OMG - Prices

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**notprop**

To me it seems you object to the scale of GW.

I mean surely all games companies we're set up to put food on the table out of something the owners like to do. GW put more food on more tables.

I don't object to this or the fact that Tom Kirby has made himself allot of money from managing and floating GW. He took the risks in the buy out and should therefore reap the reward.

I don't suppose we would be having a whip round if he had fallen on his arse.

GW models are expensive because of the retail chain. GW is the size it is because of the retail chain. They can not replace the later to help the former without significantly reducing their market presence (vital for more custom) and turnover.

So for this reason and others I can understand why GW charge as they do.

I actually have more of an issue with other companies that charge similar prices.

**Pacific**

notprop wrote:
To me it seems you object to the scale of GW.

I think this is really the heart of the issue, and what Mace Windoo alluded to in his previous post. There is a time that (a lot of us) remember when you had the feeling that GW was a games company first, a business to make money second.

I think that everyone can accept that in becoming public GW would become responsible to its shareholders, and like you say of course this is just the way things are, but I guess there is something of a 'line in the sand', about how far you can go to satisfy profitability, while at the same time not damaging the core mandate of what the company should be about. With some of the issues to arise recently, such as the Finecast quality controls, one might discern that the scales have tipped too far in that direction. In that particular case, I've read several educated commentaries on those quality issues, and that they could easily have been circumvented with a higher grade resin, and the use of pressure casting rather than spin (or if the latter was used, only on moulds that were designed with that in mind). But, this wasn't done, and at the same time a massive share dividend payout is made. I suppose whether you see this is 'acceptable' behaviour or not, when it comes down to it the customer is worse off, and I don't think un-entitled to have a bit of a whinge!

So, I don't think criticism of GW in this regard is unreasonable. The growth into a large, transnational corporation is a bit of a two-edged sword. The benefits have been many, and the wargaming industry has never seen the like of a standardised system purchasable in so many different countries, which has also helped to improve the growth of the industry as a whole. But, the downsides are also there, and are easily visible for those who have followed the company for a long time, especially when the relationship between customer and company has been so close. I think that is perhaps why so many people can get vitriolic about it - the transformation of GW has not been easily conscionable.

**CainTheHunter**

Since the picture in the opening post is blocked by filter, may I ask what is it? Finecast DE Incubi or smth? I decided to buy a small Eldar allied detachment recently and was shocked to see that Farseer is being sold together with warlocks only for about similar price and five eldar rangers cost over 20 GBP. It all ended with me buying five metal OOP Eldar Rangers and Eldrad on e-bay for approximately 18 GBP in total.
Second-hand market FTW!

**Necro**

The picture is of High Elf Sword Masters of Hoeth.

There is 5 finecast mini's in the box

**CainTheHunter**

Necro wrote:
The picture is of High Elf Sword Masters of Hoeth.

There is 5 finecast mini's in the box

And they are replicas of old OOP metal ones if I am not mistaken, whereas IoB Swordmasters are a beauty to watch. For the same price on e-bay I can get the whole IoB HE range with 5 reavers, mage, 10 Seaguards and 10!!! Swordmasters.

**jah-joshua**

exactly, Cain...
there's the crux...

yes, this box of Swordmasters is pretty pointless...
5 identical, poorly cast soft resin, pieces for the same price as a bunch of really beautiful plastics...
this last year of Finecast has been like watching a slow trainwreck...

my problem is not with the price of this box, it is with its simple existence...
i wouldn't buy it for $10...
the plastics are just so much better, and we know resin can be done right...
i see the benefit of new technology being used to take plastic kits to a new high, and i feel like some of the money i spend on kits is going to a good cause: giving me better minis...
i see droopy, holey, Finecast minis and feel like someone is playing a bad joke...

my beef is not with pricing, it's with quality...
good quality is always worth its cost, in my experience...
i've had some really good deals on some really rubbish sculpts and felt buyers remorse, meanwhile i giggle like a kid at Christmas everytime i look at my large scale Forgeworld Marines, which cost a lot even when they were in production...
feels like money well spent...

