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Lets say you live in the IoM and have heard the stories of the Emperors Angels.

You kow they are just legends but you can't help wondering if there is any truth in the myths.

You go down to the nearest church of the Holy Emperor thinking maybe you can get some info from the high priest.

As you walk up the steps you look at some of the stained-glass. There, in glorious detail is the Emperor facing Horus. At Horus's feet lies the Angel.

The preist answers some questions you have and explains that the Angel Sanguinius was one of the favored sons of the Emperor yadda yadda...

You walk away happy of your faith in the Emperor and his son Sangunius. Clearly he is a tragic figure in the legend and you may even wipe a tear from your eye.

Asking why the Blood Angels are hunted by the Inquisition is like asking why people still love Jesus even though he's a zombie.

 White Ninja wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
Blood Angels? Come on, the Grey Knights murdered a bunch of nuns and covered themselves in their blood, not to mention that every single one of them is a Psyker to some degree. And the Inquisition has no problem working hand in hand with them everyday.

The Grey Knights are higher up the pillar then even the Inquisition. No one save the Empra or maybe the High lords of Terra could call for their execution. And only an idiot would since the Grey Knights are based in the Terra system and would just go tell the Empra on the High Lords and then kill them all. Maybe If the high Lord sent all of the Assassins after them they could take them out but unlikely. And Hell the Dark Angels have gotten away with having half of their legion falling to chaos and time after time ditching their allies in battle to go chasing the fallen. Also good luck taking out the Space wolves since they are still the only Legion still operating as close to one fighting force when they fell like it.

No, they aren't. The Grey Knights are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus of the Inquisition. As a Chapter, they exist because the Emperor foresaw his own incapacitation, and decreed that a fighting force be created that could stand against Daemons. Once they were formed and Titan returned from its jaunt into Warp-Space, they were set on the rosters, secretly, as a Space Marine Chapter during the Second Founding, and placed under the command of the Inquisition.

Lynata wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:Logan Grimnar literally slaughtered both a Grey Knights grandmaster and an Inquisitor Lord shortly after that, in The Emperor's Gift.

Okay, a novel then. I'll keep that out of my personal interpretation, as I think there would be repercussions for this.

What some people who like to keep bringing this up often forget is who did the cutting. It was Logan Grimnar who did it. Not some wet behind the ears Bloodclaw. This guy has been the Chapter master (Great Wolf) of the entire Space Wolves organization for over 700 years. Who knows how long he was in the service of the IOM before making that title. His heroic deeds and selfless servitude to the IOM is legendary. The Sagas of his deeds fill entire rooms in the Great Hall of the Fang.

If a man such as this deemed that you needed to loose your head. I don't think there will be too many people who would oppose his action. I also feel that this sort of power/respect comes to all the current chapter masters. If it was Dante that did it, those who didn't get their heads chopped off, probably would just be like. "Well, that bob was a bit of a gakker anyway. Probably deserved it."

Also the number of times the SW have made the first move against the Inquisition can be counted on one hand. They almost always take the position of the defender in these situations. However, what those silly inquisitors always seem forget is that while the SW may not start every fight, they will always be the ones to end it.

And I think that this goes for all the SM chapters. Its just not a fight anyone would want to take on. Even if the Inquisitors win and destroy a whole chapter of SM the loss to the IOM would probably be overwhelming in the current situation. A total lose lose situation.

1hadhq wrote:An attack on the Emperor is far beyond the loss of every single inquisitor.
No one is going to be missed. First page of the BRB.

You're misunderstanding the message. An Inquisitor won't be missed, but killing him is a direct affront against the authority vested in them by the Emperor Himself. It's like those feudal laws from medieval times where "an attack on the king's soldiers is akin to an attack on the king". That does not make the soldier any more valuable, it has to do with them representing the sovereign. As the Inquisitors do for the God-Emperor in 40k. That is why they can order anyone and everyone around, ranging from Navy fleets to Space Marine Chapters to Titan legions.

Officially, at least. Inofficially, it often devolves into a game of politics, alliances, vows and favours - not in the least because of the Inquisition itself, or rather various individual Inquisitors and the friends they make.

Jayden63 wrote:If a man such as this deemed that you needed to loose your head. I don't think there will be too many people who would oppose his action.

Why not? List the number of friends in high places that this guy made. It's going to be a short list, simply because the SW have offended just about any Imperial organisation in the past. One should expect other Imperial organisations just waiting for a chance to get back at them.

The Inquisition is quite simply the wrong guy to pick a fight with. You can have issues with the AdMech or the Ecclesiarchy. Even with Navy and Guard commanders or other Space Marine Chapters. Because their influence is limited. This, however, does not apply to the Inquisition.

 Lynata wrote:

The Inquisition is quite simply the wrong guy to pick a fight with. You can have issues with the AdMech or the Ecclesiarchy. Even with Navy and Guard commanders or other Space Marine Chapters. Because their influence is limited. This, however, does not apply to the Inquisition.

No one's influence is unlimited.
Not even the big =I=...




The original subject of this thread, the Blood Angels, would send Mephy to meet the =I=. Stare at him/her. See them leave in a hurry to never return into imperial space. Case closed.

Lynata wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:If a man such as this deemed that you needed to loose your head. I don't think there will be too many people who would oppose his action.

Why not? List the number of friends in high places that this guy made. It's going to be a short list, simply because the SW have offended just about any Imperial organisation in the past. One should expect other Imperial organisations just waiting for a chance to get back at them.

The Inquisition is quite simply the wrong guy to pick a fight with. You can have issues with the AdMech or the Ecclesiarchy. Even with Navy and Guard commanders or other Space Marine Chapters. Because their influence is limited. This, however, does not apply to the Inquisition.

I think you undervalue what it means to have many friends in low places. None of the SM commanders have friends in high places. However, all of them are battle brothers, all of them have countless IG regiments who owe their lives to these men. The number of other SM factions that would aid any other SM faction is probably pretty high unless a particular faction did something totally atrocious.

