have paid this before for FW Stuff. For some reason, I seem to think that FW should be more expensive because it has a smaller customer base and is highly specialist (I don't imagine the that FW stuff outsells GW stuff). So maybe I'm part of the problem in this regard, I have encouraged both FW and GW to keep the prices up, and who ever referenced PT Barnum might have a point.

That said, I bought 3 x Thunderfire Cannon "counts as" from MANTIC for £30 which I think is outstanding value, and will allow me to have a full battery for APOC games and one or two for normal games.

EDIT - The thing I'm most annoyed about is that I have 10 Sword masters of Hoeth in Plastic, and when I compare them with the FINECAST ones I cannot see the difference. So they haven't even re-sculpted them, it just on the surface seems galling.

We've all spent money frivolously, so please don't take my PT Barnum reference as a personal attack. I just started a new historical army that will be all metal when there are plastic options at a lower price.

Forgeworld has always been a truly premium priced product (even if they have had casting issues at times). It's sad now that regular GW prices are often more than Forgeworld items. In the case of the pre-hersy guys, 0.50. cheaper even in the UK.

I didn't realize there are plastic hoeth available. Wow. From the starter box no less.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-IoB-10-Sword-Masters-Hoeth-NEW-/320969787430?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abb4a4826

Despite my somewhat tactless PT Barnum reference, I'm not going to slight someone too seriously for buying a miniature they want and paying a lot for it, but these finecast hoeth miniatures are just GW taking the piss. They have plastics for these!!

PT Barnum quote for Forgeworld? Nope. For finecast miniatures that have a good looking plastic alternative? I think it fits there.

You want to be shell shocked? According to the leaked price list, Grail Knights are going to be released in Finecast for $74.25 US. That's for FIVE knights on PLASTIC horsies.

 mwnciboo wrote:
EDIT - The thing I'm most annoyed about is that I have 10 Sword masters of Hoeth in Plastic, and when I compare them with the FINECAST ones I cannot see the difference. So they haven't even re-sculpted them, it just on the surface seems galling.

I'll agree with you there. £4 each for those models is horrible!

 Surtur wrote:
WH models are a lot smaller than those and less detailed.

I've got Mercs and Cryx models in front of me and that's not true.

Barfolomew wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
First we hear how GW's models are more expensive than the rest, which is quickly proven false, then the Infinity/Warmahordes/etc crowd falls back on "but you need to buy more models to play GW" ignoring all GW's skirmish games, then we remind them of said skirmish games, then they say these games don't count because they aren't supported, then we link them to the model ranges still being sold by GW and the rules free to download from GW's site, then they finally fall back on saying the Necromunda sculpts suck or some such.

I always thought the GW supporters conceded (well it's not as popular) when it is pointed out that the standard GW tournament army is 2x the cost of the standard Privateer Press tournament army.

You can play 40k quite happily at 750pts, 1000pts, etc. GW doesn't support tournaments, and the majority of 40k players don't play in tournaments, so why would we use the 1850/2000pt 'tournament standard' as a benchmark? I think i might have played ONE 2000pt game in the last year. Maybe. The rest of the time it's been 1250 or 1500.

But PP does actively encourage tournament play.

It would be more fair to compare the cost of a GW starter army (1000pts, to play fun beer-and-cake games in your friends' living rooms, as is intended) to a PP tournament army (to play in tournaments, as intended).

 Scott-S6 wrote:

WarOne wrote:People get shell shocked by the start up costs of Warhammer because of the volume of models needed.

Hardly applicable to someone like mwnciboo who's been playing GW games for years.

chromedog wrote:Yes, but you don't need 20 models to make a unit in infinity - 5 models is usually half an "army".

I'm not going to argue with your point that a 40K army is more expensive than a warmachine or infinity army - you need way more models. However £4 per model is pretty average for many mainstream systems.

Personally, I think a bigger complaint with those HE models is why so boring? I know that uniformity is a bonus in WHFB but still... it looks like there's only three different sculpts in there.

Your logic and reasoning can be proven wrong easily, especially since GW themselves do it.