maybe i'm a dreamer, but i hope that if enough people spend their money on plastics, and boycott Finecast, GW will be forced to change the formula and casting method to give us a product that feels like a fair deal, instead of a rip-off...
i love resin minis, even the expensive boutique ones, but i'm only throwing boutique money at boutique quality...

the new Dark Vengeance box seems to be a step in the right direction...
a limited edition plastic mini that will be cast right the first time, saving thousand of people the hassle of returns and runaround...
a load of highly detailed, push-fit, minis at a reasonable price, with a non-limited version for people who can't get in on the first run...
there are even a bunch of people who have been surprised by the "low" price...
surely, that's a first after this last year of strange descisions at HQ...
i know i will be happily clipping bits when my box arrives

...

cheers
jah

**Wardragoon**

mwnciboo wrote:
It's sad that a once interesting hobby, has been reduced to literally a money making scheme. Hence sad, it's lost it's soul, rather like the Orks who have become a generic race of nonsense when once we had quirky interesting clans etc.

Now, it forgets about the Game and the ideals that GW was founded, now it's about making people (e.g Investors) Rich. This changes the focus from the Consumer to the Investor, decisions are made by and for Investors (The Executive Board are all Investors), this means that business decisions fundamentally about themselves and their own investment, not about the good of the Hobby or being innovative, hence why I can imagine little inertia or opposition to inflation busting price hikes. The top wages of FTSE 250 Executives has risen massively.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2011/nov/22/pay

This comes back to the idea that Financial rules self regulate under supply and demand. The problem is once you make profits, you can start to redistribute that as you see fit and change your prices to pull in the maximum profit, especially in an industry where you are the only provider. GW has the monopoly on it's IP and anything pretty similiar gets closed down, but there are no real competitors of similar size to drive prices down. The old SAMUNG vs APPLE going on at the moment with SMART Phones, is a good example of competition and IP and Trademark fighting. GW got to the post 1st and no-one is even close to them as a Corporate entity. MANTIC, PP etc have a long way to go to get to the size of GW or even close.

There is zero, emotional attachment to say "Rio Tinto" the Mining Giant, or "BARCLAYS" Bank so I invest in them looking purely at a Balance sheet for resources needed (e.g Metal / Mineral mining or Commercial banking) there is no emotional attachment to a piece of mineral. Globally Minerals and banking are fundamental to Commerce/ Industry and world Trade. GW is frivalous by it's nature. We don't actually need it, we do it to get rid of excess income and enjoy ourselves, there aren't many Stock Exchange Companies like GW on the FTSE 250. The closest I can come up with is Weatherspoons chain, which you could argue is Frivalous too. It's not even a service sector, it is a specialist form of Retail.

Well there is some attachment to Rio Tinto here, much of my family works of a subsidiary of theirs

. But I do agree with what you are saying.

**mwnciboo**

Nice to know my investments are supporting jobs on the far side of the globe.

**kanekaneo**

Does anyone know the discounts that GW employee's get.

I swear at mine the employee's get like 50% off. I don't know how many employee's there are, but that hefty discount is criminal. They are feeding their own hobbying needs, by making us pay for it. In addition to the huge amount of cash investors are raking in. :O

**Testify**

kanekaneo wrote:
Does anyone know the discounts that GW employee's get.

I swear at mine the employee's get like 50% off. I don't know how many employee's there are, but that hefty discount is criminal. They are feeding their own hobbying needs, by making us pay for it. In addition to the huge amount of cash investors are raking in. :O

The people who work there are hobbyists. If they didn't get a large discount, I think the mysterious dissapearance of stock would be much higher.

**CainTheHunter**

Here they are getting 20% off, but it is not official GW shop - just an independent retailer which sells 99% GW and remaining 1% consists of Warlord Games Bolt action WW2 miniatures and some Army Painter stuff.

**japehlio**

It is 50% for staffers aye. Have to be some perks for putting up with us lot

**Grimtuff**

kanekaneo wrote:
Does anyone know the discounts that GW employee's get.

