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1hadhq wrote:Counter question: Why would a actual line of products have no place in 40k background whilst out of print ( or deleted from their website ) products should count as valid source? So availability is part of what I am trying to say.

You prefer availability, I prefer consistency.

1hadhq wrote:The background moves on, it doesn't integrate all that has been before and it may just put things on a , as I will call it: reserve pile. It is not lost, just unused. This also has the effect that a change can happen without replacing the former background per 'official decree'.

Define "the background".
Even as per the various authors who write those novels that you hold dear, there is no singular version of the setting but numerous different interpretations. Even GW's own books are very open to interpretation (ironically, this makes them less prone to deviating from licensed material as they often omit details that various novels then present conflicting accounts of), but at the end of the day Gav Thorpe made it clear that the company is "cherrypicking" what stuff from the Black Library they actually want to fit into the studio vision (and which subsequently gets printed in GW books as well), and what to dismiss.

So, yes, the background moves on and it indeed does not integrate all that has been before. Contrary to your interpretation of this condition, however, it seems to me that it is largely Black Library novels and other licensed products that get ignored. On the other hand, even the oldest GW fluff gets reprinted from time to time. How often do we see people actually complaining about straight copypasta from older codices? Speaking of which, here's an interesting fact: The designer's notes for the WH Codex, an article which appeared in the White Dwarf, outright stated that the writers went back even up to the 1st edition Rogue Trader fluff to craft an image of the Ecclesiarchy and its forces that was consistent for over 15 years, including a reference to that image of "Sister Sin" shooting "Brother Vermillion".

1hadhq wrote:But there are also changes in the design team, the take on the 40k verse may have a general course but i doubt it is set in stone and the "replacements" may influence the compatibility of the background. So yes, I tend to stick with the most recent imagination to keep it close to what is known by as many actually active Hobbyists as possible.

It's true, small changes happen - see the Grey Knights or the Necrons for the most recent examples. I still don't see why you'd think that the imagination of countless individual novel writers should necessarily line up with the imagination of the team at GW? Do you see this happening here on the forums?
In the end, you'll still end up with a separate interpretation, a different pair of goggles to witness the world with.

I guess this is something we can only agree to disagree on, though. There is no "right" or "wrong" with this question, just priorities and perception.

1hadhq wrote:I see you agree that:
- we didn't get a definition of "it" from the OP.
- there is no doubt about their loyality in a period from the time of the Legions to M42.

Agreed on the latter. For the former, I simply assumed that OP was referring to the Blood Angels' geneseed corruption and its effects on their Battle Brothers. In which case I already said I don't agree that their situation requires outside intervention. My last comment on this was merely borne out of you seemingly ruling out any consequence "regardless of what 'it' is". Basically: if "it" will change in M42, their situation would have to be re-evaluated.

We both know that this will never happen due to timeline constraints, but in the spirit of the fluff, it should still be mentioned.

1hadhq wrote:But you think the victim of the collateral damage would matter, to which my reply is: did you see the common saying in those rulebooks about how much one will be missed? Sure you have specific victims in mind, but even then 'blue vs blue' accidents may happen in 40k. Generally imperials have a pretty good f/f identify system in place it seems. So IMO it had to be intended not-so-collateral damage to make this count against them.

Yes, "blue vs blue" happens all the time, involving nearly all of the Imperial Adepta. Still, some people are worth more than others, and this does not apply solely to Space Marines. The difficult thing is just that, compared to an Astartes Chapter's history and reputation, an Inquisitor's influence and allies as well as his rivals are largely concealed in the shadows, making it harder to assess how much weight his words would have. I could very well imagine that some Inquisitors would resort to sabotaging another's investigation just to discredit them within the organisation, and possibly see them accused themselves. At least this is how I imagine the Inquisition to work - their internal control mechanisms often being abused for petty squabbles on the lower levels, which may at times lead to the loss of millions of Guardsmen, or an entire Chapter of Astartes, fallen victim to political rivalries without even knowing it.
Such is life in the Imperium of Man. Grimdark.

Hey, apart from what sources we go by, we actually agree on stuff now!

 Lynata wrote:


Hey, apart from what sources we go by, we actually agree on stuff now!

 Lynata wrote:

n0t_u wrote:What's to say it hasn't happened in the past, been cleaned up and then hidden in order to keep the flawless appearance the founding chapter had managed to build itself over the years?

The two missing Legions?

