OMG - Prices

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**Scott-S6**

mwnciboo wrote:
I always have a problem with the attitude of "If you don't like it, buy something else" or "the hobby is expensive get over yourself". Well I have to say no, on both counts because this acceptance of what is going on is akin to being an easily led sheep.

I would disagree.

There are three options:
1. Decide that the prices are worth it for the entertainment value it brings and keep buying.
2. Decide that it's too expensive and stop buying.
3. Decide that it's too expensive, whine about it online but keep buying anyway.

Option 3 is being a sheep.

**mwnciboo**

Option 3, Passive Aggressive sheep but i'll give you that.

**Elemental**

In the end, GW will use the prices they can get away with, that people reward them for. I see enough people at my club in Leeds who immediately charge down the store to pay for the latest new hot thing, that I can quite believe their strategy works. Even if those same people were earlier carping about how ridiculous the prices are. GW will change their prices when people stop buying their stuff, not before.

One thing I don't quite get is the "model quality" argument, because typical games of Warhammer Fantasy often involve slapping 1-200+ figures on the table, (most of them heavily obscured behind the front rank of a unit), and then 50 of them get taken off in the first couple of turns. Plus, the quantity of models means a lot of them will be in uniform unpainted or undercoat, where you can't really make out the quality of the model anyway. For a game like Malifaux, say, I care more about sculpt quality, because the lower count means each one will be getting more attention on the table.

I've been thinking about seeing if I can get back into WHF without actually supporting GW's pricing, both for selfish economical reasons and on the principle of not rewarding them for bad pricing. I think it's quite doable these days.

**Scott-S6**

Elemental wrote:
One thing I don't quite get is the "model quality" argument, because typical games of Warhammer Fantasy often involve slapping 1-200+ figures on the table, (most of them heavily obscured behind the front rank of a unit), and then 50 of them get taken off in the first couple of turns. Plus, the quantity of models means a lot of them will be in uniform unpainted or undercoat, where you can't really make out the quality of the model anyway..

I used to see that a lot in the days of horrible-monopose-plastics for WHFB, people would use metal models in the front rank and plastics for the rest.

In WHFB it definitely makes sense to use your favourite models for the front rank and the cheapest models you can find as filler.

**heartserenade**

nkelsch wrote:
And all I see is a bunch of bland, boring generic sculpts costing 1-2$ less than GW and PP, and then I see deeply flawed sculpts from mantic costing much much less. Then I see amazing models from AoW costing 1-2$ more than GW and PP.

Not $1-2 less. $4 or more. Remember when I pointed out the average GW infantry costs $15 or more (and the ones priced at $10 are small goblins)?

Everyone's minis cost about the same. And telling people who mostly play fantasy and 40k and telling them to buy cheaper historical and Appleseed (whatever that is) models doesn't help. That is like telling someone who is trying to buy a 2000$ bike that it is too expensive and they should buy a 1000$ riding lawnmower because they are both forms of transportation even though the person has no grass to mow and they explicitly want to ride a bike.

Historical, really?

Again, missed the point (and a very inappropriate analogy).

Fact: they are cheaper.

Fact: they are also of good quality. You may not like them subjectively but that doesn't change the fact that they're quality models.

To fit your motorcycle analogy, you can buy your $2000 bike if that's what you fancy, but it doesn't change the fact that there's another motorcycle of a different brand, which is on par in regards to quality, and they are offering $400 less. No one is forcing anyone to buy a motorcycle they don't want (maybe you don't like the other brand aesthetically), but it still remains that the other brand is on par in quality, and also cheaper.

A more apt comparison would be buying a Mac versus a PC. Having both of the same specs, the PC would be cheaper to build. Now, you may like the Mac subjectively (you like its design, you're more familiar with the OS itself) but performance-wise, the PC is the Mac's equal.

**Delephont**

Pacific wrote:

Well, I suppose the point would be that many of us remember when this was not the case. GW paints itself as the only way in the miniature wargaming hobby, while at the same time pricing out a pretty high percentage of kids who will therefore never get to try or experience it.