I swear at mine the employee's get like 50% off. I don't know how many employee's there are, but that hefty discount is criminal. They are feeding their own hobbying needs, by making us pay for it. In addition to the huge amount of cash investors are raking in. :O

It's 50%, but it has been eroded to that from even better ones in past years. Gone are the days when staff could order stuff by weight from mail order (£30 per kilo IIRC), things like Crisis battlesuits costs about 80p each. The discounts were horrendous, then GW got rid of it when they got rid of their bits system. I remember a time at my local store with the key timers spending their entire wage packets on these orders due to the deep discounts they gave.

**eldartau1987**

GW employees get 50% off. Just confirming from experience.

**Pacific**

Grimtuff wrote:
kanekaneo wrote:
Does anyone know the discounts that GW employee's get.

I swear at mine the employee's get like 50% off. I don't know how many employee's there are, but that hefty discount is criminal. They are feeding their own hobbying needs, by making us pay for it. In addition to the huge amount of cash investors are raking in. :O

It's 50%, but it has been eroded to that from even better ones in past years. Gone are the days when staff could order stuff by weight from mail order (£30 per kilo IIRC), things like Crisis battlesuits costs about 80p each. The discounts were horrendous, then GW got rid of it when they got rid of their bits system. I remember a time at my local store with the key timers spending their entire wage packets on these orders due to the deep discounts they gave.

That's right, many years ago when I worked as a staffer we could buy by weight. I got some truly mental deals on all metal armies (2000pt Steel Legion army for less than £100 IIRC, and probably the bulk of an entire Eldar Craftworld for similar price).

I believe some time after I left they reduced the reduction on plastics to 50%, and now obviously metals/resin as well (the latter in particular is hilarious, as those things are produced for pennies). I guess it was pretty good at the time, although not unique in the world of retail - I worked in a clothing store with more than 80% for instance, but also somewhat better than the likes of HMV (who gave a really crap discount, again considering the tiny net cost of CD's/DVD's).

Back then you also had a lot of 'inheritance' of armies as well, of the likes of old display armies and the like, where they would find their way to a staff members home rather than going into the bin. I'm guessing as GW has grown over the last decade or more, things have undoubtedly changed and now GW runs a tighter ship - you seem to get a lot less 'characters', and without knowing for sure I would hazard a guess that its a lot less fun these days than it was a decade ago.

**A Town Called Malus**

Lotus wrote:
At least you aren't Tau. Finecast only Pathfinders and Kroot Hounds? Both of which are important. It sucks! Also, trying to find used metal ones here is a big PITA for me.

Convert Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines into them. Don't glue on the shoulder pad and cut the underslung grenade launcher off spare pulse carbines and glue them on the top of the Pulse carbine you're using. Voila, cheap(er) Pathfinders.

On topic, yes it's kinda silly. I'm just glad I got a full unit of Black Guard before their price went up £8 when they became Finecast.

**Trasvi**

RE: Share prices.

I don't believe looking at the share prices over time is really worth anything much for a few reasons:
1) The majority of people buying are executives within the company
2) There is very very little movement of stock at all - hardly any shares actually traded
3) GW isn't big enough or cool enough to get any real financial analysis done.

I think a good example is Groupon. Their revenue and profits have been going up very steadily but this last quarter people their share prices went down. Why? Their increases in revenue and profits came from non-core business lines, whilst their core business line (coupons) dropped in revenue. Sounds a little like GW to me.

**Adam LongWalker**

Trasvi wrote:
RE: Share prices.

I don't believe looking at the share prices over time is really worth anything much for a few reasons:
1) The majority of people buying are executives within the company
2) There is very very little movement of stock at all - hardly any shares actually traded
3) GW isn't big enough or cool enough to get any real financial analysis done.

I think a good example is Groupon. Their revenue and profits have been going up very steadily but this last quarter people their share prices went down. Why? Their increases in revenue and profits came from non-core business lines, whilst their core business line (coupons) dropped in revenue. Sounds a little like GW to me.

Glad you picked that up. Again I will not purchase stock in this company as reasons I believe are 1 and 2 that you have posted.

**Amaya**

Okay, next summer I want to work at the local Games Workshop store now.

**SorataZ**

Lotus wrote:
At least you aren't Tau. Finecast only Pathfinders and Kroot Hounds? Both of which are important. It sucks! Also, trying to find used metal ones here is a big PITA for me.

