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Smash Attacks are not normal attacks (IMO) and as such cannot be forced by MSS. Smash replaces your normal attacks with something completely different, similar to Sicarius' Coup de Grace attack or Yriel's Eye of Wrath.

Happyjew wrote:
Smash Attacks are not normal attacks (IMO) and as such cannot be forced by MSS. Smash replaces your normal attacks with something completely different, similar to Sicarius' Coup de Grace attack or Yriel's Eye of Wrath.

I don't think the debate is whether you can use smash attacks against the MSS target, it's whether or not the smash attack actually goes off if they failed the MSS leadership test. Which in my opinion, it does not.

Sorry, I meant HoW. I also wasn't saying you could elect to do smash attacks with an MSS target, simply that claiming your MC is doing that would (by others claims) bypass MSS. Which it doesn't. But no, you can't use smash attacks with MSS.

The problem is there is no definition of "normal attacks" or "attacking normally". IMO "normal attacks" are the ones listed in the statline (as modified) at the statline Initiative (as modified). So for example, a Tervigon with Warp Speed and Crushing Claws on the charge would get
Hammer of Wrath and 4 + D3 + D3 normal attacks at Initiative 1.

Luide wrote: This I dispute. 'Additional' is not synonym for 'normal'. Normal means ordinary, and HoW doesn't grant any ordinary attack. And it definitely does not modify Attack statistic.

In this context? yes it is. 'Additional' means 'another one of the same' in this case.

Sure it does. Previously the model had X attacks. Now the model has X+1 attacks, with the additional one being further modified as happening at initiative 10 and using the models unmodified strength score.

Happyjew wrote:
The problem is there is no definition of "normal attacks" or "attacking normally". IMO "normal attacks" are the ones listed in the statline (as modified) at the statline Initiative (as modified). So for example, a Tervigon with Warp Speed and Crushing Claws on the charge would get
Hammer of Wrath and 4 + D3 + D3 normal attacks at Initiative 1.

You're right, there's no flat out definition of "normal attacks", so it has to be defined somehow since there is a rule (or rules?) that affect that. personally I feel the easiest way to define 'normal attacks' is to say any and all attacks that happen at an initiative step are 'normal'. Quite honestly, since all MC (and others, but only using MC for reference) have HoW now how is it not "normal" for them? You see what I mean? Do we define normal at the basest sense or do we define normal as we come to it?

Take GK for instance, their halberds add +2 initiative. It doesn't actually change their statline (any init tests are still done at 4) but now they're attacks aren't "normal" simply for going at a different initiative step? Sure, it's still their Attacks they're doing at that step, but as I said all MC have HoW which means they "all" have +1 init10 attack. That's not normal for them now?

coredump wrote:


So... what is 'normal'??

I would say any attack that occurs in the assault phase for the simplicity of it.

Fragile wrote:

coredump wrote:


So... what is 'normal'??

I would say any attack that occurs in the assault phase for the simplicity of it.

I wouldn't. The attacks from lightning fields, snap fire shots, the purifiers psychic ability, etc. clearly not normal attacks, some even ranged.

Does this help?

Neorealist wrote:Normal in this case encompasses any attacks made as part of the assault phase, basically anything which can be construed as a 'melee' or 'close combat' attack that is not otherwise explicitly defined as something 'special' (such as a special ability or psychic attack)

 Neorealist wrote:

Luide wrote: This I dispute. 'Additional' is not synonym for 'normal'. Normal means ordinary, and HoW doesn't grant any ordinary attack. And it definitely does not modify Attack statistic.

In this context? yes it is. 'Additional' means 'another one of the same' in this case.

But problem is that it isn't 'another one of the same'. Unless you claim that HoW attack rolls to hit, is made at models Initiative step and benefits from models weapons and Smash USR. So it is obvious additional attack granted by HoW is not 'another one of the same' and thus not 'normal'.
Even if there was special set rule saying "models Attack characteristic is 0" you'd still get to make HoW attack, as HoW does not increase Attack characteristic. Same goes for Servo-arms btw.

For additional attacks, I'd go for following definition of normal: "Additional attack is 'normal attack' if it works exactly same as if the model had increased its Attack characteristic by one (assuming this increase was not subject to Multiple Modifiers rule on page 2). "

Kevin949 defined " 'normal attacks' as attacks' "any and all attacks that happen at an initiative step are 'normal' " which is IMO pretty good definition, only thing I'd add is the "that have same STR, AP and special rules". Otherwise additional attacks granted by Servo-arm change from 'special' to 'normal' if you charge through difficult terrain, which is counter-intuitive.

I think Happyjews definition is clear and self-consistent.
Neorealists definition has huge problem: It does not define what is 'special' (ie. not 'normal'), except by arbitrately stating that 'psychic' is 'special. That makes it circular definition: Attack is 'normal' unless it is 'special'.
And it also works strangely with his position that attack granted by HoW, an Universal Special Rule is not 'special'.

HoW attacks are normal for jump infantry. It is quite ordinary for a jump infantry unit using it's jetpack to assault making a HoW attack. It's even made in initiative order. If it was made before I10 then I'd agree it's not normal.

To say it's not normal is a slippery slope which you cannot arbitrarily decide where "normal" ends. Is an attack with a Krak grenade normal? Not for gretchin, but for marines yes it is.

Following RAW the HoW attack is lost. However for narrative I'd be willing to play it that the HoW attack hits and the rest of the attacks are under MSS.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
HoW attacks are normal for jump infantry. It is quite ordinary for a jump infantry unit using it's jetpack to assault making a HoW attack. It's even made in initiative order. If it was made before I10 then I'd agree it's not normal.

To say it's not normal is a slippery slope which you cannot arbitrarily decide where "normal" ends. Is an attack with a Krak grenade normal? Not for gretchin, but for marines yes it is.

Following RAW the HoW attack is lost. However for narrative I'd be willing to play it that the HoW attack hits and the rest of the attacks are under MSS.

Except JI don't always get HoW. For them it is situational (why can I not spell the underlined word?)

Happyjew wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
HoW attacks are normal for jump infantry. It is quite ordinary for a jump infantry unit using it's jetpack to assault making a HoW attack. It's even made in initiative order. If it was made before I10 then I'd agree it's not normal.

To say it's not normal is a slippery slope which you cannot arbitrarily decide where "normal" ends. Is an attack with a Krak grenade normal? Not for gretchin, but for marines yes it is.

Following RAW the HoW attack is lost. However for narrative I'd be willing to play it that the HoW attack hits and the rest of the attacks are under MSS.

Except JI don't always get HoW. For them it is situational (why can I not spell the underlined word?)

Normally when you charge a MC gets HoW. This is situational, yet most would say its normal. Can you even give an instance where a MC does not get a HoW when charging into BtB?

Any melee attack made during the fight subphase would be "normal" Whether it can always do something all the time shouldnt be a factor.

Happyjew wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
HoW attacks are normal for jump infantry. It is quite ordinary for a jump infantry unit using it's jetpack to assault making a HoW attack. It's even made in initiative order. If it was made before I10 then I'd agree it's not normal.

To say it's not normal is a slippery slope which you cannot arbitrarily decide where "normal" ends. Is an attack with a Krak grenade normal? Not for gretchin, but for marines yes it is.

Following RAW the HoW attack is lost. However for narrative I'd be willing to play it that the HoW attack hits and the rest of the attacks are under MSS.

Except JI don't always get HoW. For them it is situational (why can I not spell the underlined word?)

When using it's jump pack to charge, the JP unit normally makes a HoW hit.

But if they do not use their Jump Packs to charge the y do not get HoW.

It isn't "normal attacks" that we should be talking about, MSS is "instead of attacking normally". That means the MSS attacks are instead of what you would have normally done (if MSS had failed) during the init steps in this fight subphase. That could be 2 swings at Initiative 4, or it could be an attack at Init 10, 2 at init 4, and 1 at Init step 1.

So, HOW attacks are part of what you would have done if things were normal (MSS wasn't there), therefore they don't happen if you fail your MSS LD roll.

Don't just look at monstrous creatures, look at all affected units. The only units that get it are those that successfully charge and end its charge move in base to base contact with one or more enemy models. Would you give a HoW attack to a character that accepts a challenge even though he did not make it into base to base contact with his charge move? I wouldn't as he did not fulfill the requirement. You can only figure out the number of HoW attacks when you count the number of models in base contact at the end of the charge move, which takes place long before you figure out if MSS works or not, you only resolve the hits at I10.