Sure there are other wargames out there, but in the UK at least the FLGS is only just starting to make it's presence known again. The chances are a lot of kids will go into a GW store, have a really fun intro game, tug at their parents shirt sleeve in eager hope and then be told "you must be joking" after they have totalled up the costs.

That to me, and I don't care what else you say, makes me rather sad about the whole situation. And ultimately in terms of the wider industry there will be less fresh blood coming into it, which is good for absolutely no-one.

But you could apply that to any hobby. You take your kid for a horse riding lesson, he/she loves it anwants a horse....sad that we all can't afford a stable and paddock. What about Go-Karting, great for a one off, try doing it regularly! Hey, how about Radio Controlled cars.....

I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say there are alternatives, and I think when the child tugs at Mummy or Daddys shirt sleeve, it's then that the parents have to explore and expound those alternatives. We all know it doesn't have to be a simple NO, play football instead, it can be NO, but have you seem Warmachine, Infinity, DUST, Kings of War, etc etc.....Google is the friend of the shirt sleeve tugged parent.....if they give a rats ass.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jah-joshua wrote:
@Navarro: i'm sorry man, i respect your work, but saying tabletop wargaming is the "people's game" is a joke...
the people's game is checkers, or maybe chess...
tabletop wargaming is for people with money, not people who live in real poverty...
here in the Third World, in any place you go, you will always find people playing checkers with bottle tops, and a hand drawn board...
starting price: $0
you use what you find on the ground...
THAT'S how poor people live...
poor people buy a kilo of rice, a kilo of beans, a kilo of potatoes, and a kilo of flour with their $35 dollars and feed their family for a couple of weeks...
they don't go out and buy a box of tactical marines, and then cry online about how they used to get 30 Beakies for $20 back in 1989...

cheers
jah

Man, I would offer you a real handshake if you were anywhere near me! and buy you a beer!!

This post says it all. I really don't understand "dreamers" like NAVARRO who want to talk about a game for the masses when the bloody retail price printed on the box says clearly "For Them With Monies"......is it really that hard to understand?

And what does it have to do with actual quality, whether artistic or manufacturing? Does NAVARRO really think that GW o any other company is going to individually price accoring to how well the sculpt is percieved by the "masses" or how well the end product came off the production line? He must have hit his head tying his shoe laces.

A premium product is usually defined as such based on it's price in relation to it's peers in the same market place, price per item or price per volume.

GW "sells" a premium product, regardless of what people think about it, hence the price GW feels it can charge. And as such comparig it to other premium hobbies is justified!

**Barfolomew**

Here is my view on the whole subject of pricing for table top games:

1) While GW does have higher quality in some areas, they are crap in others. I don't feel that I get better quality from GW and have actually seen more consistent quality from PP. GW quality is not better or worse than any other model manufacture. Item value remains the same.

2) Plastic is cheaper than metal to manufacture. Plastic also feels cheaper with less mass, meaning my perceived value is less. This means I should see a price decrease, not increase. Lowers item value.

3) All table top miniatures require hours of work by the player in order to have the model ready to play with. This means that the gratification is not instant. MtG, video games and many other hobbies have instant gratification, where miniatures require more input before you can use them. Lowers item value.

4) My biggest issue, the bare minimum to play the game is not competitive in most cases. The special and heavy weapons which come in the base box are not what people tend to play with for GW games. IG, CSM and SM are the biggest offender. Want a IG plasma gunner, shell out another $15 for the model. Want CSM terminators with 2x lightning claw, shell out another $10 per model for the bits because they only come with the lord model. At least the PP games come with, though static, items to play the unit out of the box. IG squad ($29), alternate heavy weapon ($15) and alternate special weapon (39.50) for a total of $57.17 (1 of 3 heavy weapons used). SM is just as bad with it being $51.25 if you want any other heavy weapon than a missile launcher. Now I do realize that there are extra models, but even normalizing for that, it is still $40.97 and $47.53 per squad.

5) Tournament points is the best benchmark as that is what is "the powers that be" have decided where the game is to be played. GW not supporting tournaments is a red herring and irrelevant to the argument. Combined with the above, the per army cost is much more for Fantasy and 40K.

Each person must determine what they see as good value.

