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11 points for a Stormtrooper with an AP3 gun? You're laughing.

Stormtroopers have the same stat lines as Sisters of Battle for good reason. A Standard Stormtrooper has the same training as a standard Battle Sister, so WS3/BS4 makes sense for them if it makes sense for Sisters. Once apon a time, Stormtroopers were the same price as Sisters, except they got their grenades for free (but their hellguns were only AP6). Now, Sisters are forced to buy their grenades and get a bolt pistol for free.

13 points per Sister, 14 points per Stormtrooper seems fair to me, and that's with their current statline.

Celetians are 3 points dearer than Battle Sisters and have +1 WS, A and Ld with identical equipment. So, I'd say that to give a Stormtrooper WS4 would probably make him 15 points (it's not worth a whole point, but when homebrewing you always round up) if he wasn't paying the Elite Slot tax.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
11 points for a Stormtrooper with an AP3 gun? You're laughing.

Stormtroopers have the same stat lines as Sisters of Battle for good reason. A Standard Stormtrooper has the same training as a standard Battle Sister, so WS3/BS4 makes sense for them if it makes sense for Sisters.

>Implying Sisters don't deserve WS 4.

if he wasn't paying the Elite Slot tax.

IG shouldn't get an "Elite Slot tax" considering all of our elite slots are second rate units. Storm Troopers? They are only really useful as a deepstriking suicide unit, if you want AP 3 take an LRBT it will be tougher, do more damage, and be cheaper 90% of the time. Ratlings? If you are trying to pick off an MEQ special character you will get about 1.5 precision shots, and maybe a wound. Ogryn? Paying 40 points (50 for the squad leader) for a unit with crappy morale that can be suffer ID from a str 10 weapon, and can't take power weapons. Marbo? Actually a pretty decent option, but you can only take one and all he really is is a demo charge that infiltrates to withing 1" of the enemy, and he can blow himself up with it.

Really IG elite slots are horrible (relatively at least), LRBT>Storm Troopers, Everything>Ratlings, and Rough Riders>Ogryn (and cost far less).

As for sisters costing less than storm troopers, the only real thing storm troopers have over sisters is an AP 3 gun, even then it has a pretty short range and is only strength 3. They just barely outshoot plasma vets, who are cheaper. Honestly sisters probably perform about as well as storm troopers in a direct shooting match at 18", at 12" sisters win (crappy rapid fire range for Storm Troopers). Beyond that, sisters are troops, meaning they can score, which IMO is worth more than scouting or outflanking. The only real redeeming quality STs have is the rerollable deepstrike, which as I mentioned makes them somewhat useful as a suicide unit.

I would gladly give up rerollable deepstrike (replace it with regular deepstrike or remove it completely for all I care) for a unit that is more than a gimmicky suicide unit that jumps in, kills a vehicle, and dies the next turn.

Buttons, I did say 'IF'. :d

I agree totally that they shouldn't suffer from an Elites Slot Tax, but the fact is that they do. Unlike Ratlings.

>< Ratlings are the most cost effective sniper unit in the game. You're basically paying 10 points for a BS4 sniper rifle anywhere you want it, with a 3+ cover save. Who cares if bolters wound them on 2+, they've basically got power armour unless you're within 8", in which case they're dead anyway. So no, Everything /> Ratlings, because Ratlings are awesome. Of all the things I give up by using the Elysian list, Ratlings and the Master of Ordnance are the only things I miss.

I was trying to say that Stormtroopers and basic Sisters should be about the same price, with ST being slightly more expensive for AP3, Deepstrike and Special Missions. I'd forgotten when I said it that the HSLG was only range 18". The main difference is that Stormtroopers ignore the Sisters' armour and wound on 4+, while the Sisters allow the Stormtroopers saves and wound on 3+. Lets be honest, here: The sisters have a 16% higher chance of wounding, while the Stormtroopers have a 50% higher chance of saving.

Stormtroopers would be better if they could be taken as Platoons, I think. Not like Infantry Platoons, maybe, but something like;

Stormtrooper Command (Officer + 4 Stormtroopers)
0-4 Stormtrooper squads (Sergeant + 4-9 Stormtroopers)
0-2 Stormtrooper Special Squads (Sergeant + 4 Specialists)

Where Specialists get to choose bonus equipment - power weapons, demo charges, lascutters, entrenching tools, what have you, but only one per model.

Stormtrooper squad is basically as it is at the moment, except they can take Valkyrie dedicated transports (as can the Command and Special squads).

Command squad gets medic, vox, laser designator (to grant allied vehicles twin-linked, or maybe a markerlight type effect), and anyone else can have a special weapon.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Stormtrooper Command (Officer + 4 Stormtroopers)
0-4 Stormtrooper squads (Sergeant + 4-9 Stormtroopers)
0-2 Stormtrooper Special Squads (Sergeant + 4 Specialists)

Where Specialists get to choose bonus equipment - power weapons, demo charges, lascutters, entrenching tools, what have you, but only one per model.

Stormtrooper squad is basically as it is at the moment, except they can take Valkyrie dedicated transports (as can the Command and Special squads).

Command squad gets medic, vox, laser designator (to grant allied vehicles twin-linked, or maybe a markerlight type effect), and anyone else can have a special weapon.

