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So I'm playing around with some Tau Space Marine Auxiliaries I've designed (the work in progress is in my signature) and we're trying to "balance" them for play. Right now I could technically run the Ally rules for using them, but I'd like them to use the Tau weaponry they're holding. This is what we've come up with.

Gue'shas Auxiliaries - 80 points (Troop Choice)
Gue'shas'la 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+
Gue'shas'ui 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+

Story
As the Tau began their assaults in the Eastern Fringe and fights with the Imperium became more prevalent, many stationed Imperial Guard joined ranks with the Tau and their fight for the Greater Good while maintaining the ability to continue their belief in the Emperor and his divinity. As the war drove onward, and Space Marines entered the fray against the Tau, the Tau have tried their hardest to convert the sons of the Emperor to their side, usually with little avail. However recent developments in technology have caused the Tau to discover a mixture of drugs, memory wiping/tweaking, and various other techniques in combination can turn some of the sons of the Emperor against his followers. These Gue'shas (Human Warriors) are brought into the fold and retrained to be some of the most powerful infantry the Tau can field in battle. Although their usage is kept discreet in order to keep from drawing the Imperium's ire, they are deployed on massive campaigns where the sight of them fighting for the Tau is enough for some Imperial Worlds to instantly turn over to their side.

Unit Composition
-Squad consists of 5 Gue'shas'la infantry

Unit Type
-Infantry

Wargear
-Power Armor
-Pulse Rifle

Special Rules
-Traitors (Although the humans who have joined the Tau empire bear no ill-will towards their former compatriots, the same can not be said of Imperial troops fighting the auxiliaries. Imperial troops will always hit a Gue'shas on a roll of 3+ in close combat, regardless of relative Weapon Skill.)
-The Greater Truth (If a Gue'vessa unit is within 6" of a Gue'shas unit, they may replace their leadership value with the Gue'shas's.)

Options
-Units may replace their Pulse Rifle with a Pulse Carbine for free
-May include up to five additional Gue'shas'la at 16 points per model.
-If the Squad numbers 10 units, one unit may replace his Pulse Rifle with the following:
--Flamer (+4 points)
--Burst Cannon (+8 points)
--Fusion Blaster (+12 points)
-If the Squad numbers 10 units, one unit may replace his Pulse Rifle with the following:
--Plasma Rifle (+20 points)
-One unit may be replaced with a Gue'shas'ui for +10 points, and may replace his Pulse Rifle with:
--Chain Sword and Pulse Pistol (Free)
--Chain Sword and Shield Generator (+15 Points)
--Flamer (+4 points)
--Burst Cannon (+8 points)
--Plasma Rifle (+20 points)
-Each unit may take Photon Grenades for +1 points per model or EMP Grenades for +3 point per model.

Dedicated Transport
If the Gue'shas unit numbers 10 models or less it may select a Devilfish Trooper Carrier as a Dedicated Transport without using an FOC slot.

What does 'Traitor' do?
Why do Tau units use the slave marines Ld?
Furthermore as effectively brainwashed slave marines, I wouldn't really give them the Combat Squadding or Combat Tactics abilities.

IF the Tau did reprogram them, I doubt that they'd retrain them with the imperial training, they'd do it with the paths of Mont'ka and Kauyon.

The weapon upgrades should quite probably match the Battlsuit ones. Especially being it has the increased statline of a marine to go with it.
Flamer + 4
Burst Cannon + 8
Fusion Blaster + 12
Plasma Rifle + 20

The Flamer / Plasma Rifle / Burst Cannon on the 'ui should be priced seperately, not 10pts for the lot.

Also, what does the Shield do? (It may need to cost something. a Pulse Rifle / Carbine is worth roughly 2pts)

The costs of Photon Grenades and EMP Grenades should be reversed.

I like the models you've made for this, but your rules and fluff need a bit of a tweak I think... though I'm happy to help if you want it :p

 Ovion wrote:
What does 'Traitor' do?
Why do Tau units use the slave marines Ld?
Furthermore as effectively brainwashed slave marines, I wouldn't really give them the Combat Squadding or Combat Tactics abilities.