Meant more as in heresy within chapters such as the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, etc.
They can't be as immune as the GK; perhaps they are as close as the SoB which would make sense somewhat. But, they do have pride in their history so I don't doubt if some were to fall within they'd have the issue dealt with and then possibly hidden.

n0t_u wrote:Meant more as in heresy within chapters such as the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, etc. They can't be as immune as the GK; perhaps they are as close as the SoB which would make sense somewhat. But, they do have pride in their history so I don't doubt if some were to fall within they'd have the issue dealt with and then possibly hidden.

Oh, you mean individuals or small groups? Yeah, of course that happens. Off the top of my head, I recall a bunch of Space Wolves who signed up with Huron Blackheart after killing their own brethren. About half of the original First Founding Legions turned to Chaos, it'd be naive to assume the rest would be immune to its temptations.

This wouldn't fall back on the entire Chapter, though, unless it'd become somewhat common and thus hint at something not being right. I could see the Inquisition helping out with keeping individual renegades a secret from the public, but given that all of this would not taint the Chapter as a whole it's not really relevant for the debate at hand. Now that you mention it, though, none of the First Founding Chapters have ever been sent on a punitive crusade, have they? That we know of, anyways.

And I wouldn't compare them to the SoB in this regard. The Adepta Sororitas practice a notably more altruistic lifestyle, embracing humility and sacrifice over honour and pride - not to mention that they are indoctrinated from infancy whereas Space Marines still have a "normal" childhood, often in feral conditions, which may slowly seep into a Chapter's own culture. The Sisters being way more resilient to Chaos is one of their major and oft-repeated themes, and pretty much their narrative "trade-off" for lacking the Astartes' genetic enhancements.
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion. No one is more devoted to the cause and cult of the Emperor than they."

Mainly because to purge the blood angels would be a massive waste of resources and ~half the space marines on the galaxy would want to put your nuts in a vice

 Lynata wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Meant more as in heresy within chapters such as the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, etc. They can't be as immune as the GK; perhaps they are as close as the SoB which would make sense somewhat. But, they do have pride in their history so I don't doubt if some were to fall within they'd have the issue dealt with and then possibly hidden.

Oh, you mean individuals or small groups? Yeah, of course that happens. Off the top of my head, I recall a bunch of Space Wolves who signed up with Huron Blackheart after killing their own brethren. About half of the original First Founding Legions turned to Chaos, it'd be naive to assume the rest would be immune to its temptations.

This wouldn't fall back on the entire Chapter, though, unless it'd become somewhat common and thus hint at something not being right. I could see the Inquisition helping out with keeping individual renegades a secret from the public, but given that all of this would not taint the Chapter as a whole it's not really relevant for the debate at hand. Now that you mention it, though, none of the First Founding Chapters have ever been sent on a punitive crusade, have they? That we know of, anyways.

And I wouldn't compare them to the SoB in this regard. The Adepta Sororitas practice a notably more altruistic lifestyle, embracing humility and sacrifice over honour and pride - not to mention that they are indoctrinated from infancy whereas Space Marines still have a "normal" childhood, often in feral conditions, which may slowly seep into a Chapter's own culture. The Sisters being way more resilient to Chaos is one of their major and oft-repeated themes, and pretty much their narrative "trade-off" for lacking the Astartes' genetic enhancements.
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion. No one is more devoted to the cause and cult of the Emperor than they."

Again and again and again, Wolf brothers were gene tempered instable sucessor Chapter - not the original Sons of Russ (who can't be corrupted IMHO,yeah that's right I've said that ),and they went renagade, not C-style...

And closer you are to fanaticism,like SoB - you are closer to chaos(one way or another)....Like Tadashi said, if you ignore and rationalize C-gods and existance of any GOD you are on the good path - SoB,Cardinals and rest of them are not...

P.S.If the Emp was alive he would burn them...

DarthMarko wrote:Again and again and again, Wolf brothers were gene tempered instable sucessor Chapter - not the original Sons of Russ (who can't be corrupted IMHO,yeah that's right I've said that ),and they went renagade, not C-style...

They bear the Mark of Chaos on their armour, that makes them CSMs in my book.

DarthMarko wrote:And closer you are to fanaticism,like SoB - you are closer to chaos(one way or another)....Like Tadashi said, if you ignore and rationalize C-gods and existance of any GOD you are on the good path - SoB,Cardinals and rest of them are not...
P.S.If the Emp was alive he would burn them...

Are you trying to taunt me?

Unlike some people, I fully embrace the greyness and imperfection of the factions in this Grimdark setting and don't try to see my favoured army as some infallible almighty entity that is able to claim moral or martial superiority in all things. It's much more fun this way, at least for me.