You don't need to impress the 6 guys ahead of you, but when you have 2000+ battle hardened warriors willing to die for you and countless others willing to alley with you. That is its own special kind of power.

Jayden63 wrote:I think you undervalue what it means to have many friends in low places. None of the SM commanders have friends in high places. However, all of them are battle brothers, all of them have countless IG regiments who owe their lives to these men. The number of other SM factions that would aid any other SM faction is probably pretty high unless a particular faction did something totally atrocious.

Those IG regiments will get nowhere without a Navy transport. Actually, the common soldier will not even be made aware of their "friends" needing help; it's not like you have access to CNN as a Guardsman.

But let's just say they do happen to end up on the same planet. Let's say the Guard was deployed against the Space Marines. Do you really believe that the soldiers in question will be swayed more by the faraway presence of a bunch of faceless Space Marines - or by their own leaders, their own Commissars, their own Ecclesiarchy priests who represent the faith they have sworn themselves to? Space Marines live apart from the Imperial community, they have exiled themselves into a role of occasional allies. Their semi-independence does not come just with advantages alone, and being alienated from the people of the Imperium is quite simply one of the drawbacks. To most of them, the Astartes are a mystified, terrifying being, not unlike a monster you're glad is on your side. It would not take much propaganda to change this image. How many of the millions of Guardsmen that were sent to invade Fenris turned traitor and sided with the defending Space Wolves? I am not aware of a single example.

What is more of an issue could be the reaction of other Space Marine Chapters, as there truly are some ancient bonds that bind them together, likely much more than there are feuds. However, are those bonds strong enough for a Chapter Master to choose his brethren before the Imperium? This I do not believe. They might band together if they perceive an action as an attack upon the Space Marines as a whole instead of a single, isolated Chapter, but otherwise they would face being branded traitors themselves, their fleets overwhelmed by superior Navy warships before their planets are either bombed into orbs of glass or invaded by regiments of the Guard.

And not even a First Founding Chapter should be immune to this level of pragmatism from its battle-brothers. Where were the Space Wolves' friends as Fenris was under siege by Bucharis? They had three years to show up. No one came.

No one.

 Lynata wrote:

ElectricPaladin wrote:
The Inquisition can't afford to piss the Astartes off that much. They need the Blood Angels. They also need the Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Crimson and Imperial Fists, and all the others. If the Inquisition started meddling in the affairs of chapters that are still basically fighting for the Imperium, they might catch some trouble from the other chapters, either out of loyalty or fear of what the Inquisition will find if it digs in their closets.

That's a bit far-fetched, now. The Inquisition has been offing entire Chapters left and right if it felt the need to do so, and since they are arguably more closer to the Imperium (indeed, acting with the Emperor's own authority) than the Astartes, any Chapter that would feel bound to help their condemned brethren would invariably find itself drawn into a civil war with an entity they've sworn to protect, and in a conflict they have no chance at actually winning. I'm pretty sure any Chapter Master would think twice about this.

I agree that not every chapter would flock to the Blood Angels' defense, but I also don't think it's a sure thing that none of them would. You're right. It would precipitate a civil war, because I'm certain that some chapters would defend the Blood Angels. In fact, that might be part of why the Inquisition dares not pull this sort of BS - do they want to be responsible for tearing the Imperium apart?

Glancing at the list, here's my personal opinion:

Neutral Chapters (Chapters that would try to stay out of it - I've put every Chapter I know nothing about here)
• White Scars and their successors - can't imagine they'd care
• Imperial Fists and their successors - the same.
• Raven Guard - see above

Inquisition Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Inquisition against the Blood Angels)
• Black Templars - they hate everything.
• Grey Knights - part of the Inquisition
• Iron Hands - they're in bed with the Mechanicus, who also don't like the Blood Angels, a move that ties them closely to the Imperium's politics.

Blood Angels Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Blood Angels against the Inquisition)
• Blood Angels and all their successors, probably including the Knights of Blood
• Ultramarines and some of their closer successors - I can't imagine the boy scouts letting a chapter that's basically done good, despite their mutations and issues, be wiped out.
• Dark Angels - can you imagine these guys letting the Inquisition get away with judging Chapters? They know they'd be next.
• Space Wolves - they might not like the Angels, but mortals trying to kill an Astartes chapter would annoy them.
• Salamanders - well known as the most compassionate chapter. Like the Ultramarines, they'd support the Blood Angels out of sheer good-guy-ness.

Man... this would be awesome. Someone should write this novel.

The Exorcists and the Red Hunters are "Inquisition Chapters", too.

As for the Ultramarines, I'm really not sure - they in particular strike me as being extremely loyal to the concept of the Imperium, and not enjoying the idea of having to go to war against it.
And the Space Wolves ... eh, they didn't care one bit when the Inquisition moved against the Sons of Malice either.

I think that for a lot of Chapters, including the Ultras, it would really depend on the accusations and any proof brought against the "recipient", meaning whether the Inquisition has a good-enough reason to pull such a move.

If they do it openly (see Celestial Lions). Long term covert sabotage would surely be a safer way to avoid "collateral damage" against other Imperial forces, at least in cases where such an escalation could be foreseen due to a specific Chapter's relationships.

But yeah, that is indeed stuff for an amazing novel. Though it's already obvious which side would win in any case. *scnr*

 Lynata wrote:

But yeah, that is indeed stuff for an amazing novel. Though it's already obvious which side would win in any case. *scnr*

But even in that victory, so much would change! What would the Astartes do with the Imperium once they've basically killed off the entire Inquisition?

ElectricPaladin wrote:But even in that victory, so much would change! What would the Astartes do with the Imperium once they've basically killed off the entire Inquisition?

And the entire Segmentum's Navy, and almost every Imperial Guard regiment within 10.000 light years.

The biggest issue of such a development would probably be that most Chapters do not have enough in common to unify their territories or even agree on a course of action. It would most likely result in several dozen "mini empires" that are going to be picked off one by one by Mankind's various enemies. Specifically the reason why the Ultras are so loyal; their leaders know there is no other way and that civil war would doom the Emperor's vision forever.