I would support Storm Trooper Platoons. Also, the thing is that sisters can fairly easily get a cover save, and they still aren't the primary enemy storm troopers face. Yes they are designed to penetrate power armour, but the main power armour enemies most players face are marines of some flavour, eg. toughness 4. When you look at shooting marines in cover at long range the odds aren't too nice, 10 shots, about 7 hits, about 2.5 wounds, and if they get a 5+ cover save, like 2 unsaved wounds. Marines in turn get 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, and 2 saves. They barely equal marines in a shooting matchup, and they can't score, their only real gimmick is deepstriking, which marines are fully capable of (albeit they need drop pods and can't get rerolls).

Storm troopers are far from awful, but I would like a more sturdy option.

No. This thread's entire premise relies on the faulty logic of assuming Veterans/Stormtroopers should be more skilled than regular Guardsmen without taking into account anything else in the universe. More skilled than Guardsmen, sure. As skilled as Space Marines? Aspect Warriors? Grey Knights? Orks? These are still humans trained for firefights we're talking about here, people.

Honestly, I can't endorse Stormtrooper Platoons either; they'd spawn an entire new Guard army build consisting of twenty unupgraded Veterans and an dozen squads of Stormtroopers, which would be absurd in context of the fluff and silly in context of the rules. Stormtroopers don't field regiments of their own, they're attached to other regiments as individual squads for specific missions. Even a variant army list for Stormtrooper regiments would be on very shaky ground fluff-wise.

This whole thread appears to be here for the sake of trying to solve a problem that isn't really a problem. Guard aren't supposed to be able to hold their own in close combat, they're supposed to blow the enemy away from across the board. They've got individuality, character, in that role; trying to turn them into a jack-of-all-trades army where every unit can do everything just produces another Space Marine army.

Hey the run of the mill Kriegsman is as skilled as an SM and so thus better than your stormtrooper in melee, doesn't make sense...

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Honestly, I can't endorse Stormtrooper Platoons either; they'd spawn an entire new Guard army build consisting of twenty unupgraded Veterans and an dozen squads of Stormtroopers, which would be absurd in context of the fluff and silly in context of the rules. Stormtroopers don't field regiments of their own, they're attached to other regiments as individual squads for specific missions. Even a variant army list for Stormtrooper regiments would be on very shaky ground fluff-wise.

This whole thread appears to be here for the sake of trying to solve a problem that isn't really a problem. Guard aren't supposed to be able to hold their own in close combat, they're supposed to blow the enemy away from across the board. They've got individuality, character, in that role; trying to turn them into a jack-of-all-trades army where every unit can do everything just produces another Space Marine army.

We're not trying to make them into a Jack army - if we were, we'd be saying, "Hey, don't Guard get awesome training compared to modern soldiers, they should all have BS4 surely? and WS4 as well?!

The discussion on vets has been thoroughly dropped, I think, but Stormies are better than that.

As far as 'Stormtrooper Regiments' goes, Redemption Corps disagrees... although admittedly, Redemption Corps was awful.

If you really object to the idea of Stormtrooper Platoons, then how about something a little closer to real life?

Fire-teams: When deploying a unit of Stormtroopers, you may choose to split off teams of three from the main unit. Each team of three operates completely independently on the battlefield, but must be deployed together. Each team, including the remaining squad, must number at least three models.

This gives tactical flexibility and makes the unit as a whole harder to kill, because a single round of shooting from a single unit can't wipe out the whole squad.

I don't think training has anything to do with it.

Guardsmen - trained in flight to a warzone/posting
Veterans - actually survived their first battle?
Stormtroopers - best ones picked for actual training/education
Regular Sisters - trained from early youth/constantly training when not on missions

They're all humans and unmodified.
They're still all WS3 (apart from the more elite Celestians)

Actually, Stormtroopers get the same early youth / constant training as the Sororitas, since both of them are recruited almost solely from the Schola Progenium (just like Commissars and Imperial Secretaries).

 Furyou Miko wrote:

As far as 'Stormtrooper Regiments' goes, Redemption Corps disagrees... although admittedly, Redemption Corps was awful.

In what sense? Fluffwise storm troopers (Imperial Guard storm troopers trained from the Schola Progenium) are formed into a single super regiment that NEVER fights as a whole (it would be like every space marine chapter fighting together). Some old source places the number of storm troopers at 10,000 strong. However, storm troopers can fight in larger formations, there is even an apocalypse formation that lets you field (I think it is 3+ 10 man squads in valkyries) if the need arises. Beyond that many worlds have their own homegrown variants, Cadians have Kasrkin, Death Korps has grenadiers. Just like a deathwing army is fluffwise the very best of the Dark Angels, a veteran/storm trooper heavy army would represent the best of the Imperial Guard fighting in one place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shandara wrote:

They're all humans and unmodified.
They're still all WS3 (apart from the more elite Celestians)

Death Korpsmen are all human and unmodified
They still all get WS4

Commissars are all human and unmodified (and are educated/trained in the Schola Progenium like Storm Troopers and Sisters of Battle)
They still all get WS4 for (apart from the more experienced Lord Commissars)

Also, Death Korps Captains are WS5.