IF the Tau did reprogram them, I doubt that they'd retrain them with the imperial training, they'd do it with the paths of Mont'ka and Kauyon.

The weapon upgrades should quite probably match the Battlsuit ones. Especially being it has the increased statline of a marine to go with it.
Flamer + 4
Burst Cannon + 8
Fusion Blaster + 12
Plasma Rifle + 20

The Flamer / Plasma Rifle / Burst Cannon on the 'ui should be priced seperately, not 10pts for the lot.

Also, what does the Shield do? (It may need to cost something. a Pulse Rifle / Carbine is worth roughly 2pts)

The costs of Photon Grenades and EMP Grenades should be reversed.

I like the models you've made for this, but your rules and fluff need a bit of a tweak I think... though I'm happy to help if you want it :p

I love this kinda help, I'm newer to the rules and was basing it on a mix of Firewarrior/Tactical Marine rules xD

The baseline stats are the Sergeant/Tactical Marine stats from Space Marines, I kinda threw the weapons in equivalent slots (Flamer-Flamer, Plasma Rifle-Plasma SpaceMarineThingy, Melta-equivalent, etc.), I went with your values though.

Traitor is the ability that Gue'vessa get where they have a much higher chance to be hit in melee by Imperium units or something of the sort.
Traitors: Although the humans who have joined the Tau empire bear no ill-will towards their former compatriots, the same can not be said of Imperial troops fighting the auxiliaries. Imperial troops will always hit a Gue'vesa on a roll of 3+ in close combat, regardless of relative Weapon Skill.

Edit: Did some revising, I'm considering having the Shield give him an Invul save or something but nothing massively broken.

This'd all be easier if my Tau codex was on me.. (I'm at work)

For Traitor, I think it would make more sense to give imperial enemies Preferred Enemy against the unit.

If you want it to give say, a 4+ invun, then it should cost at least 15pts to give it a shield and sword.

I'd probably say that giving it the option for replacing the Pulse Rifle with a Chainsword and Pulse Pistol for free, then taking a shield for +15pts (The shield generator on the suits is 20pts for what it's worth.)

 Ovion wrote:
For Traitor, I think it would make more sense to give imperial enemies Preferred Enemy against the unit.

If you want it to give say, a 4+ invun, then it should cost at least 15pts to give it a shield and sword.

I'd probably say that giving it the option for replacing the Pulse Rifle with a Chainsword and Pulse Pistol for free, then taking a shield for +15pts (The shield generator on the suits is 20pts for what it's worth.)

I've never seen the Pulse Pistol before, is that a real weapon?

Yes. I think all of... 2 units in the Tau Codex have one...
The Sniper Drone Controller and the ejected Suit Pilot.

It's basically Rng 12", Str5, AP5, Pistol.

Easy way to model it is take a Pulse Carbine, clip off the Grenade Launcher, or a Pulse Rifle, then cut the barrel down.
You can see one on my Drone Controller here:

 Ovion wrote:
Yes. I think all of... 2 units in the Tau Codex have one...
The Sniper Drone Controller and the ejected Suit Pilot.

It's basically Rng 12", Str5, AP5, Pistol.

Haha IT HAS A USE!

Edit: That's awesome, I wish I had starting writing these rules before making the models though haha, my best bet will probably be to arm most of my next squad with Rail Rifles to even it all out.

I'm tempted to start constructing a full Gue'vessa force, consisting of like two squads of Tac Marines, some Imperial Guard and Kasrkins, and maybe a Gue'vessa Battlesuit Pilot or something.

Oh. This is an interesting problem. They could use a little more tau weirdness and better interaction with space marine conventions. The sixteenth point of each model is attributable to the free upgrade weapons that tactical squads get, and veteran sergeants are automatic to avoid having an upgrade that is not visible in wargear. Tau have team leaders I know, but it is cleaner that way. Tau also should not bother with imperial-style ten models w/specials units. Since they use auxiliaries for things they do not normally do, it cannot hurt to have a power weapon in there.