Actually trying to overthrow the High Lords would be the more beneficial thing to do in the long run, but that's easier said than done, unless you increase the plot armour even further.

 Lynata wrote:

ElectricPaladin wrote:But even in that victory, so much would change! What would the Astartes do with the Imperium once they've basically killed off the entire Inquisition?

And the entire Segmentum's Navy, and almost every Imperial Guard regiment within 10.000 light years.

The biggest issue of such a development would probably be that most Chapters do not have enough in common to unify their territories or even agree on a course of action. It would most likely result in several dozen "mini empires" that are going to be picked off one by one by Mankind's various enemies. Specifically the reason why the Ultras are so loyal; their leaders know there is no other way and that civil war would doom the Emperor's vision forever.

Actually trying to overthrow the High Lords would be the more beneficial thing to do in the long run, but that's easier said than done, unless you increase the plot armour even further.

It's true - the only outcome of this conflict that doesn't involve destruction for the IoM and near-genocide for mankind is probably if the war doesn't quite reach it's conclusion, allowing the various factions to reunite and recreate the Imperium.

 insaniak wrote:
6) Everyone knows that vampires aren't real... so the Inquisition just assumes that the BAs are a bunch of emo cosplayers...

I cant remember what book i was reading but apperently in 40k there actually are, tough they are demons they drank blood ( one of the primarchs i think, it was a relic and through some kind of treachery they got into the safe room) it was a Sm novel

There are also Vampire blades.

They are kinda like Daemon weapons but not really. More of a psychic construct in the form of a weapon that sucks the very life essence of the victim and feeds it to the wielder.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There are also Vampire blades.

They are kinda like Daemon weapons but not really. More of a psychic construct in the form of a weapon that sucks the very life essence of the victim and feeds it to the wielder.

That sounds totally legit.

40k has everything - even zombies!

If in doubt, blame Chaos for it.

Lynata wrote:

1)To most of them, the Astartes are a mystified, terrifying being, not unlike a monster you're glad is on your side. It would not take much propaganda to change this image.

2)How many of the millions of Guardsmen that were sent to invade Fenris turned traitor and sided with the defending Space Wolves? I am not aware of a single example.

3)Where were the Space Wolves' friends as Fenris was under siege by Bucharis? They had three years to show up. No one came.

No one

4)The Inquisition has been offing entire Chapters left and right if it felt the need to do so, and since they are arguably more closer to the Imperium (indeed, acting with the Emperor's own authority) than the Astartes, any Chapter that would feel bound to help their condemned brethren would invariably find itself drawn into a civil war with an entity they've sworn to protect, and in a conflict they have no chance at actually winning.

1) So the "Angels of Death" are monsters now? Until you want to tell the whole truth of the heresy to every imperial subject and see the IoM broken apart because of the distrust this creates, you don't change the official image of any organization of the IoM.

2) How many returned? No one?

3) Bucharis has thrown himself 'to the wolves'. You can find another example in the 6th ed BRB, where space marines are sent on a crusade because of accusations from the ecclesiarchy and in the end the one starting this was undone, when those marines returned.

4) More closer? The "secret police" , the one no one is fond of? Those who didn't stop Vandire? The super secret oh so influental orginazation that can't prevent the badab war? Seems they aren't doing so well.
Maybe its not THE inquisition but THE inquisitor? You know, something that may see ordos disagree and even openly oppose each other.
Who can guarantee the whole thing doesn't go awfully wrong and the "emperors authority" is claimed by both sides?
There is also a chance those who speak against the BA aren't loyal to the throne anymore... and have to be purged themselves.


altered list of:

ElectricPaladin wrote:

Neutral Chapters (Chapters that would try to stay out of it - I've put every Chapter I know nothing about here)

• Iron Hands - they're in bed with the Mechanicus, which could stay neutral to sell their services to both sides...

Inquisition Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Inquisition against the Blood Angels)

• Grey Knights - part of the Inquisition


Blood Angels Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Blood Angels against the Inquisition)
• White Scars and their successors - prefer independence and may act to prevent any attempt to tie them
• Imperial Fists and their successors - fought alongside the BA. Pretty straightforward when honor is involved.
• Raven Guard - the Imperium above all else, even the =I=. Would oppose the =I= if they see them as control freaks..
• Black Templars - usually crusading against the xeno. Inquisitors protect xenos sometimes. Who consorts with the enemy is going to suffer..


Man... this would be awesome. Someone should write this novel.

Please, not someone. Someone is bad, very bad. The risk of "someone"... * switches into atsknf mode * is too high.

Lynata wrote: Though it's already obvious which side would win in any case. *scnr*

The Emperor, since this would make him very angry, so he decides to get rid of a few who get his vision of a united humanity wrong.
You may volunteer to clean the mess of the x-ploded heads if you want.

Lynata wrote:

Actually trying to overthrow the High Lords would be the more beneficial thing to do in the long run, but that's easier said than done, unless you increase the plot armour even further.

Back to the 6th ed BRB ( something no one seems to care about ), in the timeline you will find an event where all High Lords were dead.
Who stepped up to sort this out?

A) the inquisition ?
B) the Astartes?

1hadhq wrote:So the "Angels of Death" are monsters now? Until you want to tell the whole truth of the heresy to every imperial subject and see the IoM broken apart because of the distrust this creates, you don't change the official image of any organization of the IoM.

"It is a matter of debate whether the Space Marines are truly human at all. Their genetically engineered bodies are far superior to normal humans, enough to make them a separate race if one wished to interpret their differences so. How can any self-respecting Confessor or Cardinal relate to a monstrous giant who can spit acid, crush a man's skull with one hand and practices crude acts of blood sacrifice?"

Guess who controls (and indoctrinates) the masses? As I said, being so far removed from the populace has its drawbacks. This includes a lack of ability to influence what people are being taught about them, or even just communicating the fact that they don't actually wish to kill them.