Do it like a friend of me and use plastic Khorne Hounds with some greenstuff.

**A Town Called Malus**

SorataZ wrote:
Lotus wrote:
At least you aren't Tau. Finecast only Pathfinders and Kroot Hounds? Both of which are important. It sucks! Also, trying to find used metal ones here is a big PITA for me.

Do it like a friend of me and use plastic Khorne Hounds with some greenstuff.

Also I think Hounds actually went down in price after being converted to finecast, considering that you now get 4 in a box as opposed to 2 metal ones.

**Lanrak**

Hi again.
JUST to be super clear about this.
NO-ONE objected to GW becoming a PLC back in 1992-93.

Right up untill 1997 GW plc was doing great,the game developers were developing a wide range of games for a wide range of gamers.
(Doubling turn over every 3 years!)

Then the influence of GW plc corperate started to impact game development.
They belived they could focus on the easy to please, and not lose the net amount of customers, as the fast turn over of new customers would sustain them.(An intitial slowing of growth was expected .)

In short they undervalued the actual impact of good rule sets and great gameplay on the 'word of mouth marketing' they relied on.
(Veteran gamers recruit and keep other gameris interested in the game if the rules are good .)

But before the downturn could realy be noticed.LoTR came along, and with a GOOD RULE SET, and MASSIVE MULTIMEDIA GLOBAL ADVERTISING.

And the GW plc corperate managment confused the decision to focus on short term ,(customers and sales,) with the impact of millions of £/$/e FREE advertising!

After the LoTR bubble burst.Mr Tom Kirby GW plc Chairman admitted they (the corperate managment ), had 'grown fat and lazy on the back of easy sucess of the LoTR'.(After declaring that GW plc was 'in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children.')

So the corperate managment admitted to being fat and lazy.

So what new intuitive and dynamic buisness practices have they established in the last few years?
Er, um, well , they reduced the effctivness of thier ONLY recruitment source.
(Moving B&M stores to lower traffic areas and reducing staffing levels.)
Sourced cheaper materials and products , but charge the same or more for them.

In short, the self serving short sighted decisions of the corpertate managment have lost massive chunk of the customer base , and forced up the retail price to compensate for falling sales volumes.

We dont object to GW being a PLC.
Just Mr Kirby and Wells taking the easiest path to personal wealth, at the detriment of the games they pretent to support.

(The great guys in the studio are just following orders...)

**mwnciboo**

Are just following Orders? You are using the Nuremberg Defence? I digress.

Anyway you cannot stop a Company becoming a PLC, it's kind of difficult thing to address. It's almost a tenet of Capitalism, that when a company gets above a certain size it turns into a faceless corporate entity.

**Myrthan**

I wanna work at GW just for the 50% discount for a summer. Then quit MUAHAHAH

**Palindrome**

mwnciboo wrote:
Are just following Orders? You are using the Nuremberg Defence? I digress.

Anyway you cannot stop a Company becoming a PLC, it's kind of difficult thing to address. It's almost a tenet of Capitalism, that when a company gets above a certain size it turns into a faceless corporate entity.

Explain Valve.

GW prices are ridiculous and the 'cooler' manufacturers have matched their prices accordingly, but you only need to look at historical manufacturers to see just how over priced GW's models actually are.

You don't have to pay their prices though, I buy the entirety of my GW stuff from ebay, usually at a significant discount (50%+) over RRP. I also have a reasonably sized lead mountain that I have amassed over the years, my newest project is an all infantry 2000 point Catachan army that I bought 15-20 years ago and am now in the process of repainting.

**Kaldor**

Palindrome wrote:
mwnciboo wrote:
Are just following Orders? You are using the Nuremberg Defence? I digress.

Anyway you cannot stop a Company becoming a PLC, it's kind of difficult thing to address. It's almost a tenet of Capitalism, that when a company gets above a certain size it turns into a faceless corporate entity.

Explain Valve.

GW prices are ridiculous and the 'cooler' manufacturers have matched their prices accordingly, but you only need to look at historical manufacturers to see just how over priced GW's models actually are.

Look, I nearly shat bricks when I saw how much Bretonnian Grail Knights cost here in Australia. $125 for 5 models. Five cavalry sized models.