**Delephont**

Barfolomew wrote:

2) Plastic is cheaper than metal to manufacture. Plastic also feels cheaper with less mass, meaning my perceived value is less. This means I should see a price decrease, not increase. Lowers item value.

Depends. When you say "manufacture", I assume you mean use as a miniature material rather than extraction and refining of the raw material. Piece price, plastic maybe cheaper than metal, but manufacturing costs are higher, as the tooling for plastics is generally more expeniseve (prohibitively so in some case) than tooling for "metal" miniatures. Which is why you see most of the smaller miniatures companies producing in metal or now, resin "types".

The design of miniatures to be made in metal is much flexible (due to manufacturing methods) than designing miniatures in plastics (for example you have to be aware of "under-cuts"), so this makes getting the miniature to look better than your average "toy soldier" a much bigger head-ache in plastics.

While "metal" as a raw material is cheaper than plastics, on average, you have to bear in mind that plastics are tied into the costs of oil, as oil is a key component in plastics manufacture. For how much longer plastic will be cheaper than metal is open to debate.

**NAVARRO**

jah-joshua wrote:
@Navarro: i'm sorry man, i respect your work, but saying tabletop wargaming is the "people's game" is a joke...
the people's game is checkers, or maybe chess...
tabletop wargaming is for people with money, not people who live in real poverty...
here in the Third World, in any place you go, you will always find people playing checkers with bottle tops, and a hand drawn board...
starting price: $0
you use what you find on the ground...
THAT'S how poor people live...
poor people buy a kilo of rice, a kilo of beans, a kilo of potatoes, and a kilo of flour with their $35 dollars and feed their family for a couple of weeks...
they don't go out and buy a box of tactical marines, and then cry online about how they used to get 30 Beakies for $20 back in 1989...

cheers
jah

Oh well just snap for the hyperbole mate!
How poor people live.... I actually said: " Its a peoples game and anyone who has time and money to think on hobbies ( many unfortunatly are on the limiar of poverty) can have fun with this."

I know people on the limiar of poverty have more important issues to handle than freaking hobbies like wargamming... But there are free wargames outhere... actually chess/chekkers is a form of wargame meets boardgame and as you say its free????... You can play wargames with paper, stones, bottle tops... I HAVE in my youth! What you could argument is that unlike chekkers some of these games are not popular and very obscure if no one introduces it to you, but that is another discussion...
My country is far from ritch and in my youth we did not need money and we still played all kinds of games... I will ask you this isnt there a deck of cards around? Stones? sand? wood? chalk? If there are chekkers and chess there you already have tokens for games! Man the brainwave that GW is the definition of wargamming is burned in the flesh of some of you in such a strange way that you seem to ignore that wargamming itself has many forms and some of those cost you nothing.

Now to the nonsense side of things:
As for delephont and the dreamer jabs lol man watever! The way you argument these days makes little sense.
Retail price on stones sticks and sand? Believe me wargames are some of the oldest forms of entertainment and if someone with no money wants to, he will find a way and play it. Surelly not GW kits or 40k minis thats not only ridiculous but thats also just one small slice of what composes wargames. I know I know outside GW there's a desert in your opinion.
As for the premium discussion man... are you trying to be funny? Good for you.

**Delephont**

NAVARRO wrote:
Now to the nonsense side of things:
As for delephont and the dreamer jabs lol man watever! The way you argument these days makes little sense.
Retail price on stones sticks and sand? Believe me wargames are some of the oldest forms of entertainment and if someone with no money wants to, he will find a way and play it. Surelly not GW kits or 40k minis thats not only ridiculous but thats also just one small slice of what composes wargames. I know I know outside GW there's a desert in your opinion.
As for the premium discussion man... are you trying to be funny? Good for you.

The only one spouting nonsense is you. Have a think about it, is anyone saying that "wargaming" in all it's forms is beyond the reach of the average man? We're talking about the price of GW products....dude, get with the show, or get out.

Idiot, of course you can go play a game of soldiers with paper cut-outs or even bits of branch (if you live near a forest) is that what the OP is talking about? Does that box of minis he has on the first page of this thread look like bottle tops or stones to you? The only reason peoples comments seem like nonsense to you is because either you can't or you refuse to read the thread and get to grips with the discussion points.