I think I can actually dig up more examples rather than just the quote above, if you give me some time until I can get back to my books. There's quite a number of instances in the fluff where even those Guardsmen who actually get to see them are terrified of their conduct in close combat (and I even recall a short story about Blood Angels storming a breach, scaring the gak out of their allies), or even disgusted by a display of arrogance (like Colonel Celestine on Armageddon and his argument with Captain Vinyard of the Marines Malevolent).
Undoubtedly, the Space Marines are universally represented as heroes of the Imperium, with countless statues on Imperial worlds - but scary heroes that "put the fear of the Emperor" in you, and it would not be too difficult for the Confessors accompanying all Guard regiments by default making use of that image to twist them into being perceived as monsters. How do you think IG regiments are prepared for the 13th Black Crusade? They are fighting "Space Marines" there, too.

1hadhq wrote:How many returned? No one?

You're going to have to elaborate that one.

1hadhq wrote:Bucharis has thrown himself 'to the wolves'. You can find another example in the 6th ed BRB, where space marines are sent on a crusade because of accusations from the ecclesiarchy and in the end the one starting this was undone, when those marines returned.

You are trying to say that Bucharis managed to send every single Space Marine Chapter "away", with no one left to help the Wolves, and that it was just the Space Wolves as the sole Astartes Chapter who didn't care one bit for such a remarkable display of loyalty?

Even if that were true - of which there is not even a trace in the story - who's to say that the Imperium would not simply pull that move again whenever they want to exterminate a Chapter that has a lot of friends?

1hadhq wrote:More closer? The "secret police" , the one no one is fond of?

Yep. The "secret police" who has no trouble securing the service of the Imperium's main fighting forces for whatever agenda they are pursueing. An ability that the Space Marines lack due to existing outside the hierarchy. That they defy the Imperial Faith widens this gap even more, being a point of contention between the Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy ever since. It's not a coincidence that the Inquisition looks to the Sisters of Battle more often than to other Space Marine Chapters when attempting a purge.

"In such cases a conclave of Inquisitors will decide upon a source of action, and should an armed response be required this will often be entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas. Few Space Marine Chapters would be asked to move against another except in the direst circumstances."

1hadhq wrote:Who can guarantee the whole thing doesn't go awfully wrong and the "emperors authority" is claimed by both sides?

That's easy. The Inquisition has, by law, the highest authority. Officially, they can command entire Chapters, so they are arguably higher up in the chain of command. The Space Marines on the other hand cannot enforce command over any element of the Navy or the Guard ever since the Horus Heresy and the edicts passed in its wake, as you are no doubt aware of. Edicts specifically meant to strip the Astartes of the ability to ever pose a threat against the Imperium again.

 Lynata wrote:

Guess who controls (and indoctrinates) the masses?

Not the inquisition.

 Lynata wrote:

I think I can actually dig up more examples rather than just the quote above, if you give me some time until I can get back to my books. There's quite a number of instances in the fluff where even those Guardsmen who actually get to see them are terrified of their conduct in close combat (and I even recall a short story about Blood Angels storming a breach, scaring the gak out of their allies), or even disgusted by a display of arrogance (like Colonel Celestine on Armageddon and his argument with Captain Vinyard of the Marines Malevolent).

The fear the astartes instill isn't the point. The trust lost in the heresy is. It had to be re-established ( partially ) to keep the forces of the Imperium able to fight alongside. So breaking that again gets you where? distrust of all that is different? Now its not just the astartes who are different, the psyker , the adepts of the mechanicum etc...
There is delicate balance kept, one that allows to aim all hate towards the traitor and the xeno.

 Lynata wrote:

Undoubtedly, the Space Marines are universally represented as heroes of the Imperium, with countless statues on Imperial worlds - but scary heroes that "put the fear of the Emperor" in you, and it would not be too difficult for the Confessors accompanying all Guard regiments by default making use of that image to twist them into being perceived as monsters.

Imperial worlds have lots of statues and many are local heroes and some distant ones, but they are represent saviours.
How do you twist that image without opening the gates for the agents of chaos to fill their lies into the minds of the unwary?

IG regiments may have a confessor, but not all have. Badmouthing the Emperors own is a good reason to put those confessors to the blade.
Because basically, sowing distrust is wasting the Emperors time and ressources as it may misdirect the righteous hate from the valid target ( ie who opposes the emperors rule ) to an invalid one ( your brothers in arms ). Seems like some are already no longer in his light.
Maybe another cleansing of the church is neccessary, they didn't learn their lesson last time.

 Lynata wrote:

How do you think IG regiments are prepared for the 13th Black Crusade? They are fighting "Space Marines" there, too.

Maybe humans aren't so dumb and learn to identify friend and foe? Like don't shoot the ones without spikes...
Otherwise, they can't get along if they don't know what the red marine and the green marine, the blue or the yellow marine are.
Chaos in all its variety, looks different. ( maybe just from a buisness point of GW, maybe because the warp just has to alter everything ).
Your idea of space marines in general as " the enemy" will get them killed. Black crusade > 2 flavors of marines > shoot the wrong ones and youre the traitor...

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:How many returned? No one?

You're going to have to elaborate that one.

you said ?a? million guardsmen went there, I asked who got out of this alive.

 Lynata wrote:
who's to say that the Imperium would not simply pull that move again whenever they want to exterminate a Chapter that has a lot of friends?

Because there is no "THE imperium" but a council of Lords and an Emperor who may just request the head of the idiot that tried to call his Red Marines anything but loyal? Because "the imperium" is based on consent of multiple organizations and "the" inquisition" isn't a monolithic block either.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Who can guarantee the whole thing doesn't go awfully wrong and the "emperors authority" is claimed by both sides?

That's easy. The Inquisition has, by law, the highest authority. Officially, they can command entire Chapters, so they are arguably higher up in the chain of command.

Really? Easily wrong. The highest authority is the Emperor. Inquisitors can act "in his name" but still 2 inquisitors could both claim that.
Ordos could have different agendas and in this case who can overrule the other?
The inquisition is also imperfect as they are humans, not the "God" Emperor himself. Inquisitors make mistakes or turn to chaos.

1hadhq wrote:Not the inquisition.

