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 snooggums wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Nothing wrong with any of the symbols on this page. German army markings =/= Nazi markings. Unless you're talking about the Swastika.

Besides OP symbol looks like communist templars, scary, but not offensive.

WWII ruined many symbols that predate that time period, including the swastika, which has a rich history in most early cultures and is still used in eastern cultures (check out the Wikipedia page). WWII was the only time it was used at an angle on a white circle with a red background so there are specific instances where it is obviously a reference to a specific real world context that should be discouraged.

Wrong




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 Kroothawk wrote:
The German Iron Cross http://www.worldwar2aces.com/iron-cross.htm is a famous symbol and common military award of Nazi Germany. Was used before (at least since 1813) and in variations used afterwards, but most people link it to Nazi Germany. The pseudo-German words in your signature let me think that a connection to Germany in WW1 or WW2 is clearly intended. In combination with the Soviet Star it looks like a glorification of the Hitler-Stalin pact. Some people will be offended, others not. Guess you are not surprised.

I don't think there's too much danger of people thinking that a fantasy army is supposed to represent an alliance between the Nazis and eastern Europe, considering the number of Russians killed in the Holocaust. The army is intended to be based on the German Empire; Nazi references are also prohibited at Sturmkrieg. Only pre WWI themes can be used for German armies, and I can also tell if someone is trying to BS and use "WWI" content to try to evoke WWII.

And thank you for calling it pseudo-German.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 snooggums wrote:
WWII was the only time it was used at an angle on a white circle with a red background so there are specific instances where it is obviously a reference to a specific real world context that should be discouraged.

Wrong

I don't see a white circle and a red background in the image you posted...

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
One of the writers for the fluff I'm doing

Symbols aside for a moment, how are you working on fluff if someone else is writing it?

I'm a little confused.

It's being done by multiple people.

http://en.sturmkrieg.com/Portal:Sturmkrieg

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
The German Iron Cross http://www.worldwar2aces.com/iron-cross.htm is a famous symbol and common military award of Nazi Germany. Was used before (at least since 1813) and in variations used afterwards, but most people link it to Nazi Germany. The pseudo-German words in your signature let me think that a connection to Germany in WW1 or WW2 is clearly intended. In combination with the Soviet Star it looks like a glorification of the Hitler-Stalin pact. Some people will be offended, others not. Guess you are not surprised.

I don't think there's too much danger of people thinking that a fantasy army is supposed to represent an alliance between the Nazis and eastern Europe, considering the number of Russians killed in the Holocaust. The army is intended to be based on the German Empire; Nazi references are also prohibited at Sturmkrieg. Only pre WWI themes can be used for German armies, and I can also tell if someone is trying to BS and use "WWI" content to try to evoke WWII.

And thank you for calling it pseudo-German.

1.) There were Russian Jews killed in the Holocaust, but most Russians killed during WW2 were not Jews so not part of the Holocaust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust .
2.) As a German, not every mix of German words makes sense to me. "Storm War" and "Free Defence War" (as the words in your sig are translated) are such word combinations not making sense, even if they sound "German" to Americans..

Making a distinction between some things being "German" and some "Nazi" and some "weird hippy magic symbol" is senseless. Symbols gain their meanings from what people think of them. If people see a swastika, they think "Nazi" over 99% of the time, so that's what it means. If you believe that people will be offended by your proposed symbols, don't use them. If you use them even though you think they will be perceived as offensive, you are probably being a jerk. If you're unsure whether or not these will be offensive to the people you play with, go ask the folks at your local shop.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

I'm not actually sure it was a serious issue either. From what I know, it could have just been one other person. We did have a German Nazi go off once because he said that the whole basis of the fluff was "historical revisionism" and to promote "Communists and Jews." If people have a legitimate point that it seems to obvious or supports Communism, we'll change it. But if occasionally someone with anti Communist Nazi views comes by and objects because they think that people will convert to Communism after seeing grimdark references to the USSR in a game, we're not going to waste time with it.

Someone else once mentioned that the problem with these kinds of themes isn't that it's offensive (at least in western countries) but that it's out of place if you get too heavy handed or use actual symbols.

Maybe it's a geographical thing. I can't imagine anyone here being offended by the Communist star, but the Iron Cross probably would.


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 tomjoad wrote:
Making a distinction between some things being "German" and some "Nazi" and some "weird hippy magic symbol" is senseless. Symbols gain their meanings from what people think of them. If people see a swastika, they think "Nazi" over 99% of the time, so that's what it means. If you believe that people will be offended by your proposed symbols, don't use them. If you use them even though you think they will be perceived as offensive, you are probably being a jerk. If you're unsure whether or not these will be offensive to the people you play with, go ask the folks at your local shop.

QFT.

Maltese cross mixed with Russian "star" to me.

But look, at 2 pages you can see already where this thread will end.
Emotive cat is emotive etc etc.

If you feel it is ok and your wider (perhaps close) gaming group have no issue go for it.
After that, people will have strong opinions on symbolism and iconography until the cows come home

 Ratius wrote:
Maltese cross mixed with Russian "star" to me.