Gue'shas Auxiliaries - 90 points (Troop Choice)
Gue'shas'la 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+
Gue'shas'ui 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+

Story
Occasionally, seditious portions of the Imperial Space Marines have seduced entire squads to the greater good. Bold Tau hormone therapies break the marines of their previous indoctrination, and they embrace the martial codes of the fire warrior cadres. These Gue'shas (Human Warriors) are brought into the fold and retrained to be some of the most powerful infantry the Tau can field in battle. Although their usage is kept discreet in order to
keep from drawing the Imperium's ire, they are deployed on massive campaigns where the sight of them fighting for the Tau is enough for some Imperial Worlds to instantly turn over to their side.

Unit Composition
-One Gue'shas'ui and three gue'shas'la
Unit Type
-Infantry

Wargear
-Power Armor
-Pulse Rifle
-Pulse Pistol
-Assault grenades
-Shield Generator (Gue'shas'ui only)

Special Rules
-Traitors (Although the humans who have joined the Tau empire bear no ill-will towards their former compatriots, the same can not be said of Imperial troops fighting the auxiliaries. Imperial troops will always hit a Gue'shas on a roll of 3+ in close combat, regardless of relative Weapon Skill.)
-The Greater Truth (If a Gue'vessa unit is within 6" of a Gue'shas unit, they may replace their leadership value with the Gue'shas's.)

Options
-Any two models in the unit may exchange their pulse rifle for
-a flamer or burst cannon for +5 points
-a fusion blaster, plasma rifle, or missile pod for +10 points
- a power weapon for +15 points

-the unit may take jump packs and change their type from infantry to jump infantry for 50 points

-For +90 points, the squad may include a second unit with identical options to the one above. They deploy at the same time and may start the game embarked in the same transport, but are otherwise treated as completely separate units.

Dedicated Transport
The Gue'shas squad may select a Devilfish Trooper Carrier as a Dedicated Transport without using an FOC slot.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Oh. This is an interesting problem. They could use a little more tau weirdness and better interaction with space marine conventions. The sixteenth point of each model is attributable to the free upgrade weapons that tactical squads get, and veteran sergeants are automatic to avoid having an upgrade that is not visible in wargear. Tau have team leaders I know, but it is cleaner that way. Tau also should not bother with imperial-style ten models w/specials units. Since they use auxiliaries for things they do not normally do, it cannot hurt to have a power weapon in there.

Gue'shas Auxiliaries - 90 points (Troop Choice)
Gue'shas'la 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+
Gue'shas'ui 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+

Story
Occasionally, seditious portions of the Imperial Space Marines have seduced entire squads to the greater good. Bold Tau hormone therapies break the marines of their previous indoctrination, and they embrace the martial codes of the fire warrior cadres. These Gue'shas (Human Warriors) are brought into the fold and retrained to be some of the most powerful infantry the Tau can field in battle. Although their usage is kept discreet in order to
keep from drawing the Imperium's ire, they are deployed on massive campaigns where the sight of them fighting for the Tau is enough for some Imperial Worlds to instantly turn over to their side.

Unit Composition
-One Gue'shas'ui and three gue'shas'la
Unit Type
-Infantry

Wargear
-Power Armor
-Pulse Rifle
-Pulse Pistol
-Assault grenades
-Shield Generator (Gue'shas'ui only)

Special Rules
-Traitors (Although the humans who have joined the Tau empire bear no ill-will towards their former compatriots, the same can not be said of Imperial troops fighting the auxiliaries. Imperial troops will always hit a Gue'shas on a roll of 3+ in close combat, regardless of relative Weapon Skill.)
-The Greater Truth (If a Gue'vessa unit is within 6" of a Gue'shas unit, they may replace their leadership value with the Gue'shas's.)

Options
-Any two models in the unit may exchange their pulse rifle for
-a flamer or burst cannon for +5 points
-a fusion blaster, plasma rifle, or missile pod for +10 points
- a power weapon for +15 points

-the unit may take jump packs and change their type from infantry to jump infantry for 50 points

-For +90 points, the squad may include a second unit with identical options to the one above. They deploy at the same time and may start the game embarked in the same transport, but are otherwise treated as completely separate units.

