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2012/08/31 18:33:05
Subject: Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
Yes, the catholic organizations should be forced to cover it. If their employees don't agree with their doctrine, then forcing it on the employees for entirely financial reasons disguised as theological ones (a theological reason which apparently most of their constituents don't even agree with). Certainly this is a far more important issue than some twit who wants to wear a skirt in a kitchen. -- if that girl gets defended to hell and back for her religious beliefs, why wouldn't you also defend sane, rational people who want to be covered by their health care plans as well. You know, an actual issue that has an effect on something other than the enormously inflated egos of religious media.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/31 18:34:22
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/08/31 18:34:55
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
“It doesn’t matter what you meant. What matters is what youconveyed.”
The president’s comment implies that business owners are ignorant of all the benefits they get from government. And it makes Obama’s supporters look unaware of all that government gets out of businesses and how political decisions affect entrepreneurs. Ask a business owner if they feel like they get more out of the government than they give. Sure, it helps that the city paves the road that was there for 20 years before they opened their business, and maybe they are grateful for that new traffic light. They understand that the local police protect their livelihoods. On the other hand, do politicians not appreciate that business owners match every dollar their employees contribute to Social Security and Medicare? Do politicians not understand when they are patting themselves on the back for raising minimum wage that somewhere, some shop owner is reaching for the ulcer medication while he weighs whether to raise prices, cut back employee hours, or rethink his hours of operation?
If you run a business and you profit margins are so thin that paying your employees another $0.25 an hour will put a strain on your business, then your business is failing.
"I need people to work for me for free" = you have failed as a business owner, were destined to do so from the start, and I am unsympathetic.
Dude... where did I imply this?
Talk about strawman...
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2012/08/31 18:34:59
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
Melissia wrote: Yes, the catholic organizations should be forced to cover it.
So their religious rights don't matter?
If their employees don't agree with their doctrine, then forcing it on the employees for entirely financial reasons disguised as theological ones (a theological reason which apparently most of their constituents don't even agree with).
Who's FORCING them to work for this institution? It's a PRIVATE organization ran according to their belief... if an employee disagrees with them, they don't have to work there.
And also, contraception is cheeeeeeap. This isn't about cost, it's about their belief.
Certainly this is a far more important issue than some twit who wants to wear a skirt in a kitchen. -- if that girl gets defended to hell and back for her religious beliefs, why wouldn't you also defend sane, rational people who want to be covered by their health care plans as well. You know, an actual issue that has an effect on something other than the enormously inflated egos of religious media.
THAT argument was really about safety.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2012/08/31 18:45:37
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
2. Clarify or did you miss the part about "remaining poor".
Most academics don't make much money once you factor in student loans, other debt incurred during education (especially PhD education), and the extremely limited job market. It isn't uncommon to find people with advanced degrees working relatively low paying jobs while paying out on debt that is equivalent to holding 2-3 car loans. You can try for work in the private sector, but even then researchers aren't especially well paid (and the job market is extremely competitive), certainly less so than people holding professional degrees who also tend to be sitting on a fair bit of work experience and at least a year of gainful employment (particularly lawyers).
Also, you have to consider what type of science you're actually good at. For example, physics majors have a higher rate of unemployment than political science majors, and math majors (granted, its not really a science) have a higher rate of unemployment than journalism majors. And the kicker? Music education majors have a lower rate of unemployment than just about everyone.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/08/31 18:46:28
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
Amaya wrote: Behold the rights of Christians and Christian organizations are inferior to the rights of others.
Government telling 1 business that they cannot refuse to cover something, religious persecution.
A business telling 500 employees that they have to follow the same religious standards as the business and will not get birth control pills, freedom of religion.
If I was a Muslim or Jewish business I would find the most outrageous thing to refuse to my employees based on my holy text, just so that it would force people to really take a look at the issue.
Isn't there a business owner somewhere that is a Pastafarian that could swing something like that?
2012/08/31 18:47:23
Subject: Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
whembly wrote: It's a PRIVATE organization ran according to their belief... if an employee disagrees with them, they don't have to work there.
Tell that to the idiots who argue that Burger King should have to make accommodations to the girl
whembly wrote: And also, contraception is cheeeeeeap. This isn't about cost [...] THAT argument was really about safety.
I'm not foolish enough to really believe that.
It had nothing to do with safety, and everything to do with a calculated attempt to garner support from the religious base for the sake of attempting to pad Romney's votes in the upcoming election. And that is pretty much blatantly what it is. Just like the stories about Romney's cayman islands yacht are the same thing for the Democrats.
