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2012/08/31 05:39:21
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
Yes, hydra would certainly end my flier problems straight away.
The problem, though, is that I don't only face fliers and skimmers. I have in the past two games, but those aren't the only two players at my flgs. Someone mentioned just having two list, the f-flyers list and the everybody else. I'd like to avoid that as much as possible, of course. In a way, I think that's a bit of the problem with the hydras. They're tailored against fliers, but they're kind of weak against most else.
Going back over my recent battle reports, I've been asking myself if I could have afforded to run a list with that many hydras, looking at the non-flier games I've played. The answer is closer to "no" than I would care to admit. For example, taking out a unit of stormtroopers when there is also a lot of power armor makes me a touch queasy.
Really, there seem to be two philosophies in conflict here. Do you take the bare minimum of what you need for everything else, and pack in the rest with anti-flier, or do you bring just enough anti-flier, and pack the rest in with everything else. I've been leaning towards the latter, of course, because I want to find the way to handle flier armies without resorting to the obvious options. If I'm successful, I'll have more points to throw at other stuff and have a better list over all compared to lists that are burdened with a dedicated anti-flier faction.
Honestly, it seems like a matter of patience, rather than of possibility. At any time, I could just throw three vendettas or 9 hydras in my list and just give the middle finger to flier lists. Or I could keep two lists. Or I could refuse to play against people with fliers. I'd rather not do any of that, though.
As I mentioned before, I'm trying to add to what it means to be a guard commander. If I'm not innovating, well, I'm just another regular guard player, and who wants that?
I do feel like I'm starting to get close to the answer to two questions. The first is "how do I advance upfield?" and the second is "how do I handle fliers?" If I can answer these questions with a solution other than "you need to take vendettas to win with guard", I feel like I'll have really made a contribution to our corpus of guard knowledge here.
How about two Full rough rider squads each with 2 meltaguns, they stay behind your aegis and once an enemy comes within charge distance they spring out and attack, the charge will push your enemy back and while your riders sacrifice themselves the veterans can move up and blow up the survivors of the cavalry attack you can do all that for the cost 250pts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/31 06:49:27
Meh, I see RR's like HWSs, except even worse, as they don't have the option to attack stuff turn 1. If you could still assault from reserves, I'd seriously consider it, but as you can't, it's just something to get shot up before it has a chance to be useful.
At the moment, the question I'm asking myself is how much do I need the ADL? I want the cover for when the carapace doesn't work, and I want the interceptor against fliers. If I don't need them, though, I can do more. It sort of seems like my list with the HQ, the 6x vets, and 2 stormie squads. Then it's a matter of 6 ogryn, 4 ogryn and an ADL, or another stormie squad and an ADL.
Also, it just kind of struck my that, apart from their horrible luck, I'm also using my stormies wrong. I'm still sort of behaving with them as if they were a suicide unit, picking off targets of opportunity, when really I should be treating them like a troops choice, except that they can deepstrike.
On the one hand, they're a support unit, so they should be supporting the troops choices. That means I should be using them a bit more reactively rather than proactively - something to bail out my vets, rather than someone to take things out alone.
Secondly, no support unit, itself, works without support. Putting them out in the middle of nowhere with my opponent able to counterstrike without me being able to counter the counter will just end up with them being killed, even with the extra guys.
And that's the point of the extra guys, of course. To not just get killed right away. I think I need to play more conservatively with them to prevent just this from happening.
So many points wasted on Strorm Troopers - It makes my head hurt and eyes water just looking at it.
You're paying 16 points for each one of those extra ST. Maybe if you wanted to get cute and have 1x 10 man squad to DS and disrupt. But three!? Insanity! You must explain. Those ST take up right around 30-35% of your army no? Really the problem is the 10 man ST squad with 2 flamers. 175+ points of ZERO range firepower. I couldn't waste BS4 any better if I tried.
I know you're an experienced IG player - and, maybe you just wanted to experiment? At 1850 points your firepower is astonishingly underwhelming. I couldn't imagine this list winning but 10% of the time at this point level. I'm not trying to flame, I just really am perplexed. Maybe I'm missing something here.
2012/08/31 07:26:17
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
Look at stormtroopers comprehensively, rather than just at their special weapons options, and you'll see why.
- Ap3. Combined with deepstrike, this is a big middle finger to marines. Bonus points for the fact that they also get Ap3 overwatch.
In fact, 10x stormie squads are superb anti-infantry weapons. You only need to look back into my battle reports where they landed anywhere near their targets to see this.
Thus, of course, the flamer. With their accurate deepstriking, it's not that challenging to get 20 flamer hits in with a pair of flamers in addition to all that hellgun fire. You can take out termies with this kind of damage, and it certainly beats the hell out of everything else infantry. In this case, the fact that the rerollably deepstrike is more important than the fact that they're BS4.