And for your information, I'm well aware of the sea of products outside of GW, but again, because I can stay on point with the discussion (a skill you seem to lack) I don't have to harp on about them everytime I post.

In all fairness to you, English isn't your mother tongue, I wouldn't have a hope of holding a conversation in your language, and wouldn't try. However, if your command of the language is preventing you from fully understanding the conversation, you might want to think twice before labelling other peoples comments as "nonsense".

**Elemental**

Scott-S6 wrote:
I used to see that a lot in the days of horrible-monopose-plastics for WHFB, people would use metal models in the front rank and plastics for the rest.

In WHFB it definitely makes sense to use your favourite models for the front rank and the cheapest models you can find as filler.

And I don't agree that the GW sculpts necessarily correspond with being the "best". Some are good, some are okay, some are dreadful. Same sort of quality range as most other companies, really. I know this is very personal, but I don't see the huge jump in quality in, say GW zombies compared to Mantic zombies that would justify the rather big price jump.

**NAVARRO**

Delephont wrote:

The only one spouting nonsense is you. Have a think about it, is anyone saying that "wargaming" in all it's forms is beyond the reach of the average man? We're talking about the price of GW products....dude, get with the show, or get out.
".

We are talking about "omg Prices" and making comparisons with other wargaming companies and options so to a degree we are talking about wargaming prices... as for getting out... sorry dear delephont not only thats kind of unpolite but again you make little sense... I could explain why you have zero authority to invite anyone here to get out, but its offtopic and I believe it would bring nothing to anyone.

Sorry if it annoys you but I have to ignore your invitation and I will keep on expressing my opinion regardless of your animosity... its your problem really, deal with it... or not.

**Ugavine**

GW has a couple of models I find are priced a bit high, Ork Battlewagon & Land Raider, but generally I find GW prices pretty reasonable in the realm of wargaming.

**jah-joshua**

@Navarro: the majority of the world's population is poor...
i'm sorry if i don't feel like the middle and upper classes represent "the people"...

as you said, GW's prices are were they are because they are trying to sell their product as a "Ferrari"...
that's their choice...
some products give me the Ferrari feeling, such as a box of Wolf Guard Termies, and i am happy to buy them (though i still look for a good deal, because bargain hunting means i can afford even more minis)...
other products do not give me he Ferrari feeling, such as Finecast, and don't get any of my money (better to give it to a company the does quality work, like Studio Mcvey)...

even more to the point, nobody is forced to buy GW products, so GW is not obligated to do the customer any favors...
they are a business, out to make a profit, not a community center out to benefit the people...
as you said, there are countless forms of wargames out there, and yet GW is still going strong...
people love the universes that have been created...
the cost to enter that universe is plainly marked on the package...
nobody is forced to step in the door...

personally, i don't play any tabletop games (i would rather be painting), but i buy the products of all the companies that catch my eye...
i buy all the books, and whatever minis i fancy, because i want the company to succeed...
i buy all these thing not because i need them, but because i want them...
hobbies are a luxury, plain and simple...

cheers
jah

**Scott-S6**

Elemental wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
I used to see that a lot in the days of horrible-monopose-plastics for WHFB, people would use metal models in the front rank and plastics for the rest.
In WHFB it definitely makes sense to use your favourite models for the front rank and the cheapest models you can find as filler.

And I don't agree that the GW sculpts necessarily correspond with being the "best". Some are good, some are okay, some are dreadful. Same sort of quality range as most other companies, really. I know this is very personal, but I don't see the huge jump in quality in, say GW zombies compared to Mantic zombies that would justify the rather big price jump.

Totally, WHFB is incredibly variable - some of the sculpts are really good, some are really dodgy.

**Noisy_Marine**

Scott-S6 wrote:
Elemental wrote:
One thing I don't quite get is the "model quality" argument, because typical games of Warhammer Fantasy often involve slapping 1-200+ figures on the table, (most of them heavily obscured behind the front rank of a unit), and then 50 of them get taken off in the first couple of turns. Plus, the quantity of models means a lot of them will be in uniform unpainted or undercoat, where you can't really make out the quality of the model anyway..