Dedicated Transport
The Gue'shas squad may select a Devilfish Trooper Carrier as a Dedicated Transport without using an FOC slot.

I actually really like that, I'm not privy to Imperial organization honestly lol

Sadly, there is a slight hitch. I think. Tau do not allow actual members of the Tau Empire, native or not, to field 'heavy' weapons. Which I argue are your Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, and in a way, Shield Generators. I really wouldn't guess on the Flamer, it might not count. The exception to this is if they are a non-Empire-member unit, so just an ally, because then their organization is not up to Tau leaders but the allied leaders. In short, gue'vessa can bring whatever, but your proposed gue'shas should(keyword should, open to debate) not be able to. This is simply part of the way Tau issue gear to experience levels/military ranks. When your Gue'shas'la become Gue'shas'vre, they would likely be permitted the same use of battlesuits and whatnot as well as the weapons mounted thereon as any other Fire caste member. But not before. Those above captured/liberated weapons would likely be distributed to the upper ranks, not back to the gue'shas, they can not 'own' them in a communist like economy, they belong to the empire. Also the squad size of most units is determined by the possible transport, so bump the up to 6 minimum and 12 max per squad for Devilfish, totally legit.

Note the Kroot are an allied race, kind of members in name only. They don't carry any Tau style military rank like shas' or 'ui. They're just Kroot Packs! They get some tech exchange, but not a whole lot. Just getting ONE Tau rifle is rare for them. Tau don't just load up anyone who comes along afterall. That could end real badly. They're idealist, not naive. The same 'seggregation' would be in place for the Space Marines, just as much as it is for the Imperial Guard regiments left in the Damocles Crusades. Not to say don't do it. Just be mindful of your continuity bros.

It's important to note that this gear issue method forces a teamwork nature to grow so that they can further emphasize the importance of the Greater Good. Since your Shas'la don't have target specific weapons they NEED to coordinate with the units that have them, who in turn are covered and supported by the many small arms the Shas'la bring. The many before the one before the many again. It's very in line with their societal views. "You must prove to be a worthy soldier with little, before earning much" sort of thing.

Now IF you said that an entire unit was composed of Human and Tau members. It could be normal Firewarrior unit that has BONDED IN the humans to them. The bonded humans would then arguably hold sufficient rank/citizenship status by right of what amounts to 'marriage' to get issued the STANDARD Tau Firewarrior load out. Thats one of about a hundred, I'm sure, legit ways you could run it.

And I play Tau almost exclusively. So I should be one of the first to ask for these guys. But I'd rather have like 11pt Guardsmen with Tau gear, easier to blend into my play style or what not. You have a unit that I think is TOO good on the whole here (BS 4, Gun ST5/AP5+, AS3+, LD9, what the hell is that other then amazing?) . How would it not just steamroll everyone. But I'm not worried about that. I'm worried that it has a fluff and battlefield role identity crisis. I'll have to spend some time thinking of where and how I'd use these guys I mean specifically. Lastly, hormone therapy? Really? How did you hold a Marine down long enough to pull that off? They really only take willing members into the Empire, ... or do they?

But hey, don't mind me. I'm just text on a screen to anyone who reads this! Keep cooking bros! Love and Peace!

KnuckleWolf wrote:
Sadly, there is a slight hitch. I think. Tau do not allow actual members of the Tau Empire, native or not, to field 'heavy' weapons. Which I argue are your Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, and in a way, Shield Generators. I really wouldn't guess on the Flamer, it might not count. The exception to this is if they are a non-Empire-member unit, so just an ally, because then their organization is not up to Tau leaders but the allied leaders. In short, gue'vessa can bring whatever, but your proposed gue'shas should(keyword should, open to debate) not be able to. This is simply part of the way Tau issue gear to experience levels/military ranks. When your Gue'shas'la become Gue'shas'vre, they would likely be permitted the same use of battlesuits and whatnot as well as the weapons mounted thereon as any other Fire caste member. But not before. Those above captured/liberated weapons would likely be distributed to the upper ranks, not back to the gue'shas, they can not 'own' them in a communist like economy, they belong to the empire. Also the squad size of most units is determined by the possible transport, so bump the up to 6 minimum and 12 max per squad for Devilfish, totally legit.