The same general crap that's been going on since the start of hte year, if not sooner. Frankly, I'm running out of feths to give.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/31 18:48:42
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/08/31 18:53:23
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
So, the Catholic organizations have no rights... that is just wrong.
whembly wrote: It's a PRIVATE organization ran according to their belief... if an employee disagrees with them, they don't have to work there.
Tell that to the idiots who argue that Burger King should have to make accommodations to the girl
Hey... I'm right there with you here... :highfive:
whembly wrote: And also, contraception is cheeeeeeap. This isn't about cost
[...]
THAT argument was really about safety.
I'm not foolish enough to really believe that.
It had nothing to do with safety, and everything to do with a calculated attempt to garner support from the religious base for the sake of attempting to pad Romney's votes in the upcoming election. And that is pretty much blatantly what it is. Just like the stories about Romney's cayman islands yacht are the same thing for the Democrats.
The same general crap that's been going on since the start of hte year, if not sooner. Frankly, I'm running out of feths to give.
They've ALWAYS believed in that... had nothing to do with "objecting this to gather Romney votes"
For as loooooooooong as I can remember, the Catholic Organizations has NEVER covered contraceptives.
I've got family members (and non-catholic teachers!) who works for the Dioceses and it's never been covered.
If anything, those lawsuits will be the one that'll remove the mandate to ACA... which cannot be ruled until 2014 (when most of it goes into effect).
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2012/08/31 19:03:42
Subject: Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
By forcing Christian organizations to provide their employees contraceptives you are infringing on their beliefs. As abstinence has not yet been proven to have killed anyone outside of a few sex addicted followers of Bacchus, I do not see a problem with it. It is as not as if these companies are somehow infringing on their employee's rights.
Why you would go work for a private Christian organization when you are not Christian or at least sympathetic to them is beyond me. Forcing them to hand out contraceptives to them is akin to forcing them to condone sexual promiscuity which is utterly repulsive to their beliefs.
Is that business forced to operate in the United States? No, they can go to a country that wouldn't force them to provide that service
Wait...isn't that...out sourcing......best Tau voice "Aaahhhh I see what your doing"
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2012/08/31 19:09:53
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
“It doesn’t matter what you meant. What matters is what youconveyed.”
The president’s comment implies that business owners are ignorant of all the benefits they get from government. And it makes Obama’s supporters look unaware of all that government gets out of businesses and how political decisions affect entrepreneurs. Ask a business owner if they feel like they get more out of the government than they give. Sure, it helps that the city paves the road that was there for 20 years before they opened their business, and maybe they are grateful for that new traffic light. They understand that the local police protect their livelihoods. On the other hand, do politicians not appreciate that business owners match every dollar their employees contribute to Social Security and Medicare? Do politicians not understand when they are patting themselves on the back for raising minimum wage that somewhere, some shop owner is reaching for the ulcer medication while he weighs whether to raise prices, cut back employee hours, or rethink his hours of operation?
If you run a business and you profit margins are so thin that paying your employees another $0.25 an hour will put a strain on your business, then your business is failing.
"I need people to work for me for free" = you have failed as a business owner, were destined to do so from the start, and I am unsympathetic.
Dude... where did I imply this?
Talk about strawman...
You implied it right here:
Do politicians not understand when they are patting themselves on the back for raising minimum wage that somewhere, some shop owner is reaching for the ulcer medication while he weighs whether to raise prices, cut back employee hours, or rethink his hours of operation?
Amaya wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Amaya wrote: Behold the rights of Christians and Christian organizations are inferior to the rights of others.
Government telling 1 business that they cannot refuse to cover something, religious persecution.
A business telling 500 employees that they have to follow the same religious standards as the business and will not get birth control pills, freedom of religion.
If I was a Muslim or Jewish business I would find the most outrageous thing to refuse to my employees based on my holy text, just so that it would force people to really take a look at the issue.
Isn't there a business owner somewhere that is a Pastafarian that could swing something like that?
Are those people forced to work at that business? No. If you have a situation where you have a private Christian school they are now forced to provide contraceptives. That is not right and excessive interference.
I don't think you understand this: corporations are not people. Corporations to not have freedom of religion. Only individuals have freedom of religion. That means any individual cannot be forced to practice someone else's religion, but that same individual cannot force someone else to practice theirs. If a corporation is required to provide health care that includes contraceptives to a person, and that person's beliefs do not warrant it, then that person has the right to not take those contraceptive measures. But no private instituation has the right to deny another person access to those contraceptives based on religious grounds. And if that means the private institution is required to pay for health care which includes contraception, then that's the way it goes. Religious freedom does not allow a corporation, lacking in individual rights, to deny things to individuals based upon the corporation's religious beliefs.