I used to see that a lot in the days of horrible-monopose-plastics for WHFB, people would use metal models in the front rank and plastics for the rest.

In WHFB it definitely makes sense to use your favourite models for the front rank and the cheapest models you can find as filler.

I'm of the opinion that WFB ought to use, say 10 models, to represent a unit. There's really no reason for there to be a 1:1 model ratio in a game where the units can number 40 or more models. But then they'd be selling less minis so it wouldn't work for GW.

**notprop**

Let's be honest, it also wouldn't look as good.

**NAVARRO**

jah-joshua wrote:
@Navarro: the majority of the world's population is poor...
i'm sorry if i don't feel like the middle and upper classes represent "the people"...

as you said, GW's prices are were they are because they are trying to sell their product as a "Ferrari"...
that's their choice...
some products give me the Ferrari feeling, such as a box of Wolf Guard Termies, and i am happy to buy them (though i still look for a good deal, because bargain hunting means i can afford even more minis)...
other products do not give me he Ferrari feeling, such as Finecast, and don't get any of my money (better to give it to a company the does quality work, like Studio Mcvey)...

even more to the point, nobody is forced to buy GW products, so GW is not obligated to do the customer any favors...
they are a business, out to make a profit, not a community center out to benefit the people...
as you said, there are countless forms of wargames out there, and yet GW is still going strong...
people love the universes that have been created...
the cost to enter that universe is plainly marked on the package...
nobody is forced to step in the door...

personally, i don't play any tabletop games (i would rather be painting), but i buy the products of all the companies that catch my eye...
i buy all the books, and whatever minis i fancy, because i want the company to succeed...
i buy all these thing not because i need them, but because i want them...
hobbies are a luxury, plain and simple...

cheers
jah

True on most of your points and I do agree with many of them... Fair enough that if we think on the majority of the world population most indeed do live in total poverty.

As for the ferrari, well I have a box of the new plaguebearers and man they are some of the coolest kits around, so yes indeed its hit and miss kind of feeling.

One thing I could care less is the manufacturers "impositions" and I'm not only talking about GW here, some are really silly on that regards, the stance that " you have to buy only this brand to play this game" its a myth and yes the only ones that drink from that water are the ones that choose to. 15mm scifi markets are a good example on what I consider open and constructive market... many games have no minis, many mini manufacturers develop for their own games and also other companies games...there is the feeling all business do try to work together in creating a good community. That is very good for you as a customer because you can choose the most economic options. All ranges are supported in some degree.

You still have some interesting developments in 28mm like songs of blades and heroes that let you choose what minis you like, the scale you like etc its all good... Thats the way I believe its better for us customers.

Today If I really want to indulge myself with minis I can spend 15 quid and have a small warband for rpg or bloodbowl team or some 15mm's etc and play free wargames for years. ( thats IMO peanuts and far from a premium/ expensive activity)

Edit: If I wanted to play 40k in a gw tourney on a GW store then If they say jump and pay 400 quid for a army I have to... Thing is I dont think that is the most mature way to live in this hobby of ours and I set up my own hobby the way I want to. GW can say what they want about finecast being the best revolutionary thing to hit the wargaming world and price it how they wish to but that does not make GW products a premium.

As for the prices being all the same everywhere, well the last years we have seen some companies riding the wave of GW bloated prices but not all go that route some do even find ways to reduce their prices.

**Delephont**

NAVARRO wrote:
Edit: If I wanted to play 40k in a gw tourney on a GW store then If they say jump and pay 400 quid for a army I have to... Thing is I dont think that is the most mature way to live in this hobby of ours and I set up my own hobby the way I want to. GW can say what they want about finecast being the best revolutionary thing to hit the wargaming world and price it how they wish to but that does not make GW products a premium.

As for the prices being all the same everywhere, well the last years we have seen some companies riding the wave of GW bloated prices but not all go that route some do even find ways to reduce their prices.