But its allies.

The thing is that - unlike the Astartes - the Inquisition will be able to mobilise a unified front within the Imperium when it wants to. The Ecclesiarchy is a part of that, as will be the Guard and the Navy and the Mechanicus. Within the IoM, all these organisations are connected to each other, and each shares representation in the Council of High Lords. The Space Marines standing outside of all this means they will find no support from within the Imperium. A Chapter may have individual contacts and "friends" within the Inquisition itself, but these would be unable to do anything against a conclave decision and indeed might have to fear being branded traitors as well if they try to interfere.

1hadhq wrote:The fear the astartes instill isn't the point. The trust lost in the heresy is. It had to be re-established ( partially ) to keep the forces of the Imperium able to fight alongside. So breaking that again gets you where?

Which is exactly why I think that most Space Marine Chapters would sit back, and why the Inquisition would not condemn a Chapter lightly. Simply put: There is a line that should not be crossed, and for the Marines it is quite a bit further away than for ordinary citizens. But still they can cross it too, and once this is done, the renegades will have to face the Imperium's wrath alone.

1hadhq wrote:Imperial worlds have lots of statues and many are local heroes and some distant ones, but they are represent saviours. How do you twist that image without opening the gates for the agents of chaos to fill their lies into the minds of the unwary?

That is the task of the Preachers and Confessors attached to the various Imperial forces. Either way, it would have zero effect to a regiment's original homeworld and its population, given that a regiment - once raised - will never return home. In this way, any doubt picked up during service will never taint the population itself.

And really, Space Marine Chapters going rogue is not something that happens once every 10.000 years. The Imperium should be rather adept at dismantling a Chapter and stripping it out of historical records by now. Most Chapters are probably revered in few places apart from their own homeworld, too, and as we can see from the Sons of Malice, the native population might simply be wiped out as part of the campaign.

1hadhq wrote:IG regiments may have a confessor, but not all have.

As per Ecclesiarchal decree, they all have. Sayeth so in the 5E Codex IG.

1hadhq wrote:Badmouthing the Emperors own is a good reason to put those confessors to the blade.

And who should do this? The people they are preaching to? The fervent worshipers and members of the faith, who have been raised to respect and believe anything the Ecclesiarchy teaches them? Because for some reason they have more faith in some random silent Marine statue they've maybe seen once? Yeah, sure.

1hadhq wrote:Maybe another cleansing of the church is neccessary, they didn't learn their lesson last time. ;:(

Oh, but in this instance we are talking about cleansing a Space Marine Chapter - because they didn't learn their lesson the last time, don't we?

1hadhq wrote:Maybe humans aren't so dumb and learn to identify friend and foe? Like don't shoot the ones without spikes...

You act like the Imperium actually teaches this stuff in grade school.
IG troopers shoot at whoever their commander points them at, and friend/foe identification will be dealt with prior to a campaign via a proper briefing. No single Guardsman in the entirety of the Imperium will be able to identify all existing Space Marine Chapters based on their colours and heraldry.
And as you said it yourself, "Chaos in all its variety looks different" - this includes the possibility of heretical cults operating with insignia other than an eight-spoked star...

1hadhq wrote:you said a million guardsmen went there, I asked who got out of this alive.

Several million Guardsmen went there. Exact numbers were not given, unfortunately, only that the invasion which saw most of Fenris except for the Fang conquered lasted three years. I don't expect many of the forces already deployed on the surface have survived, given that the Segmentum Pacificus Navy was cut off by a fleet of Space Wolf Battle Barges forcing them to retreat. Bucharis himself managed to escaped, though, so I suspect there was a window allowing him and a few others to get away.

1hadhq wrote:Because there is no "THE imperium" but a council of Lords and an Emperor who may just request the head of the idiot that tried to call his Red Marines anything but loyal? Because "the imperium" is based on consent of multiple organizations and "the inquisition" isn't a monolithic block either.

You're missing the point. We are talking about the hypothetical situation that an Inquisitorial Conclave has condemned a Chapter for somehow being too far gone, like it happened in the past. You want to tell me that for some strange reason there will be resistance in the Imperium against such a decree? By whom? Why?

1hadhq wrote:Really? Easily wrong. The highest authority is the Emperor. Inquisitors can act "in his name" but still 2 inquisitors could both claim that. Ordos could have different agendas and in this case who can overrule the other? The inquisition is also imperfect as they are humans, not the "God" Emperor himself. Inquisitors make mistakes or turn to chaos.

An individual Inquisitor cannot overrule a conclave. The Inquisition does operate as a monolithic block once difficult decisions call for a majority vote. Conclaves are held for specifically this one reason - to lend more weight to a decision and to ensure that such an endeavour cannot be torpedoed by some wayward individual from their own ranks. Otherwise, things would be even more of a mess than they already are.

Lynata, apparently you have a very different view of the fluff from GW. While your ideas make rational sense we know this:
1) The Inquisition is only relevant to the degree they are supporting or attacking the SM chapter that is the subject of the story. If the latter, see #3
2) SOB don't scare anyone. They are a step above IG in terms of getting brutally fluff slaughtered.
3) The Inquisition is free to wipe out any mooks (IG regiments, planets, non-core SM chapters) or Chaos (though not permanently), but the moment they clash with a named SM good guy, they lose
4) SM always have whatever support the fluff dictates they need
and
5) SMs are GW's poster boys and biggest cash cows (this fact trumps anyother fluff argument)

So, when say Grimnar gets pissed because the Inq wants to purge Armageddon, and a fight breaks out, guess who wins? You got it, the SWs repel the Inq, slay the wayward inquisitor (who, in all fairness, did start the conflict) and suffer no ill effects other than some fist shaking by the Inq. Oh, and no other chapters came because the SW didn't need them. Just like BA, UM, DA, etc. wouldn't. They are the big dogs (IE moneymakers) and if you attack one of the "good guys" you are now a bad guy. Guess who loses in GW fluff?