Note the Kroot are an allied race, kind of members in name only. They don't carry any Tau style military rank like shas' or 'ui. They're just Kroot Packs! They get some tech exchange, but not a whole lot. Just getting ONE Tau rifle is rare for them. Tau don't just load up anyone who comes along afterall. That could end real badly. They're idealist, not naive. The same 'seggregation' would be in place for the Space Marines, just as much as it is for the Imperial Guard regiments left in the Damocles Crusades. Not to say don't do it. Just be mindful of your continuity bros.

It's important to note that this gear issue method forces a teamwork nature to grow so that they can further emphasize the importance of the Greater Good. Since your Shas'la don't have target specific weapons they NEED to coordinate with the units that have them, who in turn are covered and supported by the many small arms the Shas'la bring. The many before the one before the many again. It's very in line with their societal views. "You must prove to be a worthy soldier with little, before earning much" sort of thing.

Now IF you said that an entire unit was composed of Human and Tau members. It could be normal Firewarrior unit that has BONDED IN the humans to them. The bonded humans would then arguably hold sufficient rank/citizenship status by right of what amounts to 'marriage' to get issued the STANDARD Tau Firewarrior load out. Thats one of about a hundred, I'm sure, legit ways you could run it.

And I play Tau almost exclusively. So I should be one of the first to ask for these guys. But I'd rather have like 11pt Guardsmen with Tau gear, easier to blend into my play style or what not. You have a unit that I think is TOO good on the whole here (BS 4, Gun ST5/AP5+, AS3+, LD9, what the hell is that other then amazing?) . How would it not just steamroll everyone. But I'm not worried about that. I'm worried that it has a fluff and battlefield role identity crisis. I'll have to spend some time thinking of where and how I'd use these guys I mean specifically. Lastly, hormone therapy? Really? How did you hold a Marine down long enough to pull that off? They really only take willing members into the Empire, ... or do they?

But hey, don't mind me. I'm just text on a screen to anyone who reads this! Keep cooking bros! Love and Peace!

Supposedly with the latest editions of Tau lore that are rolling out from GW they've been pumping in a lot of "mind control" stuff into the Tau to try to make them less "good" and more subversive/brain washy. There's a mini-story about the Tau landing on a planet and convincing the population that the nearby Space Marines are traitor Marines or something and in turn the Space Marines end up exterminatus'ing the planet after a long drawn out war, buying the Tau enough time to attack another world. They also seem to suggest the Vespid are not fighting for the Tau on their own will, but that the hive leads are controlled by their Helmets and in turn they get the lesser units to follow them.

The idea of the Gue'shas is something along the lines of:
-Find injured abandoned space marines.
-Take them back, heal their wounds, but while you're doing that subvert/wipe their minds, equip them with potential mind control helmets.
-???
-Profit!

The idea is that these are new men, who's only purpose is to help subvert Imperial Guard fringe colonies who believe the sons of the Emperor to the be the heralds of the Emperor himself, and as such if they're fighting for the Tau, they should be too. Making them join up with them against the invaders. The Gue'Shas would, of course, be run through intense training and reprogramming by the Tau to only believe, and only fight, against the Greater Good, and maybe themselves be supplemented with memories to think that the Emperor has given them this sworn duty and that all the other chapters have gone heretical. I'd see no quarrel with arming them with heavy weapons because, although they have some free will, they will be under safeguard from mind control helmets, years of memory implants, tons of various chemical balances, etc. that will force them into the will of the Empire and against the Imperium. Unlike the Kroot, who are purely free will, but rather savage and less likely to understand/use their weapons properly.

Also if you're going to turn the Space Marines against the Emperor, you better give them some damn good weapons. Although I could put a "Water Caste Controller" in the squad and add some custom rules to it to try to weaken the squad by giving them a "mini-Ethereal" kinda thing that if it dies could cause issues, maybe even akin to 'nids "go rampant".

