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I have a friend who is writing fluff for an empire he created called the Stardust Empire. It's supposed to be an ally of the Imperium, but is extremely xenos collaborationist and their leader claims to be a brother of the Emperor, and to have made many diplomatic agreements with him.

I was thinking something like the Stardust Empire gets discovered and invaded by the Sturmkrieg and Volianvan, who have the goal of removing all xenos, ending collaboration, and replacing the leadership. A lot of other stuff is pretty ingrained, and it might be better to work with Dark Emperor and see how he could change some of his fluff. Some stuff, like having Orks, Tau, and IG in Space Marine chapters might need to be totally reorganized, and maybe have them in supporting detachments for the chapters.

On background:

There seems to be some dispute about whether the Emperor can have a brother, but I'm also wondering if he could have made any of the agreements that are described in the Stardust Empire fluff.

He also has Chaos Space Marines that no longer worship Chaos, and instead worship the Dark Emperor. Is the possible fluff wise, and would the Imperium allow it?

Almost everything in your fluff seems extremely out of place in 40k. I would take your backstory to a new universe.

 ph34r wrote:
Almost everything in your fluff seems extremely out of place in 40k. I would take your backstory to a new universe.

Pretty much this...

You have a friend....and the friend is you...and about Emp's brother - just leave it in your head....

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
He also has Chaos Space Marines that no longer worship Chaos, and instead worship the Dark Emperor. Is the possible fluff wise, and would the Imperium allow it?

Never.

The fluff for the Stardust Empire, and especially the "Dark Emperor" is borderline troll-levels of Mary Sue, asides from being an affront to writing, none of it meshes with established 40k lore.

 ph34r wrote:
Almost everything in your fluff seems extremely out of place in 40k. I would take your backstory to a new universe.

I didn't write this, except for the parts about declaring war on it to wipe out the heresy. Should have made that clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FinalAnswer wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
He also has Chaos Space Marines that no longer worship Chaos, and instead worship the Dark Emperor. Is the possible fluff wise, and would the Imperium allow it?

Never.

The fluff for the Stardust Empire, and especially the "Dark Emperor" is borderline troll-levels of Mary Sue, asides from being an affront to writing, none of it meshes with established 40k lore.

It is a very serious problem. There have been times where I've thought I could just rephrase what he's doing or get him to make a few small changes, and it would be workable, but then I read into way more of the ridiculousness and realize that isn't going to work. TBH, I don't think he's really aware how ridiculous this is. I've explained the inconsistencies to him on occasion, and he acknowledges that other people have problems with it, but then he says "and then I explain to them how it works and it makes sense."

He also has problems in the collaborative fiction where we can't really add his stories into the campaign and greater fanon because they're too ridiculous. He's written stories where the leader of the Sturmkrieg Sector just gets up, flies across the galaxy, and enters the Stardust Empire, just so he can have some near 1v1 defeat with the Dark Emperor and come to some sort of understanding. He recently wrote a story where Sturmkrieg and Volianvan surrender to the Dark Emperor.

I think that really the only way for this to work at all is if the Stardust Empire is either undiscovered by the Imperium (unlikely, as it's in the Segmentum Solar) or it didn't exist in its current state at the formation of the Imperium and they haven't had contact since. The stuff about being allies and having made all these deals with the Emperor, being a brother, and having fought together would have to be DPRK levels of wildly exaggerated propaganda. Even then, Orks and Tyranids would certainly need to go. Tau could possibly stay as it's possible an expedition made contact with them and brought them back. Chaos Space Marines could be mercenaries.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
...then he says "and then I explain to them how it works and it makes sense."

It does not work nor does it make any sense. At all.

I'll stop here. If you can't say anything nice... and all that.

 DeffDred wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
...then he says "and then I explain to them how it works and it makes sense."

It does not work nor does it make any sense. At all.

I'll stop here. If you can't say anything nice... and all that.

I agree as well.

Some of the fluff borders many things that I classify as extremely cliche and over the top. Even for the 40k universe.

Sometimes its just best to let it go and just redo everything.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
...then he says "and then I explain to them how it works and it makes sense."

It does not work nor does it make any sense. At all.

I'll stop here. If you can't say anything nice... and all that.

I agree as well.

Some of the fluff borders many things that I classify as extremely cliche and over the top. Even for the 40k universe.