But look, at 2 pages you can see already where this thread will end.
Emotive cat is emotive etc etc.

If you feel it is ok and your wider (perhaps close) gaming group have no issue go for it.
After that, people will have strong opinions on symbolism and iconography until the cows come home

Yeah, imagine people whinging because their grandparents were killed by people wearing those symbols. Pussies.

 Testify wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Maltese cross mixed with Russian "star" to me.

But look, at 2 pages you can see already where this thread will end.
Emotive cat is emotive etc etc.

If you feel it is ok and your wider (perhaps close) gaming group have no issue go for it.
After that, people will have strong opinions on symbolism and iconography until the cows come home

Yeah, imagine people whinging because their grandparents were killed by people wearing those symbols. Pussies.

Offer them the army with the Star of David then and everything will be okay, right?
Iron Cross armies vs. Star of David armies, who would doubt this is about WW1 German Empire.

Hmm? I cant tell if you're being facetious or really believe what looks like, in all intensive purposes, like a maltese cross and a Russian star have to do with grandparents being killed?

Oh wait, if you're serious, you're one of the OT crew on a crusade right?
Piss off so, if not, then I genuinely apologisse, I just dont get that rhetorical crap anymore.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hang on Krooty, I never mentioned SoD or the Iron cross, I stated what I thought it was and left it at that really.

I also said to the OP, if his gaming grp is ok with it, then thats their perogitive.

Dont make me the bad guy :(

 tomjoad wrote:
Making a distinction between some things being "German" and some "Nazi" and some "weird hippy magic symbol" is senseless. Symbols gain their meanings from what people think of them. If people see a swastika, they think "Nazi" over 99% of the time, so that's what it means. If you believe that people will be offended by your proposed symbols, don't use them. If you use them even though you think they will be perceived as offensive, you are probably being a jerk. If you're unsure whether or not these will be offensive to the people you play with, go ask the folks at your local shop.

Perfectly worded. That's what I wish more people understood. Too often I see someone ask about using a Totenkopf or something, and then someone says "well it was used by X before the Nazis so that means it's not a Nazi symbol and so you can use it." It doesn't work that way.

I was asking to see if that reaction was normal, or if it was extremist. Comments don't seem too problematic, except for reasons other than what I was asking about, but that's still important for consideration.


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QFT and exalted.

 Ratius wrote:
Hmm? I cant tell if you're being facetious or really believe what looks like, in all intensive purposes, like a maltese cross and a Russian star have to do with grandparents being killed?

The OP didn't post a Maltese Cross. He posted an iron cross, this:



This is a medal that been distrobuted to, and associated with, men who conquered civilisations with the aim of exterminating their populace. It's not unreasonable in the circumstances that it should cause offense.

 Ratius wrote:

I also said to the OP, if his gaming grp is ok with it, then thats their perogitive.

Dont make me the bad guy :(

I've asked people at the stores where I play what they think about it, and they're generally way more liberal than people online. I've also asked whether they think various symbols or colors might brake the real world/fantasy barrier too much, and they say not to worry about.

They also have the say reaction when asking weather various army background is workable or not.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

I've asked people at the stores where I play what they think about it, and they're generally way more liberal than people online. I've also asked whether they think various symbols or colors might brake the real world/fantasy barrier too much, and they say not to worry about.

I never said I was offended by it I just said I could understand why someone would be. I wouldn't have a problem with the Iron Cross (or the star, I used to be a Labour Party member after all).

I will have to disagree, Im not going to get into analysis of pictorial crosses but imho the OPs pic was a Maltese cross (thicker and less defined than the medal you ascribe).

But having said that, I can see your PoV and you made an unemotive and logical response, so we maybe we'll just agree to disagree on this one.

I do however see where you are coming from.

 Ratius wrote:
I will have to disagree, Im not going to get into analysis of pictorial crosses but imho the OPs pic was a Maltese cross (thicker and less defined than the medal you ascribe).

This is the op's pic:



This is an Iron Cross:



This is a Maltese Cross:

 Testify wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Hmm? I cant tell if you're being facetious or really believe what looks like, in all intensive purposes, like a maltese cross and a Russian star have to do with grandparents being killed?

The OP didn't post a Maltese Cross. He posted an iron cross, this:



This is a medal that been distrobuted to, and associated with, men who conquered civilisations with the aim of exterminating their populace. It's not unreasonable in the circumstances that it should cause offense.

The iron cross was never really part of the question. GW doesn't have a problem with using it in 40k, and no one has ever complained about it. The only thing that was in question was that Lord Kesharq said that someone on another forum said that it looked like a "German Communist" symbol with seeming seriousness. No one has ever brought up that issue before, and most people don't really pick up on Russian symbolism in the sector anyway.

My conclusion is likely going to be that the dude has some serious "Bolschewismus" phobia to be seeing a game about toy soldiers that way.


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 Testify wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

I've asked people at the stores where I play what they think about it, and they're generally way more liberal than people online. I've also asked whether they think various symbols or colors might brake the real world/fantasy barrier too much, and they say not to worry about.

I never said I was offended by it I just said I could understand why someone would be. I wouldn't have a problem with the Iron Cross (or the star, I used to be a Labour Party member after all).