Argue all you want, but money dictates that in the 41st millennium, Space Marines top any other faction/group/race. They are the center of the narrative.

jmurph wrote:Argue all you want, but money dictates that in the 41st millennium, Space Marines top any other faction/group/race. They are the center of the narrative.

I don't dispute it, I just deplore it.

My whole argument is based on the GW fluff laying the groundwork (organisations, hierarchy, laws, habits, relationships, ...) for the setting. That a few individual incidents published by the same source fly in the face of said groundwork is very much a known issue, but doesn't really change my position or what it is based on. Do I *believe* that the SW will ever be held accountable? No. I'm just saying they should, if the narrative would (a) actually continue beyond M41 and (b) value consistency over monetary concerns. Not more, not less.

The same would be true for the BA if they'd ever be condemned, though here my position is that the Imperium does not actually have a reason to purge them.

And btw Red Hunters didn't go very well agains the SW...(their flagship crashing ond Fenris and easy dinner for the wolves)...

And what about dirty scheming after the battle which even shocked random GK? Refusing to help the SW when Abby strikes and questioning their Genseed....all after the battle ( which they LOST )

Also there is no question,help would come to to the BA (First to respond would be the first/second founding chapters)

 ElectricPaladin wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

ElectricPaladin wrote:
The Inquisition can't afford to piss the Astartes off that much. They need the Blood Angels. They also need the Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Crimson and Imperial Fists, and all the others. If the Inquisition started meddling in the affairs of chapters that are still basically fighting for the Imperium, they might catch some trouble from the other chapters, either out of loyalty or fear of what the Inquisition will find if it digs in their closets.

That's a bit far-fetched, now. The Inquisition has been offing entire Chapters left and right if it felt the need to do so, and since they are arguably more closer to the Imperium (indeed, acting with the Emperor's own authority) than the Astartes, any Chapter that would feel bound to help their condemned brethren would invariably find itself drawn into a civil war with an entity they've sworn to protect, and in a conflict they have no chance at actually winning. I'm pretty sure any Chapter Master would think twice about this.

I agree that not every chapter would flock to the Blood Angels' defense, but I also don't think it's a sure thing that none of them would. You're right. It would precipitate a civil war, because I'm certain that some chapters would defend the Blood Angels. In fact, that might be part of why the Inquisition dares not pull this sort of BS - do they want to be responsible for tearing the Imperium apart?

Glancing at the list, here's my personal opinion:

Neutral Chapters (Chapters that would try to stay out of it - I've put every Chapter I know nothing about here)
• White Scars and their successors - can't imagine they'd care
• Imperial Fists and their successors - the same.
• Raven Guard - see above

Inquisition Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Inquisition against the Blood Angels)
• Black Templars - they hate everything.
• Grey Knights - part of the Inquisition
• Iron Hands - they're in bed with the Mechanicus, who also don't like the Blood Angels, a move that ties them closely to the Imperium's politics.

Blood Angels Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Blood Angels against the Inquisition)
• Blood Angels and all their successors, probably including the Knights of Blood
• Ultramarines and some of their closer successors - I can't imagine the boy scouts letting a chapter that's basically done good, despite their mutations and issues, be wiped out.
• Dark Angels - can you imagine these guys letting the Inquisition get away with judging Chapters? They know they'd be next.
• Space Wolves - they might not like the Angels, but mortals trying to kill an Astartes chapter would annoy them.
• Salamanders - well known as the most compassionate chapter. Like the Ultramarines, they'd support the Blood Angels out of sheer good-guy-ness.

Man... this would be awesome. Someone should write this novel.

So you think the Imperial Fists and White Scars wouldn't flock to the Blood Angels defence? Ha, don't make me laugh, so they would not honour the sacrifice that Sanguinius made, Sanguinius is the most renowned Primarch of them all, im sure they would. They fought side by side at the Battle of Terra, fought together, died together, I have no doubt they would jump to the defence of the BA. Also when Corax tried to speed up the Space Marines making process for the RG, mutant marines were created. They would help.

I do agree with you about the GK, and Iron Hands. Not the Black Templars, though. The Grey Knights of course will fight for the Inquisition. Iron Hands hate all impurities and want to be perfect in the eyes of the Emperor, they would see the flaws in the BA gene seed as an Impurity that can't be cured. The Black Templars hate psykers, so I believe they wouldn't fight against a fellow chapter, siding with the Inquisition who are full of psykers no doubt. Against Chaos I think they would, against the BA or any other chapter where there is no evidence, they wouldn't.

Successors will help, Knights of Blood will too, they helped fend of the Tyranid invasion of Baal.
The BA follow the codex astartes fairly strictly, also at the Second War of Armageddon, Marneus Calgar and Tu'Shan (I think), made Lord Dante the overall Commander. So yeah i agree with this.
Dark Angels, yeah, both Chapters have secrets for their own reasons, no doubt they would help.
Space Wolves, you forgot to mention that they absolutely despise the Inquisition in every way. Sanguinius and Russ were good friends. The First War of Armageddon, the Inquisition want to "remove" everyone who had the knowledge of Chaos, of which the SW disagreed. Logan Grimnar went so far as to kill an Inquisitor.
Salamanders, yep.

Then again this is all my personal opinion, with some facts, so feel free to disagree

 Testify wrote:
Some of their higher-ups look like vampires, they have an entire company that is completely over-wealmed by rage. I know the Astartes are allowed lee-way when other sectors of the Imperium are not, but the Blood Angels seem to be above and beyond what any of the other marine chapters have done.

It seems like the Inquisition would look very dimly on this, unlike other scuffles this would not be because of ruffled feathers or a natural distrust of authority, rather because the entire chapter would seem, to outsiders, to be Khornite.

So why haven't they been squashed yet?

Plot armor basically. Same thing with Space Wolves. Realistically the SW's would have been crushed long ago by the Ministorum's invasion (as opposed to a few dozen squads of long fangs miraculously repeatedly annihilating entire armored columns, etc). That's really how like half the factions in this game continue to exist, simply because GW wants them to, not because it makes any actual sense, or the Tau Empire would have been overrun in weeks and the Space Wolves destroyed if though nothing else than a Vraksian style siege.