All you have to do is look at the character pricing

Skirmish gaming is where it's at.

Theres no crying about the prices, now. We already knew GW was a beast to begin with, they are just doing what comes naturally to them now.

Appearently,according to thier own word- People still are throwing money at them hand over fist, from what THEY say.

Nevermind on where the money goes after you pay them. (That 60-70 cents or so of every dollar/ pound is going to.. . Mark Wells. Not GW.)


The writing is on the wall when every one of the old school designers left, and moved on to other companies.

I think that the price increase into insanity was a good thing.

Spead the talent around, pushed gaming in general into new directions, and gives gamers more, not less choice.

The old saying - If you don't like it, move on? Yes. You can move on to almost 1000 different games and use these same "Young Turks" figures for same thing.


Go ahead, GW push that price, to what, 50.00? Why not 100.00 for 5 guys. Remember, your buying a... pork.

Thank you sir, may I have another!!!!

As someone who plays Necromunda, Bloodbowl and BFG, I don't think saying 'but GW makes cheap games as well' is legitimate. These games are old, have major balance issues that GW won't even let the fan community address for them, and nobody really knows about them. I bet if you walk into a GW store and ask one of their teenage customers, they would not know at all what BFG was. Heck, make that one of their younger staff members....

As to the 'why play at 2000pts' question: because thats what the tournament player play, and so thats what the rest of the community ends up playing. At the moment, my community (the active gaming community in gaming clubs) for the large part hasn't switched to 6th edition because they haven't finished the 5th edition tournament circuit yet.

I often buy a new snowboard every couple of years that can easily reach £700 per board... This'll often roll with new bindings and even boots - hell, I've changed my boarding jacket and trousers thrice in as many years. I've easily blown a couple of grand on snowboarding... Everything is relative. Yes, GW is expensive and there has been price-creep over the years for the same amount of models in /x/ boxset but y'know, I'm only going to purchase kits that I want. If I'm getting enjoyment out of a model, both painting and playing with, then I consider it money well spent.

I am sure that there are many here whom would baulk at the price of snowboard equipment. In a slight twist of coincidence, these types of threads also appear on winter sport forums.

Not a price complaint per-se just I hate when they take a older rather ugly metal model that should probably definitely be plastic kits anyway and just convert it direct to finecast.

I mean at least update the model, then finecast it. Far as I can tell GW is simply pouring resin into the old metal molds. Then jacking up the price, because it's finecast.

Which to be honest I like less than metal in so many ways. IE I would say it's inferrior to metal, and they charge more for it.

 Eiríkr wrote:
I often buy a new snowboard every couple of years that can easily reach £700 per board... This'll often roll with new bindings and even boots - hell, I've changed my boarding jacket and trousers thrice in as many years. I've easily blown a couple of grand on snowboarding... Everything is relative. Yes, GW is expensive and there has been price-creep over the years for the same amount of models in /x/ boxset but y'know, I'm only going to purchase kits that I want. If I'm getting enjoyment out of a model, both painting and playing with, then I consider it money well spent.

I am sure that there are many here whom would baulk at the price of snowboard equipment. In a slight twist of coincidence, these types of threads also appear on winter sport forums.

I suppose the issue is that, like with any market, the consumer has a choice whether they buy those products or not, or can buy from an alternate producer.

If one type of snowboard is more expensive than another, then the consumer can always choose that other option. So to with wargaming, we have the choice of manufacturers. Or, as you say, specifically in this case a lot of us already have large collections and so can go with just the odd boxset and so relatively it's not that expensive.

Although I have to say it (and sorry for bringing this up constantly!) but it was wonderful being able to get into a couple of new systems recently, get everything I need, and to have some change back from £100 for them. And that included an army for a friend in one case (without saying which system, the clue is in my signature )
If I was trying to get my kid to start playing games, of course I would let him wander around the FLGS and pick what he wanted off the shelf to start an army, but for purely monetary reasons I would hope that he would stick clear of the GW section!

Oh good.

It's THIS thread again.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400016&prodId=prod1160104a


One Finecast model for $50, probably the most expensive HQ within the Space Marines category