Yeah, I totally agree with these points. People who insist on playing WH40K the GW way have to accept the GW ideal on wargaming and it's pricing. By walking down the GW path you automatically have to accept the products as "premium" products or how else do you justify paying those prices. I drive a crappy Ford, it get's me to work and back, and when I need to go shopping it's great for that to. I could do all of those things in an Aston Martin, but that would be my choice and it makes no sense for me to complain about the cost of Aston Martins compared to Ford's if that's how I chose to own cars.

For the mature (of mind) gamer, who is willing to invest time in creating their own gaming environment, there is a world of opportunity (yes, even sticks and stones if you insist) to game at a lower price, and I would say (IMHO) these are the people who deserve the title of "Hard-core gamer".....those who choose to wander down to the local GW because that is their gaming world, well, you're still a gamer, but you are an enslaved gamer, and you've sold your freedom to the GW Feds.

**kanekaneo**

The start up costs for wargaming, is like opening a new business. The incline is huge and then it starts to lower. Once you have an army or two, you don't need to buy much else, a model or two. Unless GW troll you with a codex or FAQ that makes everything illegal >:O

**Eilif**

mwnciboo wrote:
I'm really pleased that everyone has stuck the issues without descending into a purile argument.

I always have a problem with the attitude of "If you don't like it, buy something else" or "the hobby is expensive get over yourself". Well I have to say no, on both counts because this acceptance of what is going on is akin to being an easily led sheep. GW has increased the prices year on year, regardless of financial circumstances, FINECAST has acted like a springboard for a further inflation busting price hike. My own take on this is that the current Executive Board and specifically Mr Kirby are lining their pockets handsomely. This is the fundamental problem of a Company that has generated such affection from it's fanbase, that when it goes Corporate, well the bottomline becomes Share price/investors and not the fanbase and to some degree not the products.

I believe GW is the only Model/Wargaming Company that is floated on a stock exchange, and for such a small customer base, we have to support a relatively large Corporate footprint which is expensive all round.

Spoiler:

GW Share price has been a steadily rising. Think about the cost of the GW Rhino model, think of the cost of the mould then think how many they have sold, the Rhino is one of the top Cash cows.
The cost of Digital Editions despite the low overheads of such items, is another example of rampant profit margins. There will be a definite cut-off, the price rises cannot increase indefinitely, the company does not need the price Increases, it's profits are exceptionally health especially in such a financially unstable world.

But if you are wondering where all the money goes? It isn't into Models or GW itself anymore, it's into the pockets of the Investors.

Directors Deals for Games Workshop (GAW)
Trade Date Action Notifier Price Currency Amount Holding
15-Aug-12 Buy Dividends Mark Wells 633 GBX 1,255 137985
9-Aug-12 Buy Tom Kirby 616 GBX 8,000 2131394
29-Jun-12 Buy Dividends Kevin Rountree 575 GBX 169 6315
25-Apr-12 Sell Mark Wells 570 GBX 1,982 136730
25-Apr-12 Buy Mark Wells 569.94 GBX 4,490 136730
23-Mar-12 Buy Tom Kirby 534.57 GBX 185,000 2123394
1-Nov-11 Exercise of option Mark Wells 191.2 GBX 5,020 134222
1-Nov-11 Exercise of option Kevin Rountree 191.2 GBX 5,020 6146
27-Oct-11 Buy Mark Wells 420 GBX 3,616 129202
14-Apr-11 Buy Mark Wells 430 GBX 7,051 125586
21-Sep-09 Buy Mark Wells 305 GBX 5,510 112589

So Tom Kirby owns 2131394 x £6.47 = £13.790119.18 so a nice £13 Million Pounds give or take.... Does that influence his business decisions? The fact he is about to retire? The fact that much of the money from the Dividend payout in 2011 could have been used to re-invest and cover all of the serious flaws in the games (lack of Codexes for certain factions for 2 editions) the drought of good specialist games.

I'm not anti-capitalist, far from it, but not all companies should float on the stock exchange and considering that GW is now in the FTSE 250, well we will all be milked for every penny.

The only way to make this hobby cheaper now is to Buy shares in the Company, and hope they pay second large Dividend soon.