The Gue'vesa btw do use the ranks of the Tau ('la and 'ui) in their old rule set, so I carried over that pattern for sergeants etc. in this one.

Don't forget to give them some sort of pistol weapons as well, so they an shot, then assault. I think that it looks really good, maybe just increase the points value a bit IMHO. Besides that its great.

We will at the end of the day, agree to disagree, and acknowledge that the universe is open to interpretation. I'll trust what you say about the newer lore coming from GW. (I don't keep up with it till its in codex mostly. ) As an oppinion, from a certain standpoint, making every race in the game 'bad guys' is not good design if you want to sell to every, possible, potential, player. I personally, with the drastic changes of sixth edition as the start of my frustration(whole different story, not going there), would likely throw in the towel on the game if it turned out that my only 'good' guys with a tricksy manipulative shadowy aspect that every great power needs to survive, turned out to be just a cover for an entirely corrupting presence striving for [Star Trek] Borg-like control. I just couldn't do it. I'm a nice guy. I like being on the 'good' guy side. Call me a strange 40k player, but whatever. As an aside, getting your enemies to fight each other to buy you time on other fronts is an ancient trick. Even if your using mind altering technology to get the job done. Technology is just the tool you use to do that, like a diplomat or a spy is the tool to use today for that job. Basic black ops stuff. I see where your coming from, but maybe not a great example of their subversiveness. More just an example of their good strategy. But I get what your saying. I just hope it isn't that bad for my sake.

And Vespid. Ohhhh you Vespid loonies you. Yes there is a whole crap ton of hinting that the Communion Helm is a mind control device. But I just can't make that leap. Always felt it just allowed easy non-warp-based-telepathic communication through the use of bio-technology to relay the thoughts and emotions. Allowing them to convert to the Greater Good at the speed of thought, making it look like mind control. Consider: If one of these helmets ever malfunctioned in any way and was a mind control device, there would be trouble. The Strain leader, would tear it off with their ridiculous claws , shoot it with their blaster , tell all his buddies to liberate the others , cascade effect to whatever you want. And the Tau would be all like "dang" There would be a story about that some where. As they say 'IMHO', it doesn't seem like a great idea for something to rely on when even your own guys are using things like EMP grenades nearby. Yes I'm sure you can come up with a million fail-safes, but there is always that odd chance that it breaks, and then what?

Then there's the problem with finding 'injured' and 'abandoned' Space Marines. These guys, after all their augmentations, can float unprotected through the dead of space, for a century or more, sleeping only half their brain at a time,(SM Codex, pg 10-11) using the other half to think of how great the Emperor is, and a million new ways to kill a heretic or xeno. And somewhere, there's another Space Marine Chapter who finds out about these heretic Gue'shas walking around with xeno tainted Gene Seed that you thought was 'abandoned', and then that Exterminatus is aimed right at you. Seems terri-bad. If your going to convert them, Its not going to be while healing their wounds. The jerks instantly generate scar tissue over even mortal wounds for pete-sakes. Anastesia? Nope, their super glands took those out. Maybe if you revived them after a battle. One where they didn't just nuke the world right before defeat. Now THAT would be cool. Assuming they didn't think when they woke up that they were resurrected by the Emperors sheer will. Just think about it. If we're going to do it, lets do it right and awesomely eh?

And I had to dig a little to find it, but the Seeker Missile entry in the Tau codex on page 30 says plain as day: "...Fire caste doctrine does not allow for organic, integrated heavy weapons in Fire Warrior teams." If your marines are truly adopted in to the Fire caste, they are screwed. BUT! You could give them Markerlights! Which are way better for a Tau army anyway. It has nothing to do with who they are or even free will/fear of revolt, it has everything to do with who's giving them the orders. They'll have all the firepower they need right behind them on the top of their Hammerhead tank. Kroot don't have heavy guns because they'd rather just eat you once they kill you. Battle cannons would spoil a lot of meals for them.

But we can talk this out bit by bit. Got to go for now! Peace Bro

Those weapons feel very expensive on 16 point marines that know fear. Especially those grenades.
You need to remember that their awesome str 5 gun is being replaced, the cost should be factored into the upgrade, given it was factored into their profile.