I didn't think that. It's never seemed to be an issue. It wasn't also the reason I brought up the question either.

Some people have said that they speculate it would be a problem in eastern Europe, but I wouldn't be playing there, so it isn't an issue. If I played there, I wouldn't use it.

Ok Testify, I concede, the pics you posted are most definitely different and I can see where you're coming from.

However Im going to play pussy foot advocate and say *maybe* the OP didnt know and hes asking general opinion.

For me, I wouldnt give a toss tbh. But! I can see, how in other quarters, it could be offensive and needs to be reigned in.

Best I can do at 2am!

That's pretty much what I said...no harm done. It's the same time here and I'm a bit pissed haha

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Maltese cross mixed with Russian "star" to me.

But look, at 2 pages you can see already where this thread will end.
Emotive cat is emotive etc etc.

If you feel it is ok and your wider (perhaps close) gaming group have no issue go for it.
After that, people will have strong opinions on symbolism and iconography until the cows come home

Yeah, imagine people whinging because their grandparents were killed by people wearing those symbols. Pussies.

Offer them the army with the Star of David then and everything will be okay, right?
Iron Cross armies vs. Star of David armies, who would doubt this is about WW1 German Empire.

I'm not totally sure what the point of this is, but I have an idea.

It's not a diversionary tactic. I created the symbol for use with the planet Aschknas. I put in various themes and cultures that I thought were interesting. When working to come up with themes and backgrounds, I borrow from what I know, which is historical subjects. Plus the Eisenstern is also good for inserting unit numbers and insignias.

That's pretty much what I said...no harm done. It's the same time here and I'm a bit pissed haha

No worries, I misread your point, sorry

 Testify wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Hmm? I cant tell if you're being facetious or really believe what looks like, in all intensive purposes, like a maltese cross and a Russian star have to do with grandparents being killed?

The OP didn't post a Maltese Cross. He posted an iron cross, this:



This is a medal that been distrobuted to, and associated with, men who conquered civilisations with the aim of exterminating their populace. It's not unreasonable in the circumstances that it should cause offense.

It is also the symbol for Terminator Honors and comes in most Space Marine boxes...

Black Templars use the Maltese Cross.

The use of crosses, the Inquisition, terms like Templars and Angels of X are all obvious Christian symbols. The point I am trying to make is that singular symbols on their own are already present and shouldn't be something that someone has to worry and fret over just because someone might take it the wrong way. A few symbols were used only once in western culture, where I live, and those are the few I would actively refrain from using.

For example, I wouldn't use any swastika in any context simply because the only usage that I know people around here will be aware of is the Nazis. I wouldn't avoid an Iron Cross because it comes with the kits, and I wouldn't care if someone took offense at the bits supplied by GW.

I like your post.

The only symbol of issue -and I take this discussion of evidence that it's a non issue- was the use of the red star.

While I understand that Communist symbols should be avoided for different reasons, anyone who goes off on a red star really needs to lower their standard; it's a red fething star. Nothing explicitly Communist about that.

Maybe it's an American thing. While it's true that the star is associated with the Soviet Union, in Europe it's also associated with more mainstream leftists. Trade Unions, social democrats etc.

Oh I dunno Test, its more a colour thing, red equates with socialism and equality - not so much the star, find me a "relatively mainstream" lefty party that uses the star?
They dont - they use red and white, sure, but to say its a leftist symbol imho is a stretch.
Most mainstream left parties wouldnt even want to assoc themselves with the Star, sincs as you said its seen as ultra "commy" or right wing.
Most will use the red/white/black colur though.

Note that communist symbology is indeed illegal in certain former WP countries. I'd say calling people stupid or pussies for not liking a symbol of an oppressive regime they themselves lived under kind of insensitive, although I certainly wouldn't want them banned.

That said, I wouldn't use either of those (especially the ugly cross star) because in general, heavy-handed use of real life symbols in 40k looks silly and uncreative. Simple stuff like the Ultramarine omega or the Templar cross (although even that stretches belief) are well and good, but having a sector of Space Russians and Space Germans using an iron cross with a red star, or Space Ashkenazis using a recolored star of David, is a little much. That said, the whole Sturmkrieg project is already a little too much imho, and as a native speaker of a german dialect and a student of russian is a bit difficult to take seriously. There's already multiple factions of space russians and space germans in the IoM and they manage to be a lot more creative with it. Hell; there's even an army of not-germans from a planet called Krieg.

I am apparently not in the right frame of mind for this thread, because when I saw the OP, I thought Black Templars and Sisters of Battle - I think there's a SoB symbol with a red star as part of it, or I could be thinking of a red heart and some sort of other star... I dunno. I'll try to find a transfer sheet.

Found a pic of the transfer sheet.

http://bitzbarn.com/oscommerce/catalog/images/SOBDecals.jpg

Apparently I was remembering a mix of both. There's a red flower with red points between its five petals, and a red heart on a white... whatever the Black Templar symbol is. The white part is kinda hard to see - I have a decent monitor and I had to squint and lean in.

Edit: In any case, I'm gonna go curl up over there. :: points out of the thread ::