It's completely ridiculous. There is no force on this earth that could compel me to buy those models at that price.

However, comparing them to historical manufacturers is kinda like "you only need to look at green plastic army men to see how over-priced GW is".

**Palindrome**

Kaldor wrote:

However, comparing them to historical manufacturers is kinda like "you only need to look at green plastic army men to see how over-priced GW is".

Really? Compared to for example the Perrys, Victrix or Warlord Games GW kits are nothing special and GW vehicle kits are simply sub par. A lot of historicals manufactuers are of quite low quality but that doesn't mean that they all are.

**winterdyne**

Indeed, I just got 40 Perry War of the Roses men at arms for £18. 40! Choice of bills / halberds / bows etc, command models included... superb sculpts....

**mwnciboo**

Palindrome wrote:
Explain Valve.

Well to me personally it's got to be an indepth Cost Benefit analysis, Value is a Compromise of Satisfactory Quality, Satisfactory Quantity, utility and Satisfactory Price.

Quality; is it good enough for my purposes? Is it too detailed and over the top for my purposes? Does it fulfil the role well despite being low quality? Does it need to be high Quality?

Quantity; How many do I need? What is the cost per unit? Total cost of requirements versus the number of items needed to meet that requirement? How many items per pack?

Utility; Do i need this? Is it disposable/ one use? Does it have multiple uses? Can I use this item for other things?

Price; Can I afford it? Does it meet the requirements to a satisfactory level and therefore justify the price? Is the Price inline with my assessment of the items Abilites? Is it a reasonable price given a Profit margin? Will I benefit from this purchase?

Applying my Logic to the Recent Drop Zone Commander release.

Quality :- Excellent
Quantity :- Boxed sets, with addon packs reduces need to buy everything separately.
Utility:- Not sure there is any Cross-over with other systems/ lines. Also incompatible with my 28mm and 15mm Terrain
Price :- Expensive but the premium you pay for Quality Miniatures.

Overall my personal take on this. Nice but I won't buy it and not entirely because of price. The fact that it is 10mm means my 28mm and 15mm Terrain looks silly, so I would have to re-invest in terrain, e.g another Scale of system, which really drags down the Utility side.

If this was 15mm I would probably have bought a small Skirmish force, as it would fit in with my FOW and Force on Force terrain and models.

Value is difficult to quantify but that is my almost subconcious thought process.

**Kaldor**

mwnciboo wrote:
Palindrome wrote:
Explain Valve.

Well to me personally it's got to be an indepth Cost Benefit analysis, Value is a Compromise of Satisfactory Quality, Satisfactory Quantity, utility and Satisfactory Price.

Quality; is it good enough for my purposes? Is it too detailed and over the top for my purposes? Does it fulfil the role well despite being low quality? Does it need to be high Quality?

Quantity; How many do I need? What is the cost per unit? Total cost of requirements versus the number of items needed to meet that requirement? How many items per pack?

Utility; Do i need this? Is it disposable/ one use? Does it have multiple uses? Can I use this item for other things?

Price; Can I afford it? Does it meet the requirements to a satisfactory level and therefore justify the price? Is the Price inline with my assessment of the items Abilites? Is it a reasonable price given a Profit margin? Will I benefit from this purchase?

Applying my Logic to the Recent Drop Zone Commander release.

Quality :- Excellent
Quantity :- Boxed sets, with addon packs reduces need to buy everything separately.
Utility:- Not sure there is any Cross-over with other systems/ lines. Also incompatible with my 28mm and 15mm Terrain
Price :- Expensive but the premium you pay for Quality Miniatures.

Overall my personal take on this. Nice but I won't buy it and not entirely because of price. The fact that it is 10mm means my 28mm and 15mm Terrain looks silly, so I would have to re-invest in terrain, e.g another Scale of system, which really drags down the Utility side.

If this was 15mm I would probably have bought a small Skirmish force, as it would fit in with my FOW and Force on Force terrain and models.

Value is difficult to quantify but that is my almost subconcious thought process.

Well, that's nice. But I'm pretty sure he was asking about ValVe. The online gaming company.