Pulse Rifles / Carbines are worth 2pts each, and these guys are basically 1W, better shooting, better assaulting, better ld battlesuits that can't move in the assault phase, for 9pts less, with more feet on the ground.
19pts cheaper than BS4 suits.

OR, alternatively using a Firewarrior as a base - for +6pts a model, you get +2WS, +1BS, +1Str, +1T, +2I, +1Ld and +1 to their save. (+9 to stats overall)
AND A character with another +1A and +1Ld on top.
For 15pts over a Firewarrior, a Battlesuit only gives +2Str, +1T, +1W, +1A and a 1 better save. (+6 to stats overall)

The weapons upgrades are costed at the same as the more expensive battlesuits.

By rights they should be a 0-1 OR elites unit anyway, or there'd be no point in taking anything other than that minimum 1+ Fire Warrior squad, you'd just take these guys.

Was looking through the 'dex. Closest thing to the gue'shas stat wise is a XV25 stealth suit. Those amazing dudes, after stealth, and jet packs, are 30pts a pop, plus more if you load them.

I say this on a generalized idea of rough shooting comparison, and armor capability only. I feel like I'd be cheating if I wasn't paying like 20-23 pts each. Ovion was able to break them down better and i believe he made some great points. (I'm so PUNNY! Points! Get it? Bwahaha)

See, this is why I posted this here I'm new to 40k so I was using the SM units as a Template.

Let's look at it moreso like this. Let's write a balanced "Gue'vesa" based codex for auxillary forces that the Tau can take using allied rules.

So for example:
-Space Marines Tacticals or Normal that are used by the Tau
-Imperial Guard regiments
-Modified Heavy Weapons (IE: Normal Imp GUard weapons with Tau Heavy bits)
-Potentially a human-piloted battlesuit.

So custom HQ/Elite/Troop/Fast Attack/etc. choices. Devilfish would probably still be fieldable by them.

Aren't battle suits good because they are a mobile unit that takes a whole whack of special weapons? This seems like a totally unfair comparison. These guys are a normal tactical squad with tau guns, which are a little better than their old ones.

I don't think I'd mind so much if necron heavy destroyers suddenly lost a couple points of weapons skill and strength. You know, I don't think it would have much impact on the way I used them at all!

They've lost 3 incredible useful rules, KNF, combat tactics and combat squads, and really, are tau special weapons so much more worthy than the ones in the back of the imperial codexes that they should cost so much?

I'm all for giving them a new slot in the codex, or giving them a 0-1 troop place, but I say keep them scoring, that's the main idea behind them, and it sorta fits their fluff. If they were elites, I'd be sad about the loss of a battlesuit unit, but I'd be happy for a really robust scoring unit.... If it weren't so easy to find room in the extra chart for a scoring ally.

The point is, the Tau book is really old, you need balance new units against what's currently in the book, or you suddenly start invalidating other units. It's that or you need to rebalance the entire rest of the codex and ultimately, this way is easier.

Once the new codex is out, then it might be different and you can revisit old units, currently you have to work against what we've got.

I mean, I'm debating trying a simple 10% cost reduction of everything in the Tau book and seeing how that works. (So Fire Warriors 9pts each, hammerheads 81pts base, etc.) and I'll happily post how that works in here as well as my own extended-codex book. but until then...

You really think 10 marines with one special weapon as a 0-1 or elite choice will completely invalidate another selection?

You basically play tau for the battlesuits, tactical squads tend not to be something folks write home about. Maybe these one would be exciting, but they are proposed as a rare novelty sorta ally for funzies.

You basically play tau for the battlesuits

Could you please elaborate?

P.S. how do you use this quote thing so it cites the original author?

There is a quote button on every post. I would make you a screencap but I think you will figure it out.

Like other auxiliaries, marines can be used to do things tau do not. That is why I put them in units of four models with options for power weapons or fusion, plasma, et al. They are weird little shock units, instead of the rifle infantry that tactical squads would be if fire warriors didn't do the job already. After buying upgrades, they are not so cheap after all.