 Lynata wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:Again and again and again, Wolf brothers were gene tempered instable sucessor Chapter - not the original Sons of Russ (who can't be corrupted IMHO,yeah that's right I've said that ),and they went renagade, not C-style...

They bear the Mark of Chaos on their armour, that makes them CSMs in my book.

DarthMarko wrote:And closer you are to fanaticism,like SoB - you are closer to chaos(one way or another)....Like Tadashi said, if you ignore and rationalize C-gods and existance of any GOD you are on the good path - SoB,Cardinals and rest of them are not...
P.S.If the Emp was alive he would burn them...

Are you trying to taunt me?

Unlike some people, I fully embrace the greyness and imperfection of the factions in this Grimdark setting and don't try to see my favoured army as some infallible almighty entity that is able to claim moral or martial superiority in all things. It's much more fun this way, at least for me.

Well ,maybe not, but you still use =I= point of view, and defend them like they are ultimate IoM weapon - which they are not, and will always be beneath mighty adeptus astartes...

First thing I would do in IoM is crush\burn the fanatics,leave the =I= how it was in the begining(real secret) and bring back SM to preech IT ....now tell me - would world then be a better place?

DarthMarko wrote:Well ,maybe not, but you still use =I= point of view, and defend them like they are ultimate IoM weapon

No. I use the "=I= point of view" because that is how the Imperium operates. Because that is the perspective through which top-decisions must be seen to be understood. Because that is quite simply how the setting works.

DarthMarko wrote:First thing I would do in IoM is crush\burn the fanatics,leave the =I= how it was in the begining(real secret) and bring back SM to preech IT ....now tell me - would world then be a better place?

Yes. But why on Earth would I want 40k to be less grimdark?
And this novel-spawned "Imperial Truth" has no effect on Chaos; we've already had that discussion before.

Also, the "ultimate weapon" would be the Imperial Guard, the Hammer of the Emperor. Scalpels are undoubtedly useful, but if the IoM would have to choose between the two ... it could do without the Space Marines, but it could not do without the billions of Guardsmen tasked with holding front lines which stretch across entire star systems.

 Lynata wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:Well ,maybe not, but you still use =I= point of view, and defend them like they are ultimate IoM weapon

No. I use the "=I= point of view" because that is how the Imperium operates. Because that is the perspective through which top-decisions must be seen to be understood. Because that is quite simply how the setting works.

DarthMarko wrote:First thing I would do in IoM is crush\burn the fanatics,leave the =I= how it was in the begining(real secret) and bring back SM to preech IT ....now tell me - would world then be a better place?

Yes. But why on Earth would I want 40k to be less grimdark?
And this novel-spawned "Imperial Truth" has no effect on Chaos; we've already had that discussion before.

Also, the "ultimate weapon" would be the Imperial Guard, the Hammer of the Emperor. Scalpels are undoubtedly useful, but if the IoM would have to choose between the two ... it could do without the Space Marines, but it could not do without the billions of Guardsmen tasked with holding front lines which stretch across entire star systems.

You mean they could do without SoB and the semi autonomus human Inqusitors and so called Cardinals, but no way without AA...IoM would would be like a headless chicken

 DarthMarko wrote:
P.S.If the Emp was alive he would burn them...

I really don't like how people keep saying this as it's ignoring the simple and obvious fact that the Custodes, probably the ONLY faction that knows and sticks to the Emperor's plans and his will, both attempted to peacefully resolve the Age of Apostasy by leaving several of their own members as hostages with the Brides of the Emperor and then publically spoke up in support of them to the rest of the High Lords, knowing full well what kind of political pull they have.

If the Emperor was going to have them all burned then the Custodes would have done so long ago or even simply ignored them during the AoA and let the rest of the Imperium do it for them.

The Emperor would fix the Blood Angels, not burn them.

 Kettu wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
P.S.If the Emp was alive he would burn them...

I really don't like how people keep saying this as it's ignoring the simple and obvious fact that the Custodes, probably the ONLY faction that knows and sticks to the Emperor's plans and his will, both attempted to peacefully resolve the Age of Apostasy by leaving several of their own members as hostages with the Brides of the Emperor and then publically spoke up in support of them to the rest of the High Lords, knowing full well what kind of political pull they have.

If the Emperor was going to have them all burned then the Custodes would have done so long ago or even simply ignored them during the AoA and let the rest of the Imperium do it for them.

That doesn't change the fact that in time of great crusade when Emp walked they would have been mauled without a flinch...and again I said Emp - not Custodes


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Emperor would fix the Blood Angels, not burn them.

I am talking about SoB not the BA....
and we know how Emp fixes things :-) He fixed one missing legion.....