Of the £21 you are paying for 5 Finecast Sword master of Hoeth a good percentage is going in Tom Kirby's Pocket.

These threads always go round and round about whether or not the prices are justified. It's an impossible argument to resolve because each person is going to judge the relative worth of GW products from their own perspective. I'm firmly in the "too expensive, haven't bought any in years" camp, but at this point I find posts like the above which explain the "why" much more interesting than posts that that argue about the merits.

GW is in a financial position where the investors have little incentive to really invest more than they are into the workings of the company, and every incentive to keep on raising prices to pad their own pockets. They've taken so much out of GW it must be apparent to them that they can't keep doing what they are doing forever. Thus they have even more incentive to get as much out as they can before the whole thing collapses. Even that won't be the end for them because they will have gotten out far more than they put in, and it's likely that someone will sweep in to scoop up GW if only for it's IP.

Put simply, GW investors have an actual incentive to keep raising prices until they drive it into the ground!

Price raises are not going to change, so for anyone looking at getting into, or entering GW, take an eyes-wide-open look at what the yearly price raises have been. If you're willing to see that same raise every year that you play the game, then jump right in. If not, prepare to buy used, buy off-brand, or find another game.

**Adam LongWalker**

Put simply, GW investors have an actual incentive to keep raising prices until they drive it into the ground!

I sort of agree with you but not in a manner on just what you are commenting about.

mwnciboo posted a chart on the price of GW stock. Looks rather good, except one small detail. How many shares are actually been traded on any given day. The information where I posted below comes from Yahoo fiance. For your basic information needs this is not bad for browsing. I did not post a url because it is going to change by the next secession and a new set of averages will be given for the next trading day. But you can find it yourself.

So what do we have for as an example for 8/28/2012. 15,710 shares traded for today.

Average for 3 months is 30,913 as of 8/28/2012.

Rather low is it not for a company that have millions of stock to be traded within a three month period. Don't you think? Besides I am so not used to these low amounts of stock trading from any company that calls themselves the "Worlds Largest" of anything.

I do have a stock portfolio albeit a small one. Over the years I sort got out of the legalize gambling known as the stock market and only kept those bell weather stocks that deal in durable goods.

Game Workshop is not one of the companies in my stock portfolio because on how I believe the company is being professionally ran, what kinds of investments that they are making, (the key here is R@D and PR) and to me the lack of a long term goal on just where the company needs to be heading.

You know, the corporation (if a healthy one) did not have to jack up(yes people on certain items it was over 20%. Been posted on this site as well as others) the prices that they did on all of their product before 6th ed came out. They did, which is another reason why I do not invest into GW. The loss of their customer base. Which ironically is what I believe is the reason for the price hike in the first place.

**frozenwastes**

It's a viscous cycle. Raise the prices-- sell a bit less. So you raise the prices to make up for that and selll a bit less. I don't think GW can do anything other than continue to raise the prices 10%+ per year or start seeing revenue shrink.

If you play a GW game, expect units to continue to get repackaged into smaller model count sets if they come with more than 10 and prices to continue to be increased 10% or more every year. If you're a lifer you get to go through the year over year grind.

The lifers who see the compounding results of their year over year price increases are the minority. Most of GW's customers will just see one or two before moving onto other things (likely not even miniature related).

GW needs to keep increasing prices to combat shrinking unit sales. They should raise prices because the churn of their customer base means that people are going to quit anyway, so they may as well get the maximum they can from a new customer before they quit.

Then they can just issue dividends and bonuses and retire rich. There's simply no incentive for upper management to do anything differently.

**mwnciboo**

Agreed, it's immensely sad really. The Shares historically have been a good investment, but it is interesting to see how the trade has been so small.

This is strange for 2 reasons; 1 they are considered the darlings of the Stockmarket bucking the market trend, 2, the fact they spent 2-3 years clearing their Debts and once cleared paid a fat dividend to investors and have since had good profits.

All we can hope for is that the company goes through a rough patch and has to be bought out or collapses, and someone can buy up the IP Rights.

**Wardragoon**

mwnciboo wrote:
Agreed, it's immensely sad really. The Shares historically have been a good investment, but it is interesting to see how the trade has been so small.