One to three separate units of four in a single squad mean they can all plausibly arrive in a devilfish, and fits compact and specialized mode of the tau empire codex. Considering how few marines convert, they had may as well use small units.

I do prefer the idea of small shock units of 4 sets honestly. Having 4 units with Rifles, able to swap one for a heavy weapon or sergeant seems better to me, because, as was said, full regiments of space marines turning is far less likely, as well as the fact these small specialized squads are more fitting to the team-setup of Tau.

I like the four man squad thing too. Could you then say that as a 0-1 Elite choice, you can take 1-3 squads of these gue'shas (borrowing from the sniper drone team selection rules), One of the teams may/must select a a gue'shas'ui. The full formations choice may include a Devilfish? (Kind of a blend between 'combat squads' rule and tau organizational logistics)

I'm still really against a heavy weapon in any Tau infantry squad. I'd rather see that each sub-squad could/does have a markerlight, making the whole unit of units a step between a standard firewarrior squad and pathfinder team.

I like the 4 man squads, but as I said the idea of having a Water Caste "Controller" could work too, then if he dies they could "go rogue".

How about instead of a water caste, do a 'low level' ethereal (aun'la I guess?) caste as the sergeant for the aforementioned three squad setup. Then do an extended 'coherency' thing where each squad had to maintain visibility to the ethereal or stay with in like six inches or some such. So then theres a tactical positioning challenge. And have a ethereal effect that only affects the marines, but isn't enough to 'bother' the rest of your troops, Insert fluff explanation here. Maybe hes an ethereal converted to believe in the Emperor while still serving the Greater Good. To the marines, he'd be like a chaplain. There is a very militant side to the Ethereals in the canon story. Namely the one who defended a temple for an entire night from orks alone with only a Honor Blade.

KnuckleWolf wrote:
How about instead of a water caste, do a 'low level' ethereal (aun'la I guess?) caste as the sergeant for the aforementioned three squad setup. Then do an extended 'coherency' thing where each squad had to maintain visibility to the ethereal or stay with in like six inches or some such. So then theres a tactical positioning challenge. And have a ethereal effect that only affects the marines, but isn't enough to 'bother' the rest of your troops, Insert fluff explanation here. Maybe hes an ethereal converted to believe in the Emperor while still serving the Greater Good. To the marines, he'd be like a chaplain. There is a very militant side to the Ethereals in the canon story. Namely the one who defended a temple for an entire night from orks alone with only a Honor Blade.

Well as was said, if they're going more mind control/subversion routes with the Tau these days, it'd make sense. The Ethereals have always had that.. wickedness to them, like they were up to no good and GW has foreshadowed it heavily but never said anything.

So a low ranking Ethereal that controls a small squad of subverted marines would be cool to me. 4 marines + 1 Ethereal, you can swap one of the Marines for a heavy weapon or a sergeant.

News flash! Agreeing to disagree continues to spiral on within Tau space. LOL.

LOL-d-LOL Wickedness, pfft. I'll shoot my own darn ethereal if he turns out to be a 'bad guy'. Logical philosophers to a fault, maybe. Political geniuses, yes. Smoothe talkers for sure. But wicked subversive fiends? Not in my universe!!! They are inspirational leaders enough to guide a whole race! LOL-d-LOL

Dumb question I know here, but in all seriousness. If you want heavy gear in your squads, why are you playing Tau instead of say Imperial guard? You have the right to not answer of course, or to answer anyway you see fit. I've seen your gallery pics and they sure look like cool models. Love the smoothed helmet idea. So I'm guessing just aesthetics and homebrew lore? But humor me if you will. It's just that if you play any race at all you have to accept the drawbacks that come with the advantages. And 6th ed 'allies' let you cover your missing bases. So, forgive me if this is classed as this 'trolling' I hear so much about. But it might help me understand the goal of the squad more.

I think this falls solidly under the 'Made cool looking models. Decided want rules for them' category.

 Ovion wrote:
I think this falls solidly under the 'Made cool looking models. Decided want rules for them' category.

Pretty much.