 DarthMarko wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that in time of great crusade when Emp walked they would have been mauled without a flinch...and again I said Emp - not Custodes

30,000 years is a long time ago and you are basing it all off how he was 10,000 years prior to current.
And besides, that outlook was simply to keep everyone in the dark about Chaos.
We saw how well that worked out.

As it stands, the Custodes are the only faction around to offer any insight into the Emperors current wants and wills, and they fully support the Sisterhood as an establishment. force and faction.
And you know, Alicia and her officers of the-then Brides of the Emperor have stood before the Golden Throne and something actually happened in there as their hair was snow-white as they left and they had each seen a vision of where they should direct their future. I'm certain that counts as 'supporting' them also.
Ergo, Emperor supports the Sisters.

 DarthMarko wrote:

Again and again and again, Wolf brothers were gene tempered instable sucessor Chapter - not the original Sons of Russ (who can't be corrupted IMHO,yeah that's right I've said that ),and they went renagade, not C-style...

And closer you are to fanaticism,like SoB - you are closer to chaos(one way or another)....Like Tadashi said, if you ignore and rationalize C-gods and existance of any GOD you are on the good path - SoB,Cardinals and rest of them are not...

P.S.If the Emp was alive he would burn them...

Hmm, let's see. Total number of Sisters of Battle that has willingly joined Chaos: 1. Total number of Space Wolves or Space Wolf descendants that have joined Chaos: >1.

As for the bolded part: Grey Knights. Enough with the "Space Wolves are the bestest!" already, we get it, you like Space Wolves. Just stop spouting unsubstantiated hyperbole about how good they are.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Again and again and again, Wolf brothers were gene tempered instable sucessor Chapter - not the original Sons of Russ (who can't be corrupted IMHO,yeah that's right I've said that ),and they went renagade, not C-style...

And closer you are to fanaticism,like SoB - you are closer to chaos(one way or another)....Like Tadashi said, if you ignore and rationalize C-gods and existance of any GOD you are on the good path - SoB,Cardinals and rest of them are not...

P.S.If the Emp was alive he would burn them...

Hmm, let's see. Total number of Sisters of Battle that has willingly joined Chaos: 1. Total number of Space Wolves or Space Wolf descendants that have joined Chaos: >1.

As for the bolded part: Grey Knights. Enough with the "Space Wolves are the bestest!" already, we get it, you like Space Wolves. Just stop spouting unsubstantiated hyperbole about how good they are.

I'm comparing preheresy adeptus astartes and the Emperor with corrupt system which is now....I'm not bringing wolves into the discussion (althou they did hammer the worms once or twice)...
Now if you want to say something speak how much their extreme mesures of repression and fanatism are bringing favor from C-gods...

DarthMarko wrote:You mean they could do without SoB and the semi autonomus human Inqusitors and so called Cardinals, but no way without AA...IoM would would be like a headless chicken

Uhm, no?
The Imperium could do without the Adepta Sororitas as well as without the Adeptus Astartes. Neither is a military force that is of critical importance. They're both nice to have as they can change the course of a battle, but they are too few to come remotely close to the necessity of the Imperial Guard and the Navy.

Inquisitors and Cardinals are necessary for maintaining politial stability. Maybe the Imperium could do without Inquisitors (by installing alternate safeguards like granting the Arbites more power) - but regarding the Cardinals, to me it seems obvious that humanity in this setting is too dependent on belief in a higher power. The Imperial Creed unites the people and aids them in overcoming incredible odds by boosting their morale.
I suppose if people wouldn't grow up believing the Emperor is a god, they might be much more susceptible to the lure of the Dark Powers. After all, with whom would you rather throw in your lot ... the mere human High Lords on faraway Terra who have no idea your planet even exists, or the Chaos Gods whose cultist emissaries may offer you "true power" right here and right now? Just believing that the Emperor is much more than a vegetable shackled to the Golden Throne, and that he actually cares about your fate and may extend his hand in a divine interpretation to help you adds a lot of stability to people's lives, no matter the truth. And that's even before you factor in the effect of people fearing what would happen to them (or their "immortal souls") if they disappoint Him-on-Earth.

The blood angels have Mephiston. There ain't no inquisitor who wants to mess with that.

Amon wrote:
The blood angels have Mephiston. There ain't no inquisitor who wants to mess with that.

Null staves would do interesting things to him...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Amon wrote:
The blood angels have Mephiston. There ain't no inquisitor who wants to mess with that.

Null staves would do interesting things to him...

Wot use say? Witchy powers no worky?

EAT HOT PLASMA DEATH PURITAN!!!