- They deepstrike. Apart from the above killing power benefit, there's more. They start in reserves, so they can't get shot up before they attack. They deepstrike, which means they can attack anywhere on the board.
And once they land, they stay there. They can still contest objectives, and they give you much better field presense, especially if your troops are stuck hiding behind an ADL. They bring the fight to the enemy, and force them to react in a way that HS slots really can't.
- Other goodies. With Sv4+, played properly, those thorns-in-the-sides can be very difficult to dislodge. As mentioned, I'm not playing them right (and I've been very unlucky), but as I get better, this will play out more.
In a way, they're proper FA choices, as they can show up on an enemy's flank and have both the killing power and durability to roll it up.
Then they get grenades and power weapons, and stuff, but by this point, that's mostly cake icing.
The non-anti-infantry firepower is, indeed, somewhat lackluster, I'll grant, but when they catch marines out in the open, they're dead, in one turn. When there's something trying to hold onto a backfield objective, they're dead, in one go. They have a lot of strategic use. You've got to look at more than just their firepower to see that.
On paper I like the idea. Especially if you get in Rapid Fire Range and get 20 AP 3 shots. Even against SM it always seems to be underwhelming for me. 10 will hit. Great! Now we need 5's to W (Ouch). This means you'll knock off around 3-4 Marines if you're Rapid Firing into them. If you're outside of the 9'' then taking down 3 is a bit of luck depending on your special weapons. I feel like Stormies have their uses. I can't subscribe to your philosophy that 3squads of 10 is remotely plausible however. Let's say 30 ST unload from 12'' away on a tactical squad. 30 shots. 15 hits. 6 W on avg. Again, what am I missing here.. Is the flexibility of DS really worth it? I really feel the AP3 is somewhat negated with S3 and the high points cost.
2012/08/31 08:30:00
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
Ailaros wrote: The non-anti-infantry firepower is, indeed, somewhat lackluster, I'll grant, but when they catch marines out in the open, they're dead, in one turn. When there's something trying to hold onto a backfield objective, they're dead, in one go. They have a lot of strategic use. You've got to look at more than just their firepower to see that.
10 Stormtroopers Deep Strike in to attack 10 Tactical Marines outside of cover. Let's assume that everyone is within rapid fire range and that each flamer gets 6 hits (this is highly generous). 16 hellgun shots inflict 32/3 hits and 32/9 wounds. The flamers inflict six wounds and two guys fail saves. So under extremely favorable conditions, a 10 man Stormtrooper drop with two flamers will likely kill five or six Marines, and one or two Terminators. If the enemy has Interceptors, this is somewhat risky and might even ruin your unit (a quad-gun will fairly reliably kill two or three Stormtroopers before they get to attack, potentially provoking a Morale check). If you scatter at all, your flamers will be much less effective and you could very well find yourself out of Rapid Fire range with several models, considering that this is only 9" for hot-shot lasguns now.
In response, the remaining four or five Marines can run up, throw a frag grenade which will hit like 7 or 8 guys if it hits, shoot bolt pistols/flamers/meltas, and charge. If they have a flamer of their own, it'll hit everybody. Also, any plasma cannon, Whirlwind, etc. has a reasonable chance of blowing up your extremely expensive unit of T3 4+ save models.
Honestly, I don't think Stormtroopers are good except as a means of getting Scouting Chimeras or suicide melta Deep Strikers. Despite being an "anti-MEQ" unit, they just don't pack enough punch, and they cost as much as the Marines they are purportedly able to counter. Considering that they aren't even that good at doing that, I would definitely drop or deemphasize them. I feel like you got lucky with your initial tests of Stormtroopers and have kind of gone nuts on them as a result, but realistically they just aren't that effective or reliable for their points.
2012/08/31 08:33:53
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
well... what you're missing is what I said you were missing in my last post. You're looking at stormies as nothing more than a melta delivery system. In that role, of course stormicide squads make the most sense. What I'm saying is that there is a lot more to stormies than their special weapons.
To note something you said specifically, don't forget that stormies are BS4. If you drop them in close against a tac squad, and get 9 flamer hits per flamer, that's 18 flamer hits and 12 hellgun hits. The hellguns put down 4 marines, and the flamers put down 3 more. In return, 3 marines are NOT killing off 10 stormies. In shooting, the stormies get an armor save. In assault, stormies get AP3 overwatch. In a contest between flamer stormies and anything in power armor, the stormies win, and win handily.
On another note, keeping with my list problem, I think I may have gotten it. I don't actually need to take away stormies to add in hydras...
Of course, it is a bit of a risk, what with a lighter troops section, but dang. 4 hydras and 3 full stormie squads is going to mess stuff up. And the troops still have carapace, and they still have the ADL cover.