2012/08/31 19:10:00
Subject: Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
Amaya wrote: By forcing Christian organizations to provide their employees contraceptives you are infringing on their beliefs. As abstinence has not yet been proven to have killed anyone outside of a few sex addicted followers of Bacchus, I do not see a problem with it. It is as not as if these companies are somehow infringing on their employee's rights.
Why you would go work for a private Christian organization when you are not Christian or at least sympathetic to them is beyond me. Forcing them to hand out contraceptives to them is akin to forcing them to condone sexual promiscuity which is utterly repulsive to their beliefs.
Religious Freedom means that nobody can force their belief on anybody else.
Nobody is forcing Catholics to take birth control pills. They only thing they are forced to do is stop using their belief to deny coverage to people that don't have the same belief.
Does this sound like religious freedom:
"You are not allowed to get birth control through our insurance to treat your ovarian cysts because I think that women shouldn't take birth control."
2012/08/31 19:12:32
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
d-usa wrote: Is that business forced to operate in the United States? No, they can go to a country that wouldn't force them to provide that service.
Incidentally there are not really that many country out there where they could get away with that.
Can you not see that these religious institutions have grounds on this?
I'm surprise you're not advocating for clarification/expansion of the "consciencs clause" in order to save the ACA mandate.
No, I don't see how a business can force it's religious views on their employees.
Whatever your religious beliefs are, they are yours. And even if you own your business you have zero right to force it onto your employees.
If you can argue that "employees don't have to work for them if they don't like it" then we can also argue that the business has zero right to be in the US and they can always go somewhere else. Nobody forces that business to open in the US, but if they do they have to follow the same rules as everybody else, regardless of religion. Good luck finding a country that lets you get away with not providing the same benefits as everybody else.
2012/08/31 19:16:38
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
Amaya wrote: By forcing Christian organizations to provide their employees contraceptives you are infringing on their beliefs. As abstinence has not yet been proven to have killed anyone outside of a few sex addicted followers of Bacchus, I do not see a problem with it. It is as not as if these companies are somehow infringing on their employee's rights.
Why you would go work for a private Christian organization when you are not Christian or at least sympathetic to them is beyond me. Forcing them to hand out contraceptives to them is akin to forcing them to condone sexual promiscuity which is utterly repulsive to their beliefs.
Religious Freedom means that nobody can force their belief on anybody else.
Nobody is forcing Catholics to take birth control pills. They only thing they are forced to do is stop using their belief to deny coverage to people that don't have the same belief.
Does this sound like religious freedom:
"You are not allowed to get birth control through our insurance to treat your ovarian cysts because I think that women shouldn't take birth control."
How is not providing the same as denying? You are twisting the issue.
How is forcing Catholics to provide a service violating their belief that Catholics shouldn't swallow the pill? You are twisting the issue.
2012/08/31 19:17:41
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
“It doesn’t matter what you meant. What matters is what youconveyed.”
The president’s comment implies that business owners are ignorant of all the benefits they get from government. And it makes Obama’s supporters look unaware of all that government gets out of businesses and how political decisions affect entrepreneurs. Ask a business owner if they feel like they get more out of the government than they give. Sure, it helps that the city paves the road that was there for 20 years before they opened their business, and maybe they are grateful for that new traffic light. They understand that the local police protect their livelihoods. On the other hand, do politicians not appreciate that business owners match every dollar their employees contribute to Social Security and Medicare? Do politicians not understand when they are patting themselves on the back for raising minimum wage that somewhere, some shop owner is reaching for the ulcer medication while he weighs whether to raise prices, cut back employee hours, or rethink his hours of operation?
If you run a business and you profit margins are so thin that paying your employees another $0.25 an hour will put a strain on your business, then your business is failing.
"I need people to work for me for free" = you have failed as a business owner, were destined to do so from the start, and I am unsympathetic.
[/spoiler]
Dude... where did I imply this?
Talk about strawman...
You implied it right here:
Do politicians not understand when they are patting themselves on the back for raising minimum wage that somewhere, some shop owner is reaching for the ulcer medication while he weighs whether to raise prices, cut back employee hours, or rethink his hours of operation?