I think another thing that gets lost in all this is just how badly GW has screwed up the numbers of the various parties. There are maybe what 1,000,000 actual space marines in service for the entire IOM. Thats a million guys to watch over and defend Trillions of inhabitants and even more light years of space border to defend. All of the SM combined are nothing more than a drop of spit into the ocean when you start looking at the combined galactic population of all of the races. Yet, here they are, the supreme vaulted warriors of the IOM.

If an infinitesimal percentage of the over all population are your supreme heros, then my friend, they can do what ever the hell they want. And like the guy above me said. They win because GW wants them to win, not because they actually can win.

In truth against the sort of odds the IOM faces, SM numbers should equal the current standing guard numbers. This is why they say that a single tac squad can passify an entire planet. GW is in part its own worse enemy. They make claims that just cannot be realized by any sense of imagination by the learned man. But they hook us at a young age where fantasy and impossible odds are badass and the idea of logistics is no more important than why the grass grows.

Jayden wrote:All of the SM combined are nothing more than a drop of spit into the ocean when you start looking at galatic population of all of the races.

Exactly. Their importance to the Imperium as a whole is greatly exagerrated. Yet on the other hand, they are still way too useful to just get rid of 'em. They don't win any war that the Imperial Guard couldn't have won on its own - but they shorten the time and manpower required for the job considerably when they take out a critical objective or punch a hole into the enemy's defense.

It's rather similar to the Storm Trooper regiment, whose only raison d'être is to support other Imperial elements throughout the galaxy. They don't even deploy their full force anywhere but send a few companies at most. Space Marine Chapters are quite a bit more versatile and capable of more independent operations (within a certain scope), but you get the idea.

Jayden wrote:Yet, here they are, the supreme vaulted warriors of the IOM.

Yeah, but not because of what they are today. They are revered for what they were during the Great Crusade. They are an embodiment of "the better days" when the Emperor was still around, they are His own creation, and Imperial propaganda knows how important heroes are for the general public.
Do you think the Adepta Sororitas are revered because there's a few thousand Battle Sisters roaming the galaxy and putting heretics to the torch? Hell no, they are revered because they wear fancy "angelic" armour and because the Preachers tell people they're cool.

This is just how the Imperium works.

Jayden wrote:If an infinitesimal percentage of the over all population are your supreme heros, then my friend. They can do what ever the hell they want.

As we can see from the fluff, the higher up you are in the Imperial hierarchy, the less likely you actually are to buy into that propaganda. For a lot of people, it might be quite similar to some kind of "reality shock", almost as if you'd meet some famous actor you've always loved only to find out he/she is a total ass, privately.

"Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies. This alone is of no concern to myself or the Order. [...]
During my service to the Order, I have heard many strange rumours concerning the Successor Chapters of the Blood Angels, but it is evident that the Fleshtearers have devolved far beyond any point reached by a loyalist Chapter. Either call in an Inquisitor or bring the Imperial Navy to bombard these animals from space, but my Order will not fight alongside the Fleshtearers again, I swear it. By the Immortal Emperor and everything I hold to be Holy, my Sisters will not risk themselves by allying with savages, regardless of your own wishes."
-- Canoness Carmina

Coincidentally, the higher up you are in the food chain, the more likely it is you are in a position to make things difficult for anyone else, including a Marine Chapter that you have some sort of quarrel with. There's not too many people in the Imperium who can say this of themselves, but they certainly do exist.

Jayden wrote:This is why they say that a single tac squad can passify an entire planet.

Who says that? Their fans?

 Lynata wrote:
A Chapter may have individual contacts and "friends" within the Inquisition itself, but these would be unable to do anything against a conclave decision and indeed might have to fear being branded traitors as well if they try to interfere.

There is no conclave as there is no evidence. There is no evidence because there is nothing wrong with the BA.
So that non existant conclave has nothing to debate and therfore nothing to decide. Because to have a conclave, there had to be a reason to have one. Thats where the OP fails. It doesn't get off ground, but if it would its unlikely to see a loyal inquisitor providing false evidence so its IMO a corrupt one, this will resolve itself whenever other inquisitors counter check this and dispose of the traitor.

 Lynata wrote:
But still they can cross it too, and once this is done, the renegades will have to face the Imperium's wrath alone.

Points at lots of crusades. Points at badab war.
So generally there is more flexibility in the IoM than you think. Whole chapters rarely turn and the line isn't thin but pretty fat.
The IoM may send a bunch of 30 chapters into the Eye to pay for their "crossing the line" but marines tend to march into hell and back.
Especially if the evidence was "created".
In the case of badab, the =I= failed to contain an issue and nearly lost multiple chapters and regiments instead of dealing out the imperial wrath. Plus I see no ecclesiarchy there.... *wonders where they hid*...

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Imperial worlds have lots of statues and many are local heroes and some distant ones, but they are represent saviours. How do you twist that image without opening the gates for the agents of chaos to fill their lies into the minds of the unwary?

That is the task of the Preachers and Confessors attached to the various Imperial forces.

So those priests will tell the same lies as the agents of the arch-enemy?
Good, makes it easier to purge them. Who acts like the arch enemy, becomes what he preaches against and shall suffer.
Because its not so easy to make sure this doesn't end as a "shoot everything in PA / TDA " and these enraged masses trying to attack your SoB because of PA and boltguns...

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:IG regiments may have a confessor, but not all have.

As per Ecclesiarchal decree, they all have. Sayeth so in the 5E Codex IG.

Ecclesiarchy is unimportant. *Looks at his IG. Does not spot a confessor.* They are either very shy or in the same spot as the invisible support of the munitorum.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Badmouthing the Emperors own is a good reason to put those confessors to the blade.

And who should do this? The people they are preaching to?

Yep. Every imperial subject has the duty to oppose the traitor and the heretic. Preaching against the forces of the IoM is ....you guess it, a good reason to be burnt at the stake. Heard they love fire, so put fire on their fire

 Lynata wrote:
instance we are talking about cleansing a Space Marine Chapter - because they didn't learn their lesson the last time, don't we?