Sometimes its just best to let it go and just redo everything.

That's kind of what I'm thinking is going to have to happen. While I like to give people a free hand and not worry about the details of canon consistency, this is far too out there.

How about this: The Stardust Empire is a carefully constructed fictional world implemented with ancient and poorly understood VR technology. The fattest, dumbest, most socially inept scions of various noble houses are plugged into the simulation without their knowledge, so they can go on galaxy-spanning adventures with their Tyranid buddies and become BFFs with the Emperor's cooler brother. This effectively places them beyond the reach of rival dynasties, preventing them from being manipulated into betrayal or worse.

Bludbaff wrote:
How about this: The Stardust Empire is a carefully constructed fictional world implemented with ancient and poorly understood VR technology. The fattest, dumbest, most socially inept scions of various noble houses are plugged into the simulation without their knowledge, so they can go on galaxy-spanning adventures with their Tyranid buddies and become BFFs with the Emperor's cooler brother. This effectively places them beyond the reach of rival dynasties, preventing them from being manipulated into betrayal or worse.

Please be sarcasm....


But far to out there, I could barely read it, just seemed so... childish and 'I WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING AWESOME!'-y


Von Chogg

I have seen pictures of spandex wearing walmart customers that have a better fit than this piece of writing. In its current form it in no way fits the 40k universe.

My tip to make it fit better is, well, tell him to start over.

It makes a mockery of all fluff and wont ever fit, ever. Sorry

I think you need to show him the unanimous reactions of fellow 40k players from around the world here on Dakka. Maybe he might realize how completely off base everything he's trying to cram into the 40k universe is.

 Von Chogg wrote:

Bludbaff wrote:
How about this: The Stardust Empire is a carefully constructed fictional world implemented with ancient and poorly understood VR technology. The fattest, dumbest, most socially inept scions of various noble houses are plugged into the simulation without their knowledge, so they can go on galaxy-spanning adventures with their Tyranid buddies and become BFFs with the Emperor's cooler brother. This effectively places them beyond the reach of rival dynasties, preventing them from being manipulated into betrayal or worse.

Please be sarcasm....


But far to out there, I could barely read it, just seemed so... childish and 'I WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING AWESOME!'-y


Von Chogg

I'm sure that was sarcasm, but it would probably fit better...

Anyway, I have noticed that a lot of the writing quality was very poor. I did have a talk with him about that though, and it seems like he's starting to put in more effort. I've been trying to tactfully tell him that his story writing is horrendous from the fictional perspective, but that doesn't seem to meet with a lot of success. It does seem to have encouraged him to write stories instead of making up new space marine chapters all the time though.

It doesn't take a great writer just to put down a decent army/empire/sector backstory. Many of the articles that I or Lord Kesharq wrote aren't really great stories that people have a big incentive to read, but are there to provide information about our armies to people who are interested in the army/backstory. Even if he doesn't write something great, it doesn't have to be terrible or totally far out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ph34r wrote:
I think you need to show him the unanimous reactions of fellow 40k players from around the world here on Dakka. Maybe he might realize how completely off base everything he's trying to cram into the 40k universe is.

I've thought about doing that, but I get conflicted about it since I'm not sure how he'd react. While we're all pretty much entitled to make up our own story and it doesn't really need to please anyone but ourselves, it's good if it at least all fits within 40k, since that's the game we're playing together and helps the games seem more cinematic. The fact that he's writing it on the internet for other people to see though basically necessitates that it be something that other people would be interested in.

I think the reactions of people IRL could also be giving him a false sense that his fluff "works." I mentioned earlier that he said that a lot of people seem to acknowledge that his fluff makes sense after he explains it to them, but that's probably just agreement so he doesn't keep trying to explain it. I haven't been totally forward with him about it, but I think it might be good to let him know, obviously as friendly as possible.

Just show him this thread, who cares how he reacts?

This stuff is awful. Truly awful. It's irredeemable and irreparable.

 Omegus wrote:
Just show him this thread, who cares how he reacts?

This stuff is awful. Truly awful. It's irredeemable and irreparable.

You really think he isn't using this "friend" as himself?

Wow this was insanely bad. I hope for your sake that you don't let yourself be seen in public with the warp head who wrote this.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Just show him this thread, who cares how he reacts?

This stuff is awful. Truly awful. It's irredeemable and irreparable.