Great... so anytime I startup a business, it's always so successful that I wouldn't have to worry about that... I demand to know where you hide your meds! I.WANT.SOME.OF.THAT.
Spoiler:
Amaya wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Amaya wrote: Behold the rights of Christians and Christian organizations are inferior to the rights of others.
Government telling 1 business that they cannot refuse to cover something, religious persecution.
A business telling 500 employees that they have to follow the same religious standards as the business and will not get birth control pills, freedom of religion.
If I was a Muslim or Jewish business I would find the most outrageous thing to refuse to my employees based on my holy text, just so that it would force people to really take a look at the issue.
Isn't there a business owner somewhere that is a Pastafarian that could swing something like that?
Are those people forced to work at that business? No. If you have a situation where you have a private Christian school they are now forced to provide contraceptives. That is not right and excessive interference.
I don't think you understand this: corporations are not people. Corporations to not have freedom of religion. Only individuals have freedom of religion. That means any individual cannot be forced to practice someone else's religion, but that same individual cannot force someone else to practice theirs. If a corporation is required to provide health care that includes contraceptives to a person, and that person's beliefs do not warrant it, then that person has the right to not take those contraceptive measures. But no private instituation has the right to deny another person access to those contraceptives based on religious grounds. And if that means the private institution is required to pay for health care which includes contraception, then that's the way it goes. Religious freedom does not allow a corporation, lacking in individual rights, to deny things to individuals based upon the corporation's religious beliefs.
You just don't get it do you?
Those corporations are RAN by people with religious principles!
This is one of the bedrocks that is founded upon this country where people can congregate and live as they choose...
But no private instituation has the right to deny another person access to those contraceptives based on religious grounds.
This is so wrong...
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2012/08/31 19:17:59
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
Amaya wrote:Azazel you fail to recognize that not providing is the not the same as denying.
By forcing all religious organizations to provide contraceptives to their employees you are dictating morality to every institution that has employees be it a church, temple, mosque, school, whatever.
Then you go and cry when someone attempts to dictate morality to you. You can not have it both ways.
If I want to open a business, there are rules that I have to follow. If I don't like those rules, then I am not allowed to open my business. I do not get to ignore the rules because of regligious beliefs. Otherwise, I could open a restaurant, violate every health code in the book, and then claim that my religious beliefs do not allow cleaning products to be used or chicken and pork to be fully cooked.
But I can't do that. Because the laws of society supercede the laws of magic sky men. If you do not like the laws of society, then you are free to not be a part of society. By operating within society, you are tacitly accepting its laws, whether you agree with them or not. You need to read more Hobbes.
2012/08/31 19:20:16
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
whembly wrote: Melissia... I understand your position... I really do.
I believe you.
whembly wrote: So, the Catholic organizations have no rights... that is just wrong.
They have whatever privileges are given to them by the government; not being people, that's all that they can ever have.
whembly wrote: They've ALWAYS believed in that... had nothing to do with "objecting this to gather Romney votes"
I was referring to the media storm surrounding the two incidents, not the belief set. Although I will note, most Catholics don't agree with their church on contraception.
The fact that the media storms are hypocritical and contradictory only adds to my annoyance.
whembly wrote: If anything, those lawsuits will be the one that'll remove the mandate to ACA... which cannot be ruled until 2014 (when most of it goes into effect).
It's already been declared constitutional in the supreme court. It's not likely to get there again any time soon.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/31 19:22:49
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/08/31 19:21:54
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
Amaya wrote:Azazel you fail to recognize that not providing is the not the same as denying.
By forcing all religious organizations to provide contraceptives to their employees you are dictating morality to every institution that has employees be it a church, temple, mosque, school, whatever.
Then you go and cry when someone attempts to dictate morality to you. You can not have it both ways.
If I want to open a business, there are rules that I have to follow. If I don't like those rules, then I am not allowed to open my business. I do not get to ignore the rules because of regligious beliefs.
Do you not understand that you are arguing that PLACES OF WORSHIP should be FORCED to provide contraceptives to their employees.
And yet you are arguing that having a religious organization making medical decision based on their dogma doesn't equal forging their religious values on their employees
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/31 19:26:01
2012/08/31 19:26:46
Subject: Re:Religious Minority Want a Theocracy to Force Morality on Citizens
Amaya wrote: It is akin to forcing pacifists to fight a war.
If they are force feeding contraceptive pills to Catholics, then you might have a point.
But forcing Catholic organizations to pay for birth control is no different than forcing pacifists to pay for war. Which is actually happening right now.