This is strange for 2 reasons; 1 they are considered the darlings of the Stockmarket bucking the market trend, 2, the fact they spent 2-3 years clearing their Debts and once cleared paid a fat dividend to investors and have since had good profits.

All we can hope for is that the company goes through a rough patch and has to be bought out or collapses, and someone can buy up the IP Rights.

Only problem is I could see some armies getting Squated if IP were to be bought out.

**frozenwastes**

I hope they get even more aggressive with their price increases. They went from 7% a year up to 10%+ a year, so maybe they'll go to 15%+ a year with some times being 20%+.

Every time they increase prices, they give more and more of the miniature wargaming fantasy and sci-fi market to other companies (they already have no market share in the historical miniatures). More companies = more choices, more miniatures, more rules. Just more options.

So keep going GW. Do us proud.

.

**Wardragoon**

frozenwastes wrote:
I hope they get even more aggressive with their price increases. They went from 7% a year up to 10%+ a year, so maybe they'll go to 15%+ a year with some times being 20%+.

Every time they increase prices, they give more and more of the miniature wargaming fantasy and sci-fi market to other companies. More companies = more choices, more miniatures, more rules. Just more options.

So keep going GW. Do us proud.

Well I guess that would make me switch over to Mantic

**frozenwastes**

Whether they increase their rate of increase or not, you should already be expecting compounding price increases of around 10% a year if you've decided to stick it out with GW for the long haul.

**notprop**

mwnciboo wrote:
Agreed, it's immensely sad really. The Shares historically have been a good investment, but it is interesting to see how the trade has been so small.

This is strange for 2 reasons; 1 they are considered the darlings of the Stockmarket bucking the market trend, 2, the fact they spent 2-3 years clearing their Debts and once cleared paid a fat dividend to investors and have since had good profits.

All we can hope for is that the company goes through a rough patch and has to be bought out or collapses, and someone can buy up the IP Rights.

I don't see what's so sad? From and investors POV they are great; they hold value and grow sustainably over time. This is why the same half a dozen pension trusts have been holding stock there since the day dot and will continue to hold it especially while they are increasing dividends.

The City may not understand GWs activities but they like the balance sheet.

**mwnciboo**

It's sad that a once interesting hobby, has been reduced to literally a money making scheme. Hence sad, it's lost it's soul, rather like the Orks who have become a generic race of nonsense when once we had quirky interesting clans etc.

Now, it forgets about the Game and the ideals that GW was founded, now it's about making people (e.g Investors) Rich. This changes the focus from the Consumer to the Investor, decisions are made by and for Investors (The Executive Board are all Investors), this means that business decisions fundamentally about themselves and their own investment, not about the good of the Hobby or being innovative, hence why I can imagine little inertia or opposition to inflation busting price hikes. The top wages of FTSE 250 Executives has risen massively.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2011/nov/22/pay

This comes back to the idea that Financial rules self regulate under supply and demand. The problem is once you make profits, you can start to redistribute that as you see fit and change your prices to pull in the maximum profit, especially in an industry where you are the only provider. GW has the monopoly on it's IP and anything pretty similiar gets closed down, but there are no real competitors of similar size to drive prices down. The old SAMUNG vs APPLE going on at the moment with SMART Phones, is a good example of competition and IP and Trademark fighting. GW got to the post 1st and no-one is even close to them as a Corporate entity. MANTIC, PP etc have a long way to go to get to the size of GW or even close.

There is zero, emotional attachment to say "Rio Tinto" the Mining Giant, or "BARCLAYS" Bank so I invest in them looking purely at a Balance sheet for resources needed (e.g Metal / Mineral mining or Commercial banking) there is no emotional attachment to a piece of mineral. Globally Minerals and banking are fundamental to Commerce/ Industry and world Trade. GW is frivalous by it's nature. We don't actually need it, we do it to get rid of excess income and enjoy ourselves, there aren't many Stock Exchange Companies like GW on the FTSE 250. The closest I can come up with is Weatherspoons chain, which you could argue is Frivalous too. It's not even a service sector, it is a specialist form of Retail.