You really think he isn't using this "friend" as himself?

He actually isn't...I know the OP IRL, he's a nice dude who knows quite a bit about 40k. (To the OP - I'm Andrew, we've met a few times)

Then I find this a kind of silly thread - Like, does this dude know how to type ?

Hey now, he's either just being modest or a good friend. There are those who are stuck in their ways over a story they think is fantastic, I for one can vouch for this type of insanity. It's probably a major factor as to why I'm not a BL writer right now, I'm hung up on a piece of fiction I'd likely rather die than give up. However, even I play by (most) of the rules so I can continue to play the game, and 40k is full of weird rules the fannon has to at least loosely follow. If a writer can't follow them and instead chooses to go in a different direction entirely, power to them, just don't expect to call it 40k anymore because it really isn't.

Alright so to answer your question:

You technically can have a "Stardust Empire" that was in so much envisioned by 'The Dark Emperor", but it's extremely difficult. Here's how I'd explain it.

The Stardust Empire lies upon the South Eastern Fringe, and was allotted to a powerful Lord who was estranged to the Imperium for his claims to be the Brother of the Omnipotent and only Emperor Omnessiah. The Empire was neglected throughout the Horus Heresy when this so called Dark Emperor awaited the call from who he believed to be his brother. The call went unanswered over the vast distance of the galaxy, and some whispered that it was ignored entirely. In the wake of the Great Heresy however, whole battlegroups were sent to this forlorn place in an effort to reconnect it to the desperate Imperium. They were not seen again after great warp storms engulfed much of the Stardust Empire for almost five thousand years. During the Age of Apostasy, ancient ships and armies appeared across the galaxy, pursuing their own agenda with an unspeakable ally - Orks aboard great Space Hulks- acting as guides to the renegade forces to plunder the wealth of those responsible for their Dark Emperor's abandonment. Betrayal as it was to the Imperial Creed, it seemed the Dark Emperor was not entirely renegade either, His clandestine Empire serving on more than one occasion to the credit of Rogue Traders and Inquisitors alike, acting as a selfish Legion of the Damned and appearing only to secure the victory of an ally of connivance before deploying his forces elsewhere to capture his true objective. In time, the Stardust Empire may have become an uneasy ally to the radical factions within the Imperium, but it forever alienated itself to the High Lords of Terra when the Dark Emperor took on an alliance of desperation with the Tau in the face of the Tyranid swarm creeping from the void.
Even more appallingly, the Stardust Empire has even managed to employ a fully corrupted Chapter of Chaos Marines whom they have sheltered since their mutations they sustained from the Warp Storms that separated the Empire from the Imperium. They are called Upsilon Delta, a breakaway faction of the Alpha Legion, who seem nonplussed to the idea of Chaos Gods, but seem to not actively worship them as well. The Dark Emperor is an ally of the Imperium held at arms length, burned from scripture, sanctioned, and branded as heretical, his influence is undeniable, his Empire's power as much a threat to itself as the Imperium it distantly resides within. To be sure, the Stardust Empire is a strange and silly place to which most an Imperial Citizen dare not venture in the face of so many unlikely and often unbelievable races coexisting under the stern gaze of the Dark Emperor. Those who have ventured to the outer rim of the galaxy bring back such great tales borne of this mysterious place, many Inquisitors have been forced to expunge those who ask the persistent question,

"Could it be true? Could the Emperor truly have living Brethern?"

Whatever the answer may be, it is clear that the powers that be will never allow light to be shed on such a heretical nation. Already, the coveted name of the Dark Emperor is under the sights of unswerving and insufferable Inquisition. Detachments of Strumkrieg and Volianvan war fighters have been issued a single order: Destroy it all. The Dark Emperor is henceforth trapped with a heartbreaking decision. To ensure the survival of his Empire, he must forsake the Imperium and forevermore become a reluctant enemy to whom he believes is his brother's realm, or, to appease the unstoppable inertia that is the Imperium's unbending culture, he must take his own life and allow the Stardust Empire to be expunged.

Note - Oh by the God Emperor, what have I done validating this?!

Note II - As long as your friend firmly understands that this Dark Emperor will likely (and I cannot stress enough) NEVER be a functioning part of the Imperium apart from helping from the sidelines, he can logically, albeit begrudgingly, use what I wrote as fannon.