This isn't about the Blood Angels anymore?
In this case, corrupted members of the ecclesiarchy have mislead whole worlds into damnation. Shouldn't they learn their lesson too?

 Lynata wrote:
You act like the Imperium actually teaches this stuff in grade school.

But it does. Want examples?
May I also add the IIUP, where the menace of the xeno is described 'correctly'. To assume they don't know about the astartes and the mechanicum but somehow every single one of them has this little book to inform him/her of a wide range of possible opponents is not what I have expected from you.

 Lynata wrote:

Several million Guardsmen went there. Exact numbers were not given, unfortunately, only that the invasion which saw most of Fenris except for the Fang conquered lasted three years.

Fenris is classified as a deathworld IIRC. Its surface isn't stable except for the Fang and asaheim. Having a leader like Bucharis would explain why they may not have cared and the IG may been lost to natural disasters ( if we go for a believable end, not just Space wolf sagas ).

 Lynata wrote:
You want to tell me that for some strange reason there will be resistance in the Imperium against such a decree? By whom? Why?

An example of such decree against anyone carriying the legacy of the Legions would be nice.
I think this is something that only happens to those having weird names to begin with, whose place is with chaos as their fluff will be part of
a CSM codex. So resistance is unneccessary.

1hadhq wrote:There is no conclave as there is no evidence. There is no evidence because there is nothing wrong with the BA.

We're talking past each other. As I said, BA are fine. I'm talking about the cases where evidence would be easy to procure. I am argueing that "being a Space Marine" is not (or rather: should not) a "get ouf of jail free" card that simply negates any stupid move a Chapter Master might pull. Because some people in this thread seem convinced that this is the case.

1hadhq wrote:The IoM may send a bunch of 30 chapters into the Eye to pay for their "crossing the line" but marines tend to march into hell and back.

The IoM may also send 1 Chapter to Armageddon, feed them false Intel about the Orks and snipe their Apothecaries if they really don't like them.

1hadhq wrote:So those priests will tell the same lies as the agents of the arch-enemy?

What lies? Space Marines do not follow the One True Faith, can (depending on the Chapter) be labeled as mutants and (depending on the circumstances) be labeled as traitors if they refused a direct order from a higher authority. Such as the Inquisition.

1hadhq wrote:Ecclesiarchy is unimportant. *Looks at his IG. Does not spot a confessor.* They are either very shy or in the same spot as the invisible support of the munitorum.

Hey, I only repeat what it says in GW's fluff.
Kudos for supposedly having a full regiment of Imperial Guard in minis, tho.

1hadhq wrote:Yep. Every imperial subject has the duty to oppose the traitor and the heretic. Preaching against the forces of the IoM is ....you guess it, a good reason to be burnt at the stake. Heard they love fire, so put fire on their fire

You're mixing things up. It's not "against the forces of the IoM" when it is the IoM that does the preaching. It's called "Excommunicate Traitoris". The Sons of Malice learned what this means the hard way.

And they weren't even guilty! (I think)

1hadhq wrote:In this case, corrupted members of the ecclesiarchy have mislead whole worlds into damnation. Shouldn't they learn their lesson too?

That's why there's the Sisters of Battle, to go around and kill Apostate Cardinals. Oh, and the Ordo Hereticus, which was established after the Age of Apostasy to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again.

1hadhq wrote:May I also add the IIUP, where the menace of the xeno is described 'correctly'. To assume they don't know about the astartes and the mechanicum but somehow every single one of them has this little book to inform him/her of a wide range of possible opponents is not what I have expected from you.

The IIUP is Black Library and as such about as accurate as the Xenology book that wants to tell you that Tau have toes instead of feet.
I like it, I have it (both editions, and the Munitorum Manual too!), but I'd not consider everything it says as 100% representative. Really, do you believe every single trooper is issued all the stuff from that huge list of equipment? Even the Rough Riders or the Vostroyans? In fact, the Mars-Pattern Lasgun supposedly having a charge slider clearly conflicts with GW's own information in the Inquisitor RPG.

But just on a hypothetical note, even if we take the IIUP as gospel, why do you think it should include (oh, and it doesn't) the heraldry of 1.000 Space Marine Chapters? Would it have enough pages? Do Imperial Guard regiments really operate right next to Astartes Chapter on daily routine?

1hadhq wrote:Fenris is classified as a deathworld IIRC. Its surface isn't stable except for the Fang and asaheim. Having a leader like Bucharis would explain why they may not have cared and the IG may been lost to natural disasters ( if we go for a believable end, not just Space wolf sagas ).

I wish it had been presented as a saga, that would make it easier to swallow.
That said, Fenris' harsh environment was at least mentioned as having finished off any survivors that were both left behind and not amongst those 10k that were killed by the SW.

1hadhq wrote:An example of such decree against anyone carriying the legacy of the Legions would be nice. I think this is something that only happens to those having weird names to begin with, whose place is with chaos as their fluff will be part of a CSM codex. So resistance is unneccessary.

You're avoiding the question. We're playing theoretical scenarios here. As in: how would it work if GW would actually be willing to sacrifice even the big names.

Hey, hey, hey.

Don't ignore Lynata's quote.

"Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies. This alone is of no concern to myself or the Order. [...]
During my service to the Order, I have heard many strange rumours concerning the Successor Chapters of the Blood Angels, but it is evident that the Fleshtearers have devolved far beyond any point reached by a loyalist Chapter. Either call in an Inquisitor or bring the Imperial Navy to bombard these animals from space, but my Order will not fight alongside the Fleshtearers again, I swear it. By the Immortal Emperor and everything I hold to be Holy, my Sisters will not risk themselves by allying with savages, regardless of your own wishes."
-- Canoness Carmina

Granted the SOB are very fond of torching stuff, but this still highlight how degenerate the Blood Angels and successors have become. They are two stumbles away from becoming worshipers of Khorne and IIRC the number of renegade Blood Angel successor chapters is by no means insignificant.