Kingsley wrote:Let's assume that everyone is within rapid fire range and that each flamer gets 6 hits (this is highly generous).
It's really not, though. Unlike most other flamers, these deepstrike. And they can reroll to scatter. If you haven't had the insanely poor luck that I have (remember, they've got just under a 2/3ds chance to hit dead on) you can place them up close and very personal.
In any case, the math shows that their initial splash is good enough, and, compared with their resilience, they punch at their points cost, not below. Add to it all of the non-killing-power advantages, and I'm really not seeing myself as being all that overexhuberant.
Stormies are just one of those things that have changed in 6th ed. You can't think about them in exactly the way you thought about them in 5th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/31 08:38:24
Meh, I see RR's like HWSs, except even worse, as they don't have the option to attack stuff turn 1. If you could still assault from reserves, I'd seriously consider it, but as you can't, it's just something to get shot up before it has a chance to be useful.
True, will probably be cut down like this....
They will die a hero's death but not to any tactical advantage sadly :(
About the deep striking stormies, i would say that its a good idea and solves the problem of getting your men up in the enemies face the 10 man squads have the staying power and extra firepower which is useful when you want every gun you can get against the opponents weaker backfield, if only the could deepstrike with chimeras......
I'm seriously considering taking a outflanking Al rahem platoon with no current way to move up squads effectively he seems like the best option, even if he shows up on a board edge with no enemies he can just collect linebreaker with his entourage. I think outfitting the entire platoon with chimeras also might be a good idea with the extra survivability and firepower
On another note, keeping with my list problem, I think I may have gotten it. I don't actually need to take away stormies to add in hydras...
Of course, it is a bit of a risk, what with a lighter troops section, but dang. 4 hydras and 3 full stormie squads is going to mess stuff up. And the troops still have carapace, and they still have the ADL cover.
Regarding your list, like before i think that the Hydras are a great addition. Don't forget that the Hydras get heavy bolters too! so in the event that there are no fliers you can use your Hydras as mounted HWS' with HB and BS 1 autocannons.
I'm beginning to understand what you want to acheive with the stormtroopers. It's a pretty neat gambit actually that you just might pull off, but here are some things to consider:
- It's almost 30% of your list
- The chance of landing "on the spot" is actually closer to 1/2 than 2/3. In fact in appx 1/12 of your games all will scatter. The chance of none scattering is slightly less than 20%
- They will have very little support.
Some ideas:
- Marbo. Cheaper and will more reliably arrive where needed.
- Al'rahem. Could outflank and bring men and some heavy guns to support the Storm troopers.
- Astropath to make it more likey reserves arrive together. Remember he also allows you to reroll which edge outflankers arrive at.
- Mortars. I know, they are crap, but they are also the only foot guard weapon that is mobile in the sense that it can reach out to almost any part of the table.
- Master of Ordnance. I know, he is crap, but see mortars above. Take two and hope they hurt something. Bring in the ST to mop up.
I also liked how you put the Aegis infront of your army and moved into position the first round. I missed that at first, thanks for pointing it out. There is a clear risk CC oriented armies will pick up on that idea though...
Even though I'm likely to build a combined force myself I've been toying with different ideas of ways to play foot. One idea I had was to use a refused flank approach with plenty of units in reserve to counter enemy mobility.
NOTE: It's pretty far from the army you are trying to build, so see it as an inspiration, not me telling you to redo your army.
NOTE: The attached image is a sketch. I'm sure I'm way over 1850pts and probably breaking a few rules as well!
What kind of weapons do those Necron flyers have on them? I don't know the range or strength but on the batreps I read on here they seem to carve a swath of destruction. Are you sure Hydras would get the first shot off? I'm worried they'd just be the first targets and get wiped by the vehicles since they don't have interceptor.
NWansbutter wrote: What kind of weapons do those Necron flyers have on them? I don't know the range or strength but on the batreps I read on here they seem to carve a swath of destruction. Are you sure Hydras would get the first shot off? I'm worried they'd just be the first targets and get wiped by the vehicles since they don't have interceptor.
Some sort of 4 shot, S6 weapon. Reminded me of the Supa Shootas on a dakkajet. It's only 4 shots though, so while it picked off my PCS's pretty reliably, I wasn't too afraid of it. In the game I played against one, I ended up ignoring it after it dropped it's payload, since it really didn't have anything important it could threaten. I'm sure they could easily glance a hydra to death though.
As for the stormtroopers, maybe you should toy around with the other doctrines they have? Aeriel Insertion isn't the only one you can take after all. You can have them infiltrate with pinning on the first shot, and can get them to outflank as well. Maybe you should experiment with these some and see if they can help?
The other idea would be to deploy them how an actual special forces unit would deploy I.E. Not in an open field right behind a tank. Maybe try dropping them in behind a building, or in a little defended area, so they have breathing room to spread out and engage the flank of your enemy or move to objectives to deny them. For example, dropping a squad off near an objective you think your enemy will attempt to grab towards the end of the game in his deployment, and have them guard it. I've never tried anything like this with stormies, but if you're going to run them as special forces units that aren't supposed to die in one turn, maybe you should try stuff other than land next to the tank and hope to god they kill it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/31 17:57:42
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2012/08/31 18:20:09
Subject: Re:[1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
dakka farta wrote:True, will probably be cut down like this....
They will die a hero's death but not to any tactical advantage sadly :(
PUNISHER CANNONS!
Seriously, though, I think RR's are less likely to reenact the glorious final charge of the satsuma rebellion, and the story of my equine escapades are going to look more like this:
dakka farta wrote:I'm seriously considering taking a outflanking Al rahem platoon with no current way to move up squads effectively he seems like the best option, even if he shows up on a board edge with no enemies he can just collect linebreaker with his entourage.
zoat wrote:- Al'rahem. Could outflank and bring men and some heavy guns to support the Storm troopers.
- Astropath to make it more likey reserves arrive together. Remember he also allows you to reroll which edge outflankers arrive at.
When I eventually get around to it, I guess I'll still consider it. Al'Rahem has his own problems, though. There was a reason I stopped taking him (see previous battle reports in this series for the dakka debate).
I'd like to note, though, that even with an astropath, there's still a 1 in 9 chance that his several hundred points wind up on the wrong side. That's not exactly all that much better than hundreds of points of stormies showing up somewhere worthless.
zoat wrote:- The chance of landing "on the spot" is actually closer to 1/2 than 2/3. In fact in appx 1/12 of your games all will scatter. The chance of none scattering is slightly less than 20%
- They will have very little support.
As for the latter, any unit that shows up in the backfield will have support problems. In any case, I think there's a learning curve here that I haven't mastered.
For the former, yeah, it's a gamble, but anything with dice is. Yes, it has a slightly higher risk level with being with a slightly tinier number of die rolls that other things (as far as large numbers are concerned), but I've noticed, not just from myself, but from reading other people's battle reports and old-fashioned asking them, that 6th edition seems to have much, much narrower margins than 5th. 6th ed games seem to be determined by just a few decisions and just a few critical die rolls more than its predecessor.
If this is the case anyways, it encourages go-big-or-go-home behavior (which I think was intentional on GW's part). If "safe" odds wind up winning or losing games on a couple of key die rolls basically just as often as "risky" odds, then there isn't much reason to limit yourself to "safe" odds (if there ever really was one in the first place).
zoat wrote:Master of Ordnance. I know, he is crap, but see mortars above. Take two and hope they hurt something. Bring in the ST to mop up.
I'm not against MoOs, and rather liked them when I fielded them (they allowed me to put little artillery blast things on my pictures:
The problem isn't the MoO, per se, the problem is the CCS. In order for the MoO to work, the squad has to stand still, which is congruous with a shooty CCS. I spent an entire rules edition with Daxos P Clinton being nothing but a hot air bag. Never really doing anything.
I didn't think I missed melchoir until I started running him again. Melchoir Theleos is a hero of the Imperium. I can't take him and Sanario AND have a MoO at the same time. Unfortunately for the artillery officer, he's not the one I'd rather have of those two.
zoat wrote:I also liked how you put the Aegis infront of your army and moved into position the first round. I missed that at first, thanks for pointing it out. There is a clear risk CC oriented armies will pick up on that idea though...
Yeah, that's a neat trick I picked up somewhere. I like it because it means that, for free, I get my forces at least 1/4 of the way up no man's land.
I don't know if I'd worry about assault armies picking this up. Whatever they gain in durability, they lose because they need to make a difficult terrain test over the aegis. More likely than not, this will mean that they have to spend an extra turn on the board before they get into CC, which means less durability overall.
Put another way, a cleverly-placed aegis won't save assault armies.
zoat wrote:Even though I'm likely to build a combined force myself I've been toying with different ideas of ways to play foot. One idea I had was to use a refused flank approach with plenty of units in reserve to counter enemy mobility.
Hmm, I'll come back to this when I'm done with vets.
NWansbutter wrote:What kind of weapons do those Necron flyers have on them? I don't know the range or strength but on the batreps I read on here they seem to carve a swath of destruction. Are you sure Hydras would get the first shot off? I'm worried they'd just be the first targets and get wiped by the vehicles since they don't have interceptor.
The tesla blasters. The ones that shoot 5 times for an average of 8 hits. Yeah, they would have been tough on hydras, but look at what I took out to field them. The PP is a loss, but the plasma vets didn't do anything anyways.
Plus, to give the hydra credit here, a squad of two of them only NEEDS one round of shooting to blow a night scythe out of the sky.
MrMoustaffa wrote:As for the stormtroopers, maybe you should toy around with the other doctrines they have? Aeriel Insertion isn't the only one you can take after all. You can have them infiltrate with pinning on the first shot, and can get them to outflank as well. Maybe you should experiment with these some and see if they can help?
Maybe try dropping them in behind a building, or in a little defended area, so they have breathing room to spread out and engage the flank of your enemy or move to objectives to deny them.
I've never really had anything but disaster from infiltration. I don't know if I'm just using it that wrong or if it's just worse than deepstriking. It seems like the best I'd get is a semi-supported area denial unit. I feel like it could do better otherwise...
But perhaps being more cautious is really the name of the game. Perhaps I have to think of them as more of a board control unit than a show up and kill stuff unit. I don't know. It feels like a skill that I just really haven't gotten the knack for yet.
dakka farta wrote:if only the could deepstrike with chimeras...
Hey, we can't all be blood angels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/31 18:24:15
Ailaros wrote: well... what you're missing is what I said you were missing in my last post. You're looking at stormies as nothing more than a melta delivery system. In that role, of course stormicide squads make the most sense. What I'm saying is that there is a lot more to stormies than their special weapons.
To note something you said specifically, don't forget that stormies are BS4. If you drop them in close against a tac squad, and get 9 flamer hits per flamer, that's 18 flamer hits and 12 hellgun hits. The hellguns put down 4 marines, and the flamers put down 3 more. In return, 3 marines are NOT killing off 10 stormies. In shooting, the stormies get an armor save. In assault, stormies get AP3 overwatch. In a contest between flamer stormies and anything in power armor, the stormies win, and win handily.
Did you read my post? I went over this specifically. Suffice it to say that 9 flamer hits per flamer is absurd (even Hellhounds can't rely on these sorts of hit rates, and they don't have to Deep Strike) and any scatter will not only deprive your flamers of hits but may put hellguns out of rapid fire range.
Ailaros wrote:In any case, the math shows that their initial splash is good enough
It doesn't. It really, really, doesn't.
Ailaros wrote:and, compared with their resilience,
T3 4+ is not resilient. T3 4+ is below average, especially since Storm Troopers come down in base-to-base contact if they don't Run after Deep Striking and are hence horrendously vulnerable to blasts and template weapons of all kinds.
Ailaros wrote:Stormies are just one of those things that have changed in 6th ed. You can't think about them in exactly the way you thought about them in 5th.
Yeah. In 5th edition they were better, because you could use Smoke Launchers with your Chimera after Scouting and got to Rapid Fire your hotshot lasguns at 12" instead of 9".
2012/08/31 20:05:09
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
If you score 9 hits on a unit with a flamer, either your opponent is bad enough that nothing you do matters because you've already won, you just exploded a very full old style Rhino, which probably killed several of your Storm Troopers in the explosion, or you're shooting at a horde of orks or termagants or hormagaunts who won't care about your inflected casualties or your Wall of Death overwatch and will just rip you a new donkey-cave in close combat.
2012/08/31 20:11:07
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
You guys are missing the point. Deepstriking. They let you put your flamers anywhere. Getting 9 hits with flamers isn't absurd. I've done it already.
There are lots of reasons to bunch up in places that people think are safe - behind an ADL, or behind a building, etc. Normal flamers are worthless against them. Deepstriking flamers are not.
As for a horde, do the math. A mob of boyz at 175 points is what, 20 boys and a nob? Even assuming only 6 flamer hits, that's 10 boyz killed on the drop, followed up by 4 more on overwatch. Then the stormies get to strike before the boyz now, killing another boy before they get a chance to swing. 5 boyz up against 10 guys in 4+ armor save is going to be really tough, and if the sarge challenges, it's keeping the klaw out of their face.
And this is in a situation that's being presented as worst case. Even if the stormies lose, all you're saying is that a unit that's up against a unit that they're bad against will lose. Next we'll get to hear about meltaguns being good against tanks? Perhaps we shouldn't use those either, then, as there is something out there that can counter them.
Tautologies aside, it still misses the point. Killing power is ONE things that stormies can do. If I ONLY cared about killing power, then I'd only ever take HS slots. Turns out that there is more to this game than raw power, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/31 20:13:28
Ailaros wrote: You guys are missing the point. Deepstriking. They let you put your flamers anywhere. Getting 9 hits with flamers isn't absurd. I've done it already.
Even with a reroll, you will scatter 4/9 of the time. So you only even get to put the flamer where you want slightly more than half the time, and that's assuming it doesn't get Intercepted (for obvious reasons, flamers tend to be the closest models to the enemy). This seems very clearly not reliable enough.
2012/08/31 20:18:25
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
Every unit in the codex has reasons not to take them. It's generally not that difficult to find them. Saying nothing more than that they're not perfect is meaningless.
Kingsley has a point though. Landing deep strike units will become more difficult as Interceptors can fire out of sequence at any unit that entered from reserve that turn.
I'd like to note, though, that even with an astropath, there's still a 1 in 9 chance that his several hundred points wind up on the wrong side. That's not exactly all that much better than hundreds of points of stormies showing up somewhere worthless.
While in principle correct I think you are making it sound worse than it is. With the astropath the outflankers will appear at turn two on 2+, so your stormtroopers will know Al'rahem ended up on the "wrong" side of the table and can deploy accordingly. In this case think of it as them supporting Al'rahem.
I read the other Hand of the King series battle reports and I get the impression that what you really need to do is some more praying to the dice gods!
That being said I agree with your conclusion that guardsmen in general and HWS in particular seem to melt away too easily...
2012/08/31 22:05:07
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
As for the stormtroopers, maybe you should toy around with the other doctrines they have? Aeriel Insertion isn't the only one you can take after all. You can have them infiltrate with pinning on the first shot, and can get them to outflank as well. Maybe you should experiment with these some and see if they can help?
Maybe try dropping them in behind a building, or in a little defended area, so they have breathing room to spread out and engage the flank of your enemy or move to objectives to deny them.
The point is for the Stormies to get shots at their enemies before they are fired upon and are more of an alpha strike unit, if your opponent sees them out in their deployment they will blast them to pieces in fear of melta shots against their weaker backfield. An added detractor is that the stormtrooper weapons are generally short-ranged.
Aliaros PUNISHER CANNONS!
Seriously, though, I think RR's are less likely to reenact the glorious final charge of the satsuma rebellion, and the story of my equine escapades are going to look more like this:
When I eventually get around to it, I guess I'll still consider it. Al'Rahem has his own problems, though. There was a reason I stopped taking him (see previous battle reports in this series for the dakka debate).
I'd like to note, though, that even with an astropath, there's still a 1 in 9 chance that his several hundred points wind up on the wrong side. That's not exactly all that much better than hundreds of points of stormies showing up somewhere worthless.
Sometimes you just have to rely on that number to win the game, its a game of luck you are betting on that all the time with all your units, plus linebreaker makes them more useful now. Outflanking IG seems the way to go now imo for footguard but i would suggest keeping the Rahem platoon light with 3 PIS to avoid a massive point drain and potential blunder if they fail in coming in the right area.
I'm not against MoOs, and rather liked them when I fielded them (they allowed me to put little artillery blast things on my pictures:
You should make some fluffy ariel shots of the battlefield featuring explosions and more cool sfx, it really puts the life in the battle reports.
By the way Aliaros, i'm thinking of making a battle report sometime and i was just wondering whether it would be okay to use your format (5th and 4th ed one), since i really like their style and fluid way of displaying the battle, not that your current ones don't its just i do not want to make two separate ones.
NWansbutter wrote:What kind of weapons do those Necron flyers have on them?
The tesla blasters. The ones that shoot 5 times for an average of 8 hits.
Tesla Destructors have 4 shots, are twin-linked, and any roll of 6 to hit is 3 hits instead of one. They average 5 and 1/3 hit per time firing.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2012/09/01 10:23:05
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
Ailaros wrote: it's not that challenging to get 20 flamer hits in with a pair of flamers in addition to all that hellgun fire.
I've seen you say this many times now in defense of the stormies. 20 hits with 2 flamers?!? Are you playing against fantasy armies here? 4-6 hits per flamer with a hit, sure, but 10? Sounds like you should add tons of blast templates to blast all those ranked units away.
Edit: I see others have already commented, point still stands though
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/01 10:25:49
TheMicah25 wrote:I think moderation will win the day in this list. As i mentioned in a previous game of yours, why dont you try 2 units of 10 stormies and marbo?
This will save you some points and marbo can do things the stormies cant thereby giving you greater options for cheaper.
But what am I really gaining from marbo? It seems like I'd be dropping a 10x carapace guard squad with Ap3 BS4 weapons so that I could have... a single battlecannon shot?
DarknessEternal wrote:
Ailaros wrote:
NWansbutter wrote:What kind of weapons do those Necron flyers have on them?
The tesla blasters. The ones that shoot 5 times for an average of 8 hits.
Tesla Destructors have 4 shots, are twin-linked, and any roll of 6 to hit is 3 hits instead of one. They average 5 and 1/3 hit per time firing.
Ah, so the flyers put down a bit shy of 11 hits per round of shooting, with the possibility of getting more by arcing.
Illumini wrote:20 hits with 2 flamers?!? Are you playing against fantasy armies here? 4-6 hits per flamer with a hit, sure, but 10? Sounds like you should add tons of blast templates to blast all those ranked units away.
Once again. Deepstriking.
On the one hand, I can actually get flamers suicidally close. On the other hand, there are places on the board where my opponents feel safe bunching up (because they're out of LOS, for example), and the stormies can attack what was once unassailable positions with flame throwers. It is entirely possible to spread out or defend yourself against frontal attacks in such a way that they become more vulnerable to deepstriking.
NWansbutter wrote:What kind of weapons do those Necron flyers have on them?
The tesla blasters. The ones that shoot 5 times for an average of 8 hits.
Tesla Destructors have 4 shots, are twin-linked, and any roll of 6 to hit is 3 hits instead of one. They average 5 and 1/3 hit per time firing.
Ah, so the flyers put down a bit shy of 11 hits per round of shooting, with the possibility of getting more by arcing.
No, Nightscythes are armed with a single Tesla Destructor, so 5 hits on average with arc, which is trivial. They have no other weapons or ways to gain other weapons.
Doomscythes, the other flier, have a single Tesla Destructor and the line of powerful randomness.
Annihilation Barges have a single Tesla Destructor and can also have a Tesla Cannon (2 shots, not twin linked). But they are not Fliers, they are Skimmers (not even Fast Skimmers).
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2012/09/02 08:12:25
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
TheMicah25 wrote:I think moderation will win the day in this list. As i mentioned in a previous game of yours, why dont you try 2 units of 10 stormies and marbo?
This will save you some points and marbo can do things the stormies cant thereby giving you greater options for cheaper.
But what am I really gaining from marbo? It seems like I'd be dropping a 10x carapace guard squad with Ap3 BS4 weapons so that I could have... a single battlecannon shot?
An AP2 battle cannon shot. its good for lots of things dont forget about its boost on the damage table. You are also gaining more precision. not to mention saving points for more troops. By using marbo you are increasing the flexibility of your army and adding things that the storm troopers can do but not as well.
2012/09/03 15:18:56
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
But what am I really gaining from marbo? It seems like I'd be dropping a 10x carapace guard squad with Ap3 BS4 weapons so that I could have... a single battlecannon shot?
Considering an optimal situation (hit on turn two, all weapons in range for double tap, ten hits per flamer), for 175 points, your Stormies come in and can take down, on average, one squad of marines by the end of turn three (7 kills turn two, 3 turn three). In return they lose one guy to that squad. More likely than not, that will be their only kill of the game. Anything within 18 inches will shoot the stormies, and they will be hurt badly enough to be more or less worthless, but we'll say that for the rest of the game they accumulate five more kills.
Considering the same for Marbo, for 65 points, comes in and drops a Str 8 AP2 large blast. In a squad of ten, assuming it covers all of them, it has over a 90% chance of either hitting or scattering so little that Marbo's BS 5 turns it into a hit. The blast will kill 9 marines on average. That one marine will, likely fail to even put a wound on Marbo, let alone two. But in the following turn, Marbo can charge the marine and kill him handily. That forces your opponent to choose between letting Marbo wreak havoc in his backfield, and firing enough guns to put two wounds on 6+ cover in the open, 5+ if gone to ground, and 4+ if gone to ground in cover. And Marbo can wreak a lot of havoc, considering he has more tools on his belt than Batman.
2012/09/03 15:40:45
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
But what am I really gaining from marbo? It seems like I'd be dropping a 10x carapace guard squad with Ap3 BS4 weapons so that I could have... a single battlecannon shot?
Considering an optimal situation (hit on turn two, all weapons in range for double tap, ten hits per flamer), for 175 points, your Stormies come in and can take down, on average, one squad of marines by the end of turn three (7 kills turn two, 3 turn three). In return they lose one guy to that squad. More likely than not, that will be their only kill of the game. Anything within 18 inches will shoot the stormies, and they will be hurt badly enough to be more or less worthless, but we'll say that for the rest of the game they accumulate five more kills.
Considering the same for Marbo, for 65 points, comes in and drops a Str 8 AP2 large blast. In a squad of ten, assuming it covers all of them, it has over a 90% chance of either hitting or scattering so little that Marbo's BS 5 turns it into a hit. The blast will kill 9 marines on average. That one marine will, likely fail to even put a wound on Marbo, let alone two. But in the following turn, Marbo can charge the marine and kill him handily. That forces your opponent to choose between letting Marbo wreak havoc in his backfield, and firing enough guns to put two wounds on 6+ cover in the open, 5+ if gone to ground, and 4+ if gone to ground in cover. And Marbo can wreak a lot of havoc, considering he has more tools on his belt than Batman.
If its area terrain it would be a 2+ cover save. 5+ base. G2G makes it 3+. Stealth then makes it a 2+. Seeing as most 5+ terrain is area terrain thats pretty good.
Proud to be Obliviously Blue since 2011!
2012/09/04 03:58:32
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
I agree on Marbo, he does everything the stormtroopers can do but for cheaper and be more reliable. Only thing he can't do is crack landraiders, but he should be targeting the guys inside anyways.
I've been killing all kinds of stuff with him in 6th. That take models from closest to the firer is brutal. I killed an emperor's champion today with him, and still killed a good 5 crusaders as well. I've also killed chaplains, an archon, and 2 squads of longfangs who thought they were safe. He really is worth every point. Plus, he never scatters. So you can put him up on that balcony of a ruin and he'll be just fine with zero scatter. Let's see your stormies do that. You have a game where he literally showed up INSIDE YOUR CCS. You can't tell me that isn't effective.
Also, run some regular russes again. I know you're deadset against them, but they're much better in 5th. Give em a lascannon (no bolter sponsons, they're terrible snapshotting all the time) My russes haven't let me down once yet. The battlecannon got a LOT more powerful this edition. I've been hunting tanks with it as much as infantry now, and have only lost 2 to shooting so far, over about 12 games. They just soak up so much firepower (people see them as a threat, unlike exterminators. That big cannon just seems to have that pyschological effect) The nerf to cover, full strength anywhere on the template, that hull lascannon, and all that armor makes it a force to be reckoned with. Just try it again, you'll be (pleasantly) surprised.
Also, and this will sound like madness, but I ran blobs today. Didn't have time to do proper battle reports (let's see you play 2 seperate 1,000pts lists you wrote the night before against 2 guys teamed up against you with over a hundred models in your army) but the blobs kicked some serious butt. Game one, a blob with axes killed an entire 15 crusader squad, and the second gutted a harlequin squad, and managed to even hold off a second full strength one for a turn after the other one hit and ra on turn 3 (blob two was running maces) Game two, the axe blob fought a unit of grey hunters and got them down to half strength (I positioned my blob horribly and didn't hit anywhere near full strength with my axes) The mace blob killed an entire death company squad due to some clever use of enfeeble and a friendly neighborhood lord commissar with a fist. And even if I hadn't enfeebled them, it only would've taken another turn with all the wounds those maces throw down. They then proceeded to beat a Baal predator to death with their maces, and were about to take on mephiston himself when the game ended on turn 5.
I thought precision shot would wreck them, but with all the characters in the squad, it was far easier to keep the commissars alive than I thought it would be. Only time they died early were against units that would've swept them before anyways, so it wasn't a big change. They still need some tweaking, but I think IG just might be able to keep running them, especially in low points games. Maybe you should try them out again. Artillery spam armies will be scary, and if someone runs a good amount of snipers you might sweat, but they're pretty rare army compositions right now, and I think they may have a better shot than we thought. I tried them with a primaris pysker and a lord commissar with carapace and fist w/ meltabombs, but I think using a couple blobs as a solid core wouldn't be a bad idea for a larger army. I'm going to play around with it more though, as 2 games isn't anywhere near enough to call this "fact" yet. All I know was that by game 2, I had a blood angels and a space wolf player both hesitant on charging guardsmen because they didn't want to get stomped in combat. It was a good feeling I'll let you know how they do after a few more games. Hopefully I can get a battle report made next weekend when I've got some more time to take pics.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2012/09/04 04:54:21
Subject: [1850 guard v. necron] The Hand of the King - Episode VI (Sleet and Blood)
Sorry guys, I really don't see it. To compare the durability of one guardsman, even with stealth, against an entire squad of stormies is a joke. Furthermore, the firepower is nowhere near the same. Melta stormies have Ap1 and the chance of +D6. The demo charge is probably just peeling off a HP. Meanwhile, having a huge pile of BS4 hellguns is way better against most infantry unless your opponent is wadding up into a circle (flamers in this case being better as most people put their troops into lines that are vulnerable to enfilade). Most importantly, when they survive, they shoot the melta/hellguns again.
Marbo is a one-shot earthshaker cannon. A suicide unit. 10x stormtrooper squads are a take and hold unit. Very different roles.
As for russes. What I need to support my troops is anti-flier. Regular russes don't fit the bill. As for what else regular russes are good against, I've now got melta duravets with lascannons and melta stormies (for vehicles), and a flock of Ap3 hellguns for marines.
The LRBT still easily takes its spot in the top three russ variants, but, plainly put, I don't NEED russes. Were I to drop my stormies, of course they'd suddenly look rather interesting.
As for blobs, how do you even get them into close combat? It's so easy to just wipe out a squad that LoS! doesn't even mean anything, and wound allocation stripping guys from the front and random assault ranges means you're going to spend an extra turn or two on the board before you make it into close combat.
Unless I know WHY your blobs were successful, I can't really endorse them. Perhaps if your opponents are displaying the same questionable behavior that's keeping your HWSs alive, but without something more concrete, I have to remain skeptical in the face of overwhelming deductive force.