Thanks for that. I'll let him know. The only issue is that his empire is in the Segmentum Solar, but hopefully that would be too important.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Thanks for that. I'll let him know. The only issue is that his empire is in the Segmentum Solar, but hopefully that would be too important.

that needs to change, go to an unimportant and unvital area. Segmentum solar is by far the most the most protected area in the imperium probably not the best place to use.

Yeah, he's definitely going to have to get rid of the nids, Nids actively protecting anything aside from a synapse creature and a synapse creature desiring to do anything more but nom nom nom to sustain the Tyranids as a whole?

Also, if he wants Tau allies, move his empire perhaps on the eastern fringe of the galaxy so it's relatively close to the Tau empire so it becomes reasonable that some minor breakaway Tau faction(s) would become incorporated into his empire.

What I think his "dark emperor" should be: A leader of tremendous charisma, of tactically and strategically brilliant soldier/warrior, of immense strength, power, and longevity from which a rumor was created suggesting that he had close ties to/worked closely with the emperor once upon a time, perhaps even related. The truth (if he so desires, could be another rumor and the truth be wrapped up in mystery): He's the Primarch of the Forgotten, once swallowed up by the warp only to be spat out fairly recently in some remote part of the galaxy. Perhaps he refuses to join the Imperium as it is not the Imperium that his father (The Emperor) had wished to create, and is trying to build an empire that is more akin to The Emperor's dream.However he is reluctant to abandon the Imperium and mankind as they are kin and so he goes out of his way to assist the Imperium when he can. The reason as to why he allies with xenos: he, unlike his father, sees hope for the galaxy in other races as well and strives for cooperation (as much as possible, probably make a loose alliance with orks somehow, perhaps something similar to the fluff of the Knights Inductor - a homebrew chapter - would suit his needs) against chaos and other forces that aren't so compromising/cooperative. The Dark Emperor being the Primarch of the Forgotten would also explain as to why he has access to Space Marines.

 King Pariah wrote:
Yeah, he's definitely going to have to get rid of the nids, Nids actively protecting anything aside from a synapse creature and a synapse creature desiring to do anything more but nom nom nom to sustain the Tyranids as a whole?

Also, if he wants Tau allies, move his empire perhaps on the eastern fringe of the galaxy so it's relatively close to the Tau empire so it becomes reasonable that some minor breakaway Tau faction(s) would become incorporated into his empire.

What I think his "dark emperor" should be: A leader of tremendous charisma, of tactically and strategically brilliant soldier/warrior, of immense strength, power, and longevity from which a rumor was created suggesting that he had close ties to/worked closely with the emperor once upon a time, perhaps even related. The truth (if he so desires, could be another rumor and the truth be wrapped up in mystery): He's the Primarch of the Forgotten, once swallowed up by the warp only to be spat out fairly recently in some remote part of the galaxy. Perhaps he refuses to join the Imperium as it is not the Imperium that his father (The Emperor) had wished to create, and is trying to build an empire that is more akin to The Emperor's dream.However he is reluctant to abandon the Imperium and mankind as they are kin and so he goes out of his way to assist the Imperium when he can. The reason as to why he allies with xenos: he, unlike his father, sees hope for the galaxy in other races as well and strives for cooperation (as much as possible, probably make a loose alliance with orks somehow, perhaps something similar to the fluff of the Knights Inductor - a homebrew chapter - would suit his needs) against chaos and other forces that aren't so compromising/cooperative. The Dark Emperor being the Primarch of the Forgotten would also explain as to why he has access to Space Marines.

This is pretty good. Thanks.

I think the Tau could be worked by being brought in from an expedition, so they don't necessarily have to be so close. It's possible, but more of a stretch, that Tyranids could be mind controlled or have phenomenal or other biological control.

As for the Imperium, Dark Emperor wants it to be so his character wants to be an ally of the Imperium, so it could be slightly modified that he wants to be an ally, and possibly at one point was, but now the Imperium is declaring war after seeing what is going on in the Stardust Empire.

When you first posted this fluff a while back, I commented on it. I stand by those comments.

There is quite literally no way to save this fluff or even make it fit short of a complete 100% overhaul. In which case, it wouldn't resemble the original fluff at all, and therefore not worth saving. Your best bet is just to scrap the idea entirely and start up with something different.

If you want a good idea of how to do some kind of Marine controlled sector gone rogue, read the Badab War books from FW. This whole 'Dark Emperor' nonsense seriously detracts from any remotely serious attempt at a fan made background. The collaboration of nearly every Xenos and ex-Imperial forces is also very hard to believe, and the fluff would be better off without it.

I genuinely don't see a way to fix it short of scrapping and going back to the drawing boards with something more plausible. Seriously, check out Lufgt Huron and his rebellion, get some ideas from there.

Dark Emperor...just say no.

 Blacksails wrote:
When you first posted this fluff a while back, I commented on it. I stand by those comments.

There is quite literally no way to save this fluff or even make it fit short of a complete 100% overhaul. In which case, it wouldn't resemble the original fluff at all, and therefore not worth saving. Your best bet is just to scrap the idea entirely and start up with something different.

If you want a good idea of how to do some kind of Marine controlled sector gone rogue, read the Badab War books from FW. This whole 'Dark Emperor' nonsense seriously detracts from any remotely serious attempt at a fan made background. The collaboration of nearly every Xenos and ex-Imperial forces is also very hard to believe, and the fluff would be better off without it.

I genuinely don't see a way to fix it short of scrapping and going back to the drawing boards with something more plausible. Seriously, check out Lufgt Huron and his rebellion, get some ideas from there.

Dark Emperor...just say no.

I remember. I agree that it's going to have to be something major. At this point, I think it would be easiest to delete and completely rewrite articles. The only thing to save would be the general concept of a rogue empire within the Imperium, without the levels of Mary Sue, and with the admission that there is not a snowball's chance in Hell that the Imperium would continue to be an ally with it. The brother of the Emperor thing would possibly be savable only as a lie or delusion made by the Dark Emperor Omega. At this point, I think it would work better as a delusion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like your suggestion of the Badab war. I think that's pretty similar, or would at least make a good basis.

The name of the 'Dark Emperor' is a really poor choice. Make him a chaos lord with a chaos name, rather than 'I am the DARK (!!!!111!!!) Emperor!'. Get some inspiration from the Badab war and similar campaigns. A rogue chapter (or two, three) fighting a campaign on the fringes of the galaxy become disillusioned/find a rare xenos artefact/tainted by the warp/wrongfully accused by the Inquisition/what have you, and claim a system in their name as a separate entity. Go from there.

But keep in mind normal allegiances and various factions. Mercenaries exist, but not in the quantities or level of integration suggested in your fluff. Don't copy the Badab war by any means, but use it for some inspiration.

Yeah, the names Dark Emperor and Stardust Empire need to go. Dark just makes it sound too unimaginative, and Dondrekhan says that Stardust sounds like a bad 1980s science fiction movie.

I just want to add that I too feel a little dirty validating this lol

but here goes!

Assuming we're going to keep the "Dark Emperor" name
what if he was an alpha level psyker, Alpha levels are the most powerful and dangerous psykers and have been known to enslave populaces and destroy titans with but a glance
maybe it's possible that he could be on the most powerful ever encountered and he dreams of uniting all races under one banner

With the Imperial Guard that would be easy..using his psychic powers on normal humans is cake walk, With the Marines and Chaos Marines might be a little tougher but no impossible ...the Chaos Marines could even be followers if he were of the evil or even "neutral" persuasion

with the Orks I don't think it would be that hard to control them either, Orks are a very psychic race if a powerful enough psyker could use glamours on them ..maybe they see everyone around them as Orks and believe they're doing the will of an extremely powerful Brain Boy or Weird boy

with the Tau there is some speculation that they might be controlled by the Ethereals..and even though they have no known presence in the warp that could be used somehow?...I'm not that knowledgable in Tau fluff ...either that or they see every other race working together which goes with their greater good concept so they'd be like a pig in .....fudge... : I

for the Eldar you might use the same excuse as with the orks or they would be there for their own reasons, what are the reasons? who knows?
as for the Tyranids it's a stretch but he could have used his mind to tap into the Tyranid hive mind and become one with them

so to sum things up most if not all of the races could actually be slaves to an extremely powerful psyker...the cooperation is only a facade under a velvet fist of domination if you will

I suppose that's one way of shoe horning this all in

Edit: I also wanted to say kudos to you for being patient with a friend....but remember...friends don't let friends become mad prophets